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Author Topic: Possibilities if more than a mile from cabinet  (Read 4110 times)

AnnieMacD

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Possibilities if more than a mile from cabinet
« on: October 19, 2017, 05:53:00 PM »

I live in a very remote area in the north-west of Scotland (Applecross, Wester Ross).  We have download speeds of 0.5 Mbps and upload of 0.2 Mbps (yes, really).  Very recently, two green cabinets have appeared – one is just outside the exchange, and the other is a mile north.  I live 1.5 miles south of the exchange.

About three weeks ago I went to the website www.hie.co.uk (Highlands and Islands Enterprise which is responsible for the roll-out) and entered my phone number.  No luck – message saying I’m on an EO line and fibre has not been rolled out yet.  I then put in a neighbour’s number (she lives about 0.5 miles from the cabinet) and whoa!   “Great News! You are connected to cabinet number 1 on Applecross exchange. It looks like you can get fibre broadband straightaway with predicted speed of up to 48.79 Mbps (FTTC). …”  I called her immediately and, to cut a long story short, she is now connected as are all her immediate neighbours within 1 mile of the exchange.
 
So, to get to my point and questions.  Firstly, please be patient as I just started yesterday to try and unravel the technicalities and possibilities for the rest of us.  It seems impossible to find anything out from BT and I submitted questions to Openreach but they say it can take up to 28 days to respond.

Second, I frequently see references to the magical 1 mile radius from the cabinet, but logic would dictate that nothing particular happens at a mile so….  Online I found a graph which maps Downlink connection speed v Distance from street cabinet.  I reckon that, according to this graph, at 1.5 miles from the cabinet I could get approx. 12Mbps download speed.  Compared with my current 0.5 Mbps, this sounds like heaven to me!

Thirdly, I don’t want to jeopardise more cabinets being installed south of the exchange, but, as no fibre cable has been laid, I don’t think it’s going to happen any time soon. 

My questions are: 1) is it possible for BT (the only provider here) to connect a group of customers who live more than 1 mile from the cabinet to that cabinet?  2) Will they do it?  3) What will the customers need to do (eg., I assume we need updated Home Hubs)? 4) Are there any technical issues we should know about? 5) If it's possible, how can we convince them to do it?

I’m aware that Ofcom requires a minimum of 30Mbps for a service to qualify as ‘super-fast’ but we have been paying BT’s ‘standard’ rate for the last 10 years for a measly 0.5 Mbps, so it would be nice to stay on the same contract that is supposed to cover up to 17 Mbps anyway.

Thanks for any advice and information you guys can give me.  This is the only site I found that actually has some proper information rather than trying to sell something!
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gt94sss2

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Re: Possibilities if more than a mile from cabinet
« Reply #1 on: October 19, 2017, 06:26:31 PM »

My questions are: 1) is it possible for BT (the only provider here) to connect a group of customers who live more than 1 mile from the cabinet to that cabinet?  2) Will they do it?  3) What will the customers need to do (eg., I assume we need updated Home Hubs)? 4) Are there any technical issues we should know about? 5) If it's possible, how can we convince them to do it?

Welcome to the forum.

You may find https://www.telecom-tariffs.co.uk/codelook.htm a useful site (as well as http://www.dslchecker.bt.com)

Codelook shows that Cabinet 1 was activated on 7th September 2017  and that some other cabinets on that exchange are being installed/going live in 2018. (where a cabinet is called E x - they are exchange only lines being put into a cabinet so they can then get FTTC)

The FTTC infrastructure is installed by Openreach but as its being funded by a BDUK public subsidy in your area you need to ask Highlands and Islands Enterprise about their roll out plans for your specific address - not Openreach/BT - as HIE decide where fibre is rolled out.

As such, you would be better off chasing HIE for news. The Scottish Government is also looking at expanding the areas HIE will eventually cover.

Finally, the UK Government is planning on introducing a national 10MB minimum download universal service obligation by 2020.

Openreach would be willing to discuss hooking up a specific area but it will take time and you/your neighbours would need to financially contribute - so its not a quick or cheap solution - and you're probably better off waiting for the USO/HIE to get to you.

I note there may also be a wireless internet soution available in Apple Cross
« Last Edit: October 19, 2017, 06:33:26 PM by gt94sss2 »
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Black Sheep

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Re: Possibilities if more than a mile from cabinet
« Reply #2 on: October 19, 2017, 06:54:01 PM »

Just for info purposes .... although Ofcom perceive 30+Mbps as 'Super-fast' ..... the Government don't. They say 24+Mbps is.

I gather you reside in Camusterrach ???
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AnnieMacD

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Re: Possibilities if more than a mile from cabinet
« Reply #3 on: October 19, 2017, 06:59:03 PM »

Just for info purposes .... although Ofcom perceive 30+Mbps as 'Super-fast' ..... the Government don't. They say 24+Mbps is.

I gather you reside in Camusterrach ???
I wish I was in Camusterrach - they are all on Cabinet 1.  I'm in Culduie which is 1 mile south  :(
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Black Sheep

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Re: Possibilities if more than a mile from cabinet
« Reply #4 on: October 19, 2017, 07:23:18 PM »

Hmmm ..... a very rough measure of the distance from PCP1 to mid-Culduie is approx. 1.6miles. ..... the 'feed' for your locality appears to be mainly overhead cable (Aerial cable), which runs almost parallel to the main road back into Applecross.
 
As such, the copper wire poundage (thickness) is likely to be 0.5mm, as opposed to if the 'feed' was underground fed, and there could be a chance it would be 0.9mm poundage. The higher the poundage = the better the speed.

This is purely my own opinion and a bit of a guess, but Miltown (where Cab2 is situated to the North), appears to be fed purely via underground duct and this would make it easier 'blowing in' a fibre cable from the Exchange. Whereas as mooted, your locality has a high amount of overhead feed cable (telegraph poles).

My only other concern would be that you should be getting more than 0.5Mbps download even on your current broadband connection, based on your distance from the Exchange ??
I can only assume you are on ADSL broadband (up to 8Mbps), as opposed to ADSL2/2+ (up to 24Mbps) ??? There is a way of checking to see if your Exchange has ADSL2+ technology available, and I'm sure someone will be along shortly to enlighten you ??.   :)
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WWWombat

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Re: Possibilities if more than a mile from cabinet
« Reply #5 on: October 19, 2017, 08:05:23 PM »

Just for info purposes .... although Ofcom perceive 30+Mbps as 'Super-fast' ..... the Government don't. They say 24+Mbps is.

The phase 1 projects got to pick & choose between 24 and 30, after the approval of state aid (on the basis that they'd already started).

Round 2 EU approval is now 30Mbps, and so is government guidance:
https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/2016-nbs-overview

Presumably the ~1% of premises that ended up between 24 and 30Mbps after phase 1 would qualify through speed for inclusion in the new phase, but would unlikely qualify through the "step change" requirement.
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AnnieMacD

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Re: Possibilities if more than a mile from cabinet
« Reply #6 on: October 19, 2017, 08:08:49 PM »

Hmmm ..... a very rough measure of the distance from PCP1 to mid-Culduie is approx. 1.6miles. ..... the 'feed' for your locality appears to be mainly overhead cable (Aerial cable), which runs almost parallel to the main road back into Applecross. 
Yes, that's correct - my house is 1.5 miles from the cab but the feed is not overhead cable - it's underground, or more correctly in some parts ON ground as you can see it  ::)
 
Quote
This is purely my own opinion and a bit of a guess, but Miltown (where Cab2 is situated to the North), appears to be fed purely via underground duct and this would make it easier 'blowing in' a fibre cable from the Exchange. Whereas as mooted, your locality has a high amount of overhead feed cable (telegraph poles).
They connected Cab2 this week to the Exchange.

Quote
My only other concern would be that you should be getting more than 0.5Mbps download even on your current broadband connection, based on your distance from the Exchange ??
I can only assume you are on ADSL broadband (up to 8Mbps), as opposed to ADSL2/2+ (up to 24Mbps) ??? There is a way of checking to see if your Exchange has ADSL2+ technology available, and I'm sure someone will be along shortly to enlighten you ??.   :)
Almost certainly ADSL  :'(
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Black Sheep

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Re: Possibilities if more than a mile from cabinet
« Reply #7 on: October 19, 2017, 08:17:30 PM »

I see. The cable prints DO show a UG (Underground) feed (as well as the overhead aerial cable), but it shows it as 'stumped' ... ie: not connected.

The electronic prints are only a guide though. Boots on the ground is the only true way to determine how localities are fed.  :)

The downside to the UG cable if it is actually connected, is that it is what we call DIG (Direct in ground) cable ... ie: it doesn't run through ducts (hollow tubes), it literally lies in the ground or on the top of it  ;) ;). This is the case for the entirety of its length, according to the prints.

It's all against you I'm afraid ??
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AnnieMacD

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Re: Possibilities if more than a mile from cabinet
« Reply #8 on: October 19, 2017, 08:23:50 PM »

@gt94sss2.  Thanks for the links.  They all just say that fibre is not available.  I will contact HIE and try to get information from them.

How did you find out that Cab1 went live on 7th September and what the plan is for 2018?  I have no idea where to look for that kind of information.  But the more I know, the more ammunition I have to get something done.  Most of us here are self-employed and use the internet as the main method of doing business.  It's beyond frustrating to work at the speeds we have and, strangely enough, it makes it worse to know that you near neighbours have speed in excess of 80x of yours and they are just watching movies.   >:(
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AnnieMacD

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Re: Possibilities if more than a mile from cabinet
« Reply #9 on: October 19, 2017, 08:28:44 PM »

I see. The cable prints DO show a UG (Underground) feed (as well as the overhead aerial cable), but it shows it as 'stumped' ... ie: not connected.

The electronic prints are only a guide though. Boots on the ground is the only true way to determine how localities are fed.  :)

The downside to the UG cable if it is actually connected, is that it is what we call DIG (Direct in ground) cable ... ie: it doesn't run through ducts (hollow tubes), it literally lies in the ground or on the top of it  ;) ;). This is the case for the entirety of its length, according to the prints.

It's all against you I'm afraid ??

I know.  There is no duct or conduit here - the road workers have been known to cut the whole cable while inserting a cattle grid.  It took about 6 days to get phone and internet back. 

But what of my question of getting us hooked up to Cab1 and maybe get 10Mbps?  Is that not a brilliant idea? 
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WWWombat

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Re: Possibilities if more than a mile from cabinet
« Reply #10 on: October 19, 2017, 08:36:04 PM »

My questions are: 1) is it possible for BT (the only provider here) to connect a group of customers who live more than 1 mile from the cabinet to that cabinet?  2) Will they do it?  3) What will the customers need to do (eg., I assume we need updated Home Hubs)? 4) Are there any technical issues we should know about? 5) If it's possible, how can we convince them to do it?

1) This would be a copper rearrangement, and such things have been known to happen. They're rare even with subsidies available.

2) However, BT would only be able to claim subsidy for the work if you ended up above the superfast threshold. Without that subsidy, there's no chance of it happening.

More likely, BT would consider adding a whole new cabinet - an all-in-one that acts as both PCP wiring cabinet, and the FTTC DSLAM, or a smaller FTTRN device. It would need enough customers, though.

For some examples of a place where this has been happening, take a look at that Codelook website (linked in post #2), and search for location "Leyburn", then exchange "Leyburn, North Yorkshire", then click on "all NN cabinets".

That exchange started out with 9 cabinets, and all of them have been converted to FTTC via the BDUK project. The other 8 cabinets (10-20, missing some numbers) have been added as "infill" to cope with the EO lines in different locations, or the long lines off other cabs. Cab 10 was one of the pilot FTTRN nodes (supports 16 lines), so is perhaps a little special.

It should give an idea of the kind of changes that BT can end up doing as they get ever harder-pressed to cover premises.

3) Whatever gain comes from FTTC only comes via VDSL2, which requires a different router/modem.

4) Whatever happens, it is most likely through co-operation with the HIE Broadband project. They may react better to a community coordinator.

As someone else said, there is the possibility to go via BT's community fibre partnership, but you'd need to provide some of the funding yourselves. I don't know if HIE has a part of their project that works with communities in this way, and partly funds the venture - some local authorities have started this up, but it is a a relatively new idea.

5) Money. If HIE won't fund you, it is because they can use the same money to reach more people in another location.

and, strangely enough, it makes it worse to know that you near neighbours have speed in excess of 80x of yours and they are just watching movies.   >:(

Do you have line of sight to any of them? Looking on streetview, I suspect not, but if you did, then you could have a go at a point-to-point wireless link
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Black Sheep

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Re: Possibilities if more than a mile from cabinet
« Reply #11 on: October 19, 2017, 08:40:19 PM »

Not my forte, I'm afraid .......... however from a personal point of view I don't know why they haven't already connected your DP's to PCP1 ??

I know from experience that sometimes the DP's ARE connected to the new FTTC Cabs but, don't get logged onto the records for whatever reason ??
Conversely, we have also had a recent problem whereby the 'Availability checker'  said a certain DP WAS connected to the FTTC Cab, but in reality it wasn't.  :(

Without knowing the true attenuation of your circuit (as opposed to distance by mtrs), it's hard to say exactly what speeds you would get on FTTC or indeed ADSL2+ ?? Going off just distance-based theories, it would be pretty much the same speed from either technologies ??
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AnnieMacD

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Re: Possibilities if more than a mile from cabinet
« Reply #12 on: October 19, 2017, 09:02:29 PM »


Do you have line of sight to any of them? Looking on streetview, I suspect not, but if you did, then you could have a go at a point-to-point wireless link
No line of sight - it's very hilly here.   As for a community co-ordinator - hmm, maybe another job I can take on. 
Thanks for your detailed response, I shall study it and try to learn all the terms and acronyms.  I'll also look Leyburn up and see what they did there.
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WWWombat

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Re: Possibilities if more than a mile from cabinet
« Reply #13 on: October 19, 2017, 09:12:10 PM »

Not my forte, I'm afraid .......... however from a personal point of view I don't know why they haven't already connected your DP's to PCP1 ??

Maybe there is some unstated plan for infill, but the value-for-money case would be worsened if some premises were temporarily uplifted in speed. Say they didn't quite reach superfast levels, so wouldn't earn subsidy in the first PCP, but got high enough that an infill wouldn't count as a sufficient step change, so they can't earn subsidy there either?

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Black Sheep

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Re: Possibilities if more than a mile from cabinet
« Reply #14 on: October 19, 2017, 09:20:19 PM »

Fair point W3 ....  :)
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