Kitz ADSL Broadband Information
adsl spacer  
Support this site
Home Broadband ISPs Tech Routers Wiki Forum
 
     
   Compare ISP   Rate your ISP
   Glossary   Glossary
 
Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  

News:

Pages: [1] 2 3 ... 5

Author Topic: FTTC DLM Caution Counter Resets  (Read 13176 times)

ejs

  • Kitizen
  • ****
  • Posts: 2078
FTTC DLM Caution Counter Resets
« on: November 07, 2017, 06:10:54 PM »

https://www.openreach.co.uk/orpg/home/updates/briefings/super-fastfibreaccessbriefings/super-fastfibreaccessbriefingsarticles/nga03917.do

Quote
This briefing is to inform all CPs of an interim solution for resetting Dynamic Line Management (DLM) caution counters.
Logged

burakkucat

  • Respected
  • Senior Kitizen
  • *
  • Posts: 38300
  • Over the Rainbow Bridge
    • The ELRepo Project
Re: FTTC DLM Caution Counter Resets
« Reply #1 on: November 07, 2017, 06:35:36 PM »

That is interesting.  :)

We now need someone who can log into the Openreach portal, read the full briefing and provide us with a synopsis thereof.
Logged
:cat:  100% Linux and, previously, Unix. Co-founder of the ELRepo Project.

Please consider making a donation to support the running of this site.

kitz

  • Administrator
  • Senior Kitizen
  • *
  • Posts: 33879
  • Trinity: Most guys do.
    • http://www.kitz.co.uk
Re: FTTC DLM Caution Counter Resets
« Reply #2 on: November 07, 2017, 07:12:56 PM »

Can't read what it says but afaik it's not finalised yet, so no point rushing to BTr or PN atm asking for a reset just yet.
Won't be like an Engineer reset that takes immediate effect, so I'm guessing it will be like the old 20CN requests which will be batch processed overnight.   
That leaves the question as to whether or not it will be able to remove banding.   I guess we will have to wait and see. 
Logged
Please do not PM me with queries for broadband help as I may not be able to respond.
-----
How to get your router line stats :: ADSL Exchange Checker

kitz

  • Administrator
  • Senior Kitizen
  • *
  • Posts: 33879
  • Trinity: Most guys do.
    • http://www.kitz.co.uk
Re: FTTC DLM Caution Counter Resets
« Reply #3 on: November 07, 2017, 10:04:19 PM »

A little bit more info.   

It's my understanding that this is currently an interim solution for GEA FTTC and as such is not currently available to all ISPs at the present time.
  • There is a strict maximum amount of lines that can be reset each day per ISP
  • Lines requested for reset must meet a certain criteria of improvement*
  • Requests are sent to Openreach who batch process overnight.
  • Reset will restore the line's default profile.**


Hopefully in time it will become a more automated process and available to all ISPs. 
Because of maximum limits and the required improvement criteria do not expect ISPs to be doing this just upon EU request as they will be rejected.

*  eg if DLM is currently limiting line to 48Mbps and the max attainable is 49.5Mbps then tough luck.
** Which means depending on cab type expect INP/Interleaving to be applied.  G.INP re-tx should be reapplied over a further period of days as per usual.
« Last Edit: November 07, 2017, 11:28:26 PM by kitz »
Logged
Please do not PM me with queries for broadband help as I may not be able to respond.
-----
How to get your router line stats :: ADSL Exchange Checker

Ixel

  • Kitizen
  • ****
  • Posts: 1282
Re: FTTC DLM Caution Counter Resets
« Reply #4 on: November 07, 2017, 10:46:56 PM »

One step closer to ISP's being able to reset DLM on FTTC. Good to hear.
Logged

WWWombat

  • Kitizen
  • ****
  • Posts: 1674
Re: FTTC DLM Caution Counter Resets
« Reply #5 on: November 07, 2017, 10:53:59 PM »

Caution Counters?

Am I right in thinking this is the counter mechanism that tracks how many days are required (of constant ILQ Green) before contemplating a DLM de-intervention step?
Logged

kitz

  • Administrator
  • Senior Kitizen
  • *
  • Posts: 33879
  • Trinity: Most guys do.
    • http://www.kitz.co.uk
Re: FTTC DLM Caution Counter Resets
« Reply #6 on: November 07, 2017, 11:01:51 PM »

Yes. 
I think the theory is that by resetting the caution counters, then you're clearing out of all of the 'x' no of ILQ green requirements steps before it goes back to 'normal'.

Thus why I'm waiting to see if it does also remove banding.
Logged
Please do not PM me with queries for broadband help as I may not be able to respond.
-----
How to get your router line stats :: ADSL Exchange Checker

WWWombat

  • Kitizen
  • ****
  • Posts: 1674
Re: FTTC DLM Caution Counter Resets
« Reply #7 on: November 07, 2017, 11:08:50 PM »

Ta.

It feels like a strange, indirect step to offer CPs. Those CPs will tell their customers that they've done something, and things might improve in a few days...

I can understand how this is a positive move from Openreach, by allowing DLM to make a fast(er) new decision, without totally subverting DLM. However, I don't see it as a thing that is easy to describe to joe public.

But, if it does unblock banding, then it is absolutely a positive move.
Logged

kitz

  • Administrator
  • Senior Kitizen
  • *
  • Posts: 33879
  • Trinity: Most guys do.
    • http://www.kitz.co.uk
Re: FTTC DLM Caution Counter Resets
« Reply #8 on: November 07, 2017, 11:40:33 PM »

It feels like a strange, indirect step to offer CPs.

It also makes me wonder about the 2 types of DLM reset theory which I believe has been in use since ASSIA.
There's the Openreach engineer reset which is immediate and seems to take everything back as if the line was new & starting from scratch - complete with the up to 48hrs of no profile at all.
Then there's the one that they seem to do at a system level by someone sat in an office somewhere.  Is this how they currently do it,  by just resetting the caution counters?
Logged
Please do not PM me with queries for broadband help as I may not be able to respond.
-----
How to get your router line stats :: ADSL Exchange Checker

WWWombat

  • Kitizen
  • ****
  • Posts: 1674
Re: FTTC DLM Caution Counter Resets
« Reply #9 on: November 09, 2017, 12:07:24 AM »

Then there's the one that they seem to do at a system level by someone sat in an office somewhere.  Is this how they currently do it,  by just resetting the caution counters?

I wonder.

Do we have any evidence about whether operational changes to the line happen at the exact time someone pokes "under the hood", or do we see delays (where DLM would make the final decision)?

I thought we saw the former, but a disjoint behaviour might explain some of those cases where a member of public reports "ISP XXX said they'd reset DLM, but nothing happened".

Edit: This theory makes some sense. If you are wary of releasing any functionality at all to a CP, as BT are, wouldn't it make sense to run it internally first, while you still have complete control?
« Last Edit: November 09, 2017, 12:09:56 AM by WWWombat »
Logged

kitz

  • Administrator
  • Senior Kitizen
  • *
  • Posts: 33879
  • Trinity: Most guys do.
    • http://www.kitz.co.uk
Re: FTTC DLM Caution Counter Resets
« Reply #10 on: November 11, 2017, 12:12:42 AM »

Not sure.   Was it broadstairs who recently got a DLM reset by Openreach at system level rather than by an engineer.

The point about overnight processing is not so much about the DLM still making any decisions, but rather that things are not fully automated.
In days of old on the 20CN system if the ISP wanted to get a DLM reset they had to contact BTW - usually by phone.   Someone at BTw then put the circuit ID (or whatever) on a list.   This list would then be run overnight using an automated script.

Sounds like this new interim solution may be similar.    ISP has to email OR with details of the lines which they want resetting by 3pm. 
OR then check that SP is keeping within rules of max number of 1000 per day and that the line is within the improvement criteria. List is processed overnight. 

>> "ISP XXX said they'd reset DLM, but nothing happened".

I believe its one shot with no feedback.   If they miss the deadline, or if line fails to meet the criteria.. then nothing happens. 
Logged
Please do not PM me with queries for broadband help as I may not be able to respond.
-----
How to get your router line stats :: ADSL Exchange Checker

kitz

  • Administrator
  • Senior Kitizen
  • *
  • Posts: 33879
  • Trinity: Most guys do.
    • http://www.kitz.co.uk
Re: FTTC DLM Caution Counter Resets
« Reply #11 on: November 11, 2017, 12:25:38 AM »

btw whilst at the OR site also saw this...  which Im not sure if I like the look of.

https://www.openreach.co.uk/orpg/home/updates/briefings/super-fastfibreaccessbriefings/super-fastfibreaccessbriefingsarticles/nga03817.do

Could be an end to the Open Profile and straight to Interleave for all.   Not so much of a problem for Huawei's who then move on to G.INP.
However ECI cabs in some respects are currently immune to the Interleave by default.  It can be a PITA getting rid of INP as it is, so I can forsee that a lot of lines that normally would run quite well on ILQ amber without INP, having problems getting INP removed.

I'm not sure whether I do like it, because if a new line was behaving pretty badly DLM could (and would) immediately over-ride open profile.   Supposedly its because of complaints during the Open phase..  but seriously???  Most of the large ISPs resort to telling the EU it will settle in 10 days and still use the 'training phase' even though its not strictly true.   The line is at most on Open for 48hrs so someone would have to be pretty quick off the mark to think that an engineer would be there before DLM has kicked in on its own anyhow.  :-\
Logged
Please do not PM me with queries for broadband help as I may not be able to respond.
-----
How to get your router line stats :: ADSL Exchange Checker

broadstairs

  • Kitizen
  • ****
  • Posts: 3697
Re: FTTC DLM Caution Counter Resets
« Reply #12 on: November 11, 2017, 08:20:40 AM »

I am already suspicious of interleaving being the default on ECI cabs now. I have had a huge amount of trouble getting it removed only for DLM to put it back almost immediately and not remove it at all. I know my line can run well at amber ILQ and when G.INP was available on ECI my line ran exceptionally well at around 70000kbps, now the best I get is around  61000kbps with interleaving and exceptionally low error rates only just making double figure ES in 24 hours but DLM stubbornly refusing to remove interleaving.

Stuart
Logged
ISP:Vodafone Router:Vodafone Wi-Fi hub FTTP

skyeci

  • Kitizen
  • ****
  • Posts: 1383
    • Line stats
Re: FTTC DLM Caution Counter Resets
« Reply #13 on: November 11, 2017, 09:00:16 AM »

Try capping it at 54 on the ds. Worked for me. 8 days to get rid of it after waiting 5 weeks. I removed the cap after the removal and still on fast path with no issue.

broadstairs

  • Kitizen
  • ****
  • Posts: 3697
Re: FTTC DLM Caution Counter Resets
« Reply #14 on: November 11, 2017, 09:37:36 AM »

Try capping it at 54 on the ds. Worked for me. 8 days to get rid of it after waiting 5 weeks. I removed the cap after the removal and still on fast path with no issue.

If I'm running with barely 10-20 or so ES/day I dont see how reducing the speed will get DLM to do anything. My line is unquestionably running very well in terms of very low error rates and DLM wont do anything. Just seems pointless to me unless anyone else can give me an explanation as to why DLM might intervene, so I dont intend to try it until I have an explanation as to why it might work.

Stuart
Logged
ISP:Vodafone Router:Vodafone Wi-Fi hub FTTP
Pages: [1] 2 3 ... 5