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Author Topic: Forum mail problem for those using Microsoft email addresses  (Read 3619 times)

kitz

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Forum mail problem for those using Microsoft email addresses
« on: October 07, 2017, 10:39:09 AM »

A heads up that email notifications to any of the following domains are being bounced

@live.com
@outlook.com
@hotmail.com

This is affecting the registration confirmation for new forum members and notifications for subscribed topics & personal messages.
I'm not quite sure why as it doesn't appear to be specific to my server.  All the usual blacklist checks on both the domain name and server IP are clean. 

I've contacted my hosts who advised me that they think its Microsoft's 'Smart Filter' being over-zealous as they've had hundreds of others seeing the same issue and quote "I doubt its only with us". They are awaiting a response from Microsoft in an attempt to sort this.

In the meantime I'm manually activating new registrations for those accounts which appear to be genuine with known UK ISP IP addresses, but it does mean those using an outlook.com etc email address won't receive the automated welcome email.

*** Update.  Issue resolved 08-10-17.  Mail now being delivered. ***
« Last Edit: October 11, 2017, 04:16:54 PM by kitz »
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kitz

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Re: Forum mail problem for those using Microsoft email addresses
« Reply #1 on: October 07, 2017, 03:10:45 PM »

Brilliant.   This is what Microsoft say   :mad:

Quote
We have reviewed your IP  and determined that messages are being filtered based on the recommendations of the SmartScreen® Filter. Email filtering is based on many factors, but primarily it's due to mail content and recipient interaction with that mail.
Because of the proprietary nature of SmartScreen® and because SmartScreen® Filter technology is always adapting and learning more about what is and isn't unwanted mail, it is not possible for us to offer specific advice about improving your mail content. However, in general SmartScreen® Filter evaluates specific words or characteristics from each e-mail message and weights them, based on their likelihood to indicate that a message is unwanted or legitimate mail.
Unfortunately, after reviewing the information you provided and in compliance with our mail policies, we are unable to offer immediate mitigation for your deliverability issue.
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kitz

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Re: Forum mail problem for those using Microsoft email addresses
« Reply #2 on: October 07, 2017, 03:15:31 PM »

I've no idea what that means, but reading between the lines could this occur if someone subscribes to a load of topics, then just bins then when they get them.

I now have no way of re-earning my SNDS reputation, because no mail will be delivered.  What a stupid system.   Trying to research this and I am far from alone.
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roseway

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Re: Forum mail problem for those using Microsoft email addresses
« Reply #3 on: October 07, 2017, 03:41:39 PM »

A system that's intended to protect users ends up penalising innocent people. Great. :wall:
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kitz

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Re: Forum mail problem for those using Microsoft email addresses
« Reply #4 on: October 07, 2017, 04:05:51 PM »

I'm not best pleased because there seems no way of reversing this.   
Not only does it affect forum mail but because its IP based, also main site mail and my personal mail.

I've been firing out mail between my hosts, jumping through hoops and trying to research SNDS & JMRP but its looking like there's nothing much further I can do.
Last email about to go back to my hosts in an attempt with them to plead again to MS, but other than that  Im not sure what else I can do.

If any active members have registered with the above email addresses from the above domains can you please turn off any subscriptions, because for the time being this is only making matters worse. :(
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Ronski

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Re: Forum mail problem for those using Microsoft email addresses
« Reply #5 on: October 07, 2017, 04:22:20 PM »

I've no idea what that means, but reading between the lines could this occur if someone subscribes to a load of topics, then just bins then when they get them.

I think it means it's reading the content of the email and deciding whether it is spam or not, in conjunction with what the user does with it. Hows its supposed to learn if nobody can tell it when its wrong I don't know.

I often just delete notifications that a thread has been updated, as once I've seen the email I often just go to my browser and look at the unread posts, rather than open another browser tab by clicking the link in the email.
« Last Edit: October 07, 2017, 04:25:44 PM by Ronski »
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Bowdon

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Re: Forum mail problem for those using Microsoft email addresses
« Reply #6 on: October 07, 2017, 04:33:37 PM »

I've noticed this happening more and more with outlook / hotmail in general.

I've subscribed to a few newsletters and a couple of them which I dont open very often after reading the subject line keeps getting put in to the junk mail. The emails I get from GOG keep doing this. I keep saying its not junk. But after 2 or 3 further emails i find them back in the junk section again. It's very annoying.

I bet this is catching a lot of people. But more noticable in smaller groups with email notifications.
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kitz

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Re: Forum mail problem for those using Microsoft email addresses
« Reply #7 on: October 07, 2017, 04:38:29 PM »

Most of the stuff its bouncing is subscriptions

This is a typical one, but I notice there's a couple of password resets and people trying to sign up too.

Quote
A reply has been posted to a topic you are watching by 22over7.

View the reply at: http://forum.kitz.co.uk/index.php?topic=20052.new;topicseen#new

Unsubscribe to this topic by using this link: http://forum.kitz.co.uk/index.php?action=
More replies may be posted, but you won't receive any more notifications until you read the topic.

Regards,
The Kitz Forum Team.

The message I get is this

Quote
A message that you sent could not be delivered to one or more of its recipients. This is a permanent error. The following address(es) failed:

 user@outlook.com
    host outlook-com.olc.protection.outlook.com [65.54.188.94]
    SMTP error from remote mail server after pipelined MAIL FROM:<kitz.co.uk> SIZE=2629:
    550 SC-001 (BAY004-MC2F10) Unfortunately, messages weren't sent.

The ban is definitely IP specific.   I do not send out spam.   My host have checked mail logs - volume is low and quote "we werent able to encounter any suspicious mail influx from your IP" which they have told MS.   I am not on any blacklists anywhere and its purely down to their stupid system.

Ohhhhhh as I type Ive just got a reply back from my rant to Vidahost.    Get this

Quote
Recently Microsoft introduced a new system called SNDS, it's a smart filter that filters IPs based on some algorithms which are not disclaimed by Microsoft. Unfortunately, the SNDS system is not without it's flaws, every provider is complaining of issues with it without any actual reasons behind it.

/snip/

the IP is already added to SNDS and there are no DATA. Where there is no DATA it means Microsoft have no reasons to block the IP.

I'll chase the issue further with them


 :wall: :wall: :wall:


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kitz

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Re: Forum mail problem for those using Microsoft email addresses
« Reply #8 on: October 07, 2017, 04:43:36 PM »

I often just delete notifications that a thread has been updated, as once I've seen the email I often just go to my browser and look at the unread posts, rather than open another browser tab by clicking the link in the email.

I think thats what quite a lot of people do, yet their smart filter determines based on what actions you perform upon receiving the mail.   I can also imagine because the mail will have a link in, that will also give it minus points :(
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kitz

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Re: Forum mail problem for those using Microsoft email addresses
« Reply #9 on: October 07, 2017, 04:52:46 PM »

I've noticed this happening more and more with outlook / hotmail in general.

I've subscribed to a few newsletters and a couple of them which I dont open very often after reading the subject line keeps getting put in to the junk mail. The emails I get from GOG keep doing this. I keep saying its not junk. But after 2 or 3 further emails i find them back in the junk section again. It's very annoying.

I bet this is catching a lot of people. But more noticable in smaller groups with email notifications.

Yes it will be something to do with the SNDS system they use.   I had already registered as a safe sender via my hosts, but that made no difference either.
I certainly am not alone - as mentioned my hosts said hundreds* and thats just them.   There are plenty of other complaints out there too.
With the number of complaints, its not a very smart system.

*That could perhaps be a high figure for those who are on shared hosting whereby many domains will send mail from the 1 IP.  So you may have many people complaining from just one IP. 
My server has its own IP so it should be pretty easy for them to see my mail volume & identify that my server is not being used to spam. 
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sevenlayermuddle

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Re: Forum mail problem for those using Microsoft email addresses
« Reply #10 on: October 07, 2017, 04:54:06 PM »

It does sound like a stupid system, I can think of many circumstances that would catch it out.

Every day I receive a  new mail at my gmail account, sent from a backup script on my own Linux box, saying “Backup completed OK”.  If I fail to receive it then I would investigate why my back up had failed.  But the body of the message is of little interest (and always very similar), so as long as I receive it, I usually just delete it and get on with my day.   Never occurred to me some twit might be deducing that I didn’t want them delivered any more. :(
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Ronski

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Re: Forum mail problem for those using Microsoft email addresses
« Reply #11 on: October 07, 2017, 06:59:20 PM »

It is very short sighted on MS's part, I get lot's of emails, I'll check the subject line and often delete them, if it's something that interests me then I'll open it. Many people probably do this, just because it's deleted without being read does not mean it's spam!

Given time and enough complaints I'm sure they'll do something about it, but we all know how slowly MS can react.
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sevenlayermuddle

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Re: Forum mail problem for those using Microsoft email addresses
« Reply #12 on: October 07, 2017, 07:14:13 PM »

From a few minutes googling, the whole SNDS implementation does seem to be a complete disaster, and everybody’s head is buried in the sand.

Imagine you are at a conference in a work capacity.   A prospect seems interested, and hands you a business card with an email that reads “hotmail.com”.

You then have a choice... do you warn the prospect that your email might not get delivered?   If you do, chances are he’ll form a certain opinion of your organisation, and run a mile.  If you don’t warn him, chances are he’ll get fed up waiting, and move on anyway.

Verging on conspiracy theory, but makes me wonder...   Is it just possible there might be a door about to open, whereby hotmail delivery will work reliably again, providing a certain subscription is paid, notionally for something like ‘validation of mail sender’?
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banger

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Re: Forum mail problem for those using Microsoft email addresses
« Reply #13 on: October 07, 2017, 09:33:20 PM »

Wondered why I wasn't getting any notifications on my outlook account, have now changed email to a different non MS account.
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d2d4j

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Re: Forum mail problem for those using Microsoft email addresses
« Reply #14 on: October 08, 2017, 11:07:31 AM »

Hi

I think part of the issue is kitz does not send enough email to be scored on reputation.

I could be wrong sorry and time is short, but please see 2 pics, so I think this maybe not an issue to the bigger ISP/ESP, but rather a means to stop spam from the smaller users

Many thanks

John
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