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Author Topic: No Sync, Possible SNR issues. But Stats look OK ???????  (Read 10804 times)

DSR

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No Sync, Possible SNR issues. But Stats look OK ???????
« on: January 22, 2007, 01:17:39 PM »

I have been on Tesco ADSL for nearly two years. The first 12 months were fine, but the last 12 months have been full of dropped connections and periods of no ADSL for 3 days at a time.  I have spent the past year talking to Tescos tech and have never got anywhere.
 
The problem appears to be a SNR issue with the line.  I loose sync ( flashing light syndrome is what I call it ! )
 
I have had no ADSL for the past 2 weeks due to this issue.
 
 
Here is what I have tried.
 
I use both the standard Speedtouch 330 USB modem and the Belkin F5D7633.  ( The speedtouch seems to work at much lower SNR levels then the Belkin ).  My house wiring has been stripped right back to the incoming twisted pair on the BT test ( master socket ).  I have tried various filters and removed all loading on the line so only the modem is connected.
I have checked for RFI  and other electrical interference and found nothing that could cause any issues.
BUT..... if you check out my log files for both modems here are the SNR figures
 
                    DownStream    UpStream   

Noise Margin  17.3                27.0
Output Power  19.6               11.9
Attenuation      44.0               24.0



Any ideas !


( Tesco refuse to refer the fault to BT, so I am stuck ! )_


I get service around 30 minutes a day, so bare with me because I cannot always be online :(


Many thanks
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mr_chris

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Re: No Sync, Possible SNR issues. But Stats look OK ???????
« Reply #1 on: January 22, 2007, 02:04:59 PM »

Hi and welcome to the forum. Sorry to hear of your problems, and the fact Tesco aren't doing anything to help you.

As you say, your stats look pretty normal and certainly wouldn't be the cause of loss of sync for a few days.

If you've spent a year talking to Tesco's helpdesk, then you are a lot more patient than me! Having tried two different modems, I would be inclined to agree with you that it's a fault on your line.

Have you tried the quiet line test - dial 17070 and select the appropriate option (I think it's 2) and see if there's any background noise on your line - both in times when there is sync and when there isn't.

If that comes out ok, you have a few courses of action:

1. Send a written letter to Tesco explaining what's happened, and see what comes of it.
2. Complain and put your case to OFCOM and see what (if anything) they do about it.
3. Not sure if you can raise a fault on the line with BT, since if your telephone service is ok, and BT aren't your ISP, it's all a bit disconnected on that front within the BT group, and you may end up going round in circles.

If these fail, you have some more drastic options:
1. Appeal to the nature of BT's CEO by emailing him directly without complaining, given BT haven't really done anything wrong at this stage... (yes he or his office will respond). I won't tell you his email address but his name is Ben Verwaayen and his email is in the form of firstname.lastname @ bt.com ;) - I'd only do this as a last resort though, to be honest.

2. Move to an ISP who does actually care and who will raise the problem to BT for you!

Apart from that, I'm not really sure - it sounds like you're having a bit of a nightmare with this, and there's no way this could be called an acceptable broadband service. Failing Tesco, OFCOM should be the ones who sort this out.

Good luck and keep us up to date :)
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Chris

DSR

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Re: No Sync, Possible SNR issues. But Stats look OK ???????
« Reply #2 on: January 22, 2007, 03:55:15 PM »

Many thanks for that.

This is one of the rare moments I have connected !

I will carry out the quiet line test and look at the other actions ;)


 A quick addition to this post.  Is there a program like Router Stats that will work with the Belkin F5D7633 ?   This Router seems to have its SNR figures in Java and Routerstats see's the text has an empty field.

I would be intrested to see if the SNR figures dive bomb just prior to sync getting lost .


« Last Edit: January 22, 2007, 05:21:00 PM by DSR »
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DSR

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Re: No Sync, Possible SNR issues. But Stats look OK ???????
« Reply #3 on: February 01, 2007, 09:32:48 AM »

Update.

We finally got BT Wholesale to look at the problem.  They found the line to be noisy ( sitting on average at 7db ) they tested the line from the house to the road cover, then to the local cab and then to the exchange.  They found a spare unused line running from our house back to the exchange and connected to that but the problem still persisted.

So we now have two lines that have low SNR.  YET all our neighbours lines work fine and they go through the same junction in the street !

The house and are are a new development just under 3 years old.

BT Wholesale said they are allowed to do a limited set of changes and after that the provider or ourselves have to pay for any more additional work. They are now going to sign my line off as NOT Broadband enabled meaning I will lose the ability to have broadband in my home ( even though ADSL Max should still work with its 6db noise level )


Any ideas !
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havelock

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Re: No Sync, Possible SNR issues. But Stats look OK ???????
« Reply #4 on: February 01, 2007, 10:08:43 AM »

If you're on 2Mb broadband, switch to Max, or a slower static line,

A regrade from 2Mbit -> 1Mbit  should give your SNR an increase of 3-6Db, though to be honest i'd consider switching to another ISP before you do because of the poor tech support you've had. If you're already on 512k then ADSLMax may sync at 288kbps to give you a stable connection.

If openreach told you they were going to flag your line you only have 5 working days to get Tesco to cancel the cease order they might have placed - basically if you accept that you will make do with intermittent connection then they'll leave your BB line on.

Another option is to see if NTL/Telewest cable install broadband in your area, as this is provided over a separate cable.

Rgds
Havelock
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DSR

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Re: No Sync, Possible SNR issues. But Stats look OK ???????
« Reply #5 on: February 01, 2007, 10:46:31 AM »

I am on 1 meg at present ( even though my Modem / Router keeps showing me to be on 2 meg for some unknown reason ).  Openreach have said they will flag my line and Tesco wont act ( I have already tried to get them to either downgrade me to 512, switch me to ADSL Max of cancel the cease order ).

The Openreach engineer claimed my line has degraded ( WHAT !!! After 3 years !  ) So in effect a new 5000 house development is going to have it residents all drop off ADSL like flies over the next few months because the cable will only last for 3 years .  :no:
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kitz

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Re: No Sync, Possible SNR issues. But Stats look OK ???????
« Reply #6 on: February 01, 2007, 05:41:49 PM »

>> I am on 1 meg at present

If your line is syncing at 2272 then you certainly are on 2Mb.  iirc Tesco used to put customers on 2Mb and throttle them back to 1Mb from their end.

So although Tesco may say you are on 1Mb, as far as your line goes its 2Mb.

TBH Im very surprised that the engineer hasn't looked at the possibility of reducing your line so that it syncs at a lower speed, but increases your SNR Margin.

From what you say I dont think perhaps that the engineer has been as helpful as he could be and has taken an easy router by "writing off" your line.

I'm also in agreement with the other guys that your ISP has not been as helpful in this matter as they could be.

If I were you I would contact ben verwayeen to see if he can help. (see chris's post).
He's very broadband orientated - several years ago the adsl campaign stuff was kind of his baby.  Although he wont necessarirly respond himself, your mail will at least hopefully go to someone in the right dept who may be able to help you.
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havelock

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Re: No Sync, Possible SNR issues. But Stats look OK ???????
« Reply #7 on: February 02, 2007, 12:27:43 AM »

It's frustrating but not uncommon to be hearing this sort of thing since openreach and BTWholesale officially split. It seems that BTW took all the decent staff to use backend and openreach are missing appointments, not testing for reported faults, blaming customers equipment and the ISP - basically anything to avoid actually admitting there is a fault and fixing it.

If your line is in the progress of a Cease, then the best course of action I belive would be to allow your contract with tesco to lapse, and order a static low speed line, or adslmax with someone else (look for UK based support and 0800/0845 rate tech support numbers)

In terms of line rates, 2Mbit allows attenuation <47db, 1Mbit is good at <62Db and 512k is partially rate adaptive, and will vary the upload speed to try and keep you in sync.

Let us know how you get on - Fingers crossed!

Havelock
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DSR

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Re: No Sync, Possible SNR issues. But Stats look OK ???????
« Reply #8 on: February 02, 2007, 10:11:38 AM »



TBH Im very surprised that the engineer hasn't looked at the possibility of reducing your line so that it syncs at a lower speed, but increases your SNR Margin.

From what you say I dont think perhaps that the engineer has been as helpful as he could be and has taken an easy router by "writing off" your line.



I was downgraded to 512 after my last post.  I still have the same issues.  SNR is now between 4db and 8db


ALthough I have had issues over the last year there have been periods ( 5 months solid ) where my 1 meg ( 2 meg ) line was rock solid.  So I would hope that my line will support 1 meg and this is a line fault , rather then a distance issue forcing me onto 512.

Rat run to exchange was confirmed at just under 2.5KM





If I were you I would contact ben verwayeen to see if he can help. (see chris's post).

More about this later, but at present, this route looks very promising.


« Last Edit: February 02, 2007, 10:16:58 AM by DSR »
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kitz

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Re: No Sync, Possible SNR issues. But Stats look OK ???????
« Reply #9 on: February 03, 2007, 12:48:13 PM »

>> I was downgraded to 512 after my last post.  I still have the same issues.  SNR is now between 4db and 8db

At least a downgrade is better than total cutoff...  but I would have hoped that it would have improved your SNR Margin a bit more.

Are you managing to get online ok now... and is the line more stable on the lower speed.

It would seem that this has been an obvious deterioration of the actual line back to the exchange and  there is only BT that can do anything about that :(

Please keep us informed about how it goes with Bens office
Good luck
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DSR

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Re: No Sync, Possible SNR issues. But Stats look OK ???????
« Reply #10 on: February 04, 2007, 12:30:54 PM »

Still no service, but progress is being made. (slow, but at least there is activity )
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DSR

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Re: No Sync, Possible SNR issues. But Stats look OK ???????
« Reply #11 on: February 12, 2007, 11:13:10 AM »

Update

I contacted Ben as was suggested, and he took it very seriously to the point where six Openreach engineers turned up and worked solid all the following Friday and then all day Saturday.

All there tests showed the line to be perfect. They walked the nodes and physically checked up to five pairs on the D side (cab to house).  I asked that they do a change back at the exchange .A change of port (Lift and shift) was carried out at the exchange last Monday and BINGO!

Although we were still on 512, it was a result.  Attenuation alternated between 40db and 15 db ( ??) another rat run test showed us to be 2.4 km from the exchange. SNR levels went from 6 db up to 28db.

This remained constant all week until our regrade back to 1 Meg took place last Friday.


After we were put back on 1Meg ( Tesco ISP at 2 meg, throttled back to 1 Meg ) we lost ADSL again !

We still have 40 db Attenuation, but SNR has dropped to 6db again


Our line is ok for 2 Meg, my neighbours are all on 2 Meg and there lines are fed from the same 20 pair bundle as ours.


PS. It took Tescos ( or BT ) one hour to drop us from 1 meg to 512, but 10 days to put us back !



Pretty much lost for ideas now
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mr_chris

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Re: No Sync, Possible SNR issues. But Stats look OK ???????
« Reply #12 on: February 13, 2007, 02:56:47 AM »

> six Openreach engineers turned up and worked solid all the following Friday and then all day Saturday.

Like buses... they all come along at once ;)

> Attenuation alternated between 40db and 15 db ( ??)

You have a right to be confused about that - it isn't right. If you're 2.4km from the exchange then 40 sounds a bit high, but 15 sounds a bit low! It should be somewhere between the two. Very very very VERY roughly - attenuation seems to be about 10dB for every 1km of line length.

What did the openreach engineers have to say about it?

> Our line is ok for 2 Meg

Obviously it isn't! The question though, is WHY isn't it. Did they swap your line onto a different pair at all? Do you know any of your neighbours well enough to ask them for their SNR and attenuation figures?

> Pretty much lost for ideas now

Well, don't give up. If it really is broke again, and Tesco won't raise it through the normal BT channels again, you could always email Ben back again?
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Chris

DSR

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Re: No Sync, Possible SNR issues. But Stats look OK ???????
« Reply #13 on: February 13, 2007, 09:47:15 AM »

I had another visit from BT yesterday ( I am still in contact with thee person looking at this fault  ;) ).

They checked the Stats at my drop line and the SNR was 4db with thousands of errors.  They then moved one node back (there are two nodes between my house and the Cab ) and they found the SNR to be 27dbwith no errors.   So they have booked a cable pull through for tomorrow.


Logically, it looks to be this length of cable breaking down BUT.  We have had this red herring before,  so I remain unconvinced at this point that a 40 meter run of cable only 2 years old has broke down  Its a 20 pair cable feeding 6 other ADSL enabled lines, all 2 Meg of which most are working fine . There are five spare pairs in this cable of which none work !, so am I the most unlucky person in the world to have all the duff pairs in a 20 bundle cable . LOL !


Each time a check like this is made, a different set of results occur.  I am on first name terms with the engineers and they share all the data with me, so I am 100% fully in the loop.


The engineers are pulling there hair out.
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mr_chris

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Re: No Sync, Possible SNR issues. But Stats look OK ???????
« Reply #14 on: February 13, 2007, 10:17:57 AM »

Quote from: DSR
I am on first name terms with the engineers and they share all the data with me, so I am 100% fully in the loop.


The engineers are pulling there hair out.

At least progress is being made and they've got a cable pull booked. Fingers crossed for you :)
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Chris
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