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Author Topic: Uber banned from london  (Read 6520 times)

Chunkers

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Re: Uber banned from london
« Reply #15 on: September 24, 2017, 05:53:20 AM »

Personally I think Uber is a great service and idea, I have used it a few times and it feels so much more customer focused and easy.  My view on the ban has gone 180 degrees since I started talking to a friend who drives a cab and applied for an Uber license and told me how it works and I started reading about the issue.

The problem for me is that Uber will take 25% of the money paid to the drivers, demand they sign exclusive contracts with them (they can't work for anyone else) and then deny they are employees or to take any responsibility for them as an employer. 

"A tribunal last year ruled that they should be treated like minicab drivers with minimum wage rights and sick pay, but Uber is appealing against that decision"
(BBC website)

The "we are just a software company" approach is a big threat to employees rights and customers alike and and an excuse by Uber for not complying or paying the cost of employment law designed to protect "normal" people i.e. employees and customers

That's why personally I think London has been brave and correct in implementing a ban.  It's worth pointing out that a significant and growing number of other cities and countries have done the same thing.

I wonder how cheap an Uber would be compared to a Black Cab if they actually had to comply with employment law like other UK companies.  There are also reports that it is running at a loss simply to gain market share ..... this article, written before the ban, is interesting

What we need is an ethical version of Uber offering the same cool app and features but with employees who are respected and that complies with the law in the country in which it operates, it will almost certainly be more expensive.....

Ultimately, of course, driverless vehicles will make this largely irrelevant in the not-too distant future :D

o/


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broadstairs

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Re: Uber banned from london
« Reply #16 on: September 24, 2017, 08:02:15 AM »

Having read that article quoted by Chunkers I am even more supportive of the TFL position. Uber are simply not playing fair (or fare  ;) ) either with the drivers or the public. Their business practices alone deserve them to be banned, it is simply not good enough to behave this way and the apparent culture of the company is despicable.

Stuart
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Chrysalis

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Re: Uber banned from london
« Reply #17 on: September 24, 2017, 08:27:51 AM »

Not all drivers will like uber, but I can only say the ones I spoke to like working for uber.

Yes uber take a cut, but the drivers do better, as they dont do trips that are unpaid and also can start a new trip close to one they ending which means more time spent driving paying customers around instead of in between fares.

If uber was so bad to drivers, then they wouldnt have anyone working for them.

Also during surge pricing they make much more money per job than from with normal taxi firms.

Also chunkers I agree about the employments rights issue, but thats an issue with law rather than uber, uber have took the approach where its drivers are self employed presumably to take advantage of a law that is weak for self employed workers.  If you close these loopholes in the law then companies like uber would be different in that respect.  However I dont think this is the only reason, the founder of uber has not created a taxi company, he has created an app as a frontend to bring drivers and customers together, he would just bloat his company if he employed drivers directly along with all the baggage that brings.

I cannot see how that has any impact on TFL at all, why would they care how a driver is employed and paid?  What has likely impacted TFL is all the lobbying thats occurred from the black cab drivers, who refuse to update their methods and pricing to deal with a competitor.  I am not saying uberis not less safe, as I dont know, but I am also not claiming it is more safe, I think when black cab drivers say that they are speculating.

Black cabs overcharge, my view wont change on that, this is proven by the fact that pre paid fixed price taxi firms are much cheaper and not going bankrupt.  These firms have been around way longer than uber.  Uber pricing is not unreasonable when you take that into consideration as with uber costs are removed by not having a operating directing the taxis.  However I speculate that uber has lost black cab drivers a lot of business, the downside with fixed price taxis is typically you need to pre book them and cannot get them easily on demand, uber changed that as I mentioned you can go on the app and get the job accepted right away, this would surprise me if it hasnt lost black cab drivers lots of work.  Which I think is the real reason we have got this situation.

Uber is as a service to be fair just a app frontend that brings drivers and their passengers together.

There is other companies that take the same approach as uber with employment and have not been banned in london.

Amazon logistics.
Deliveroo
Uber eats

Deliveroo I am aware has also been in the press tho related to employees rights.

Everyone who has called for them to be banned has not really commented on the drivers losing their livelyhood and the customers affected having to start using an inferior more expensive service again, I guess that all doesnt matter?

Also to me there is an obvious question that hasnt been answered, if uber dont comply with TFL's requirements, why was there license even issued in the first place? Remember this is a refusal to "RENEW" a license not "GRANT" it for the first time.
« Last Edit: September 24, 2017, 08:43:11 AM by Chrysalis »
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renluop

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Re: Uber banned from london
« Reply #18 on: September 24, 2017, 08:40:05 AM »

No matter, what praise is given Uber by some users, and persons who see an opportunity for political mischief, it is a fact that Uber have had problems worldwide]. London would not seem out of step, and so I can see no plot against Uber

Uber's problems mean opportunity knocks for some, and now Lyft makes its entrance. Muddy water?
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Chrysalis

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Re: Uber banned from london
« Reply #19 on: September 24, 2017, 08:49:55 AM »

renluop note many of those instances originated from lobbying from existing taxi drivers in those countries, the only real cause of concern I found there was the india incident.

If lyft launched in london it will most definitely get the same sort of opposition from the same black cab drivers.

Uber are appealing, we will see if the courts agree with whats happened or if the TFL back down before then.

Also i am still curious to see if there is fixed price cab firms in london and if they follow the same so called strict regulations that black cabs follow, no one has commented on that.

If you think no government, council or governing body has ever been influenced by lobbying then you are naive. :) Of course I have no doubt uber themselves have been involved in lobbying as well, everyone is at it.

Also how many people here who replied actually ever rely on taxis?

Also who do you consider the most important.

The black cab drivers?
The uber drivers?
The customers using these services?
Other concerns?

http://hub.unlock.org.uk/worth-applying-local-council-taxi-licence-criminal-record/

What is actually specifically dangerous about uber, I would love to hear the proven cases or is it just accepting what been told by the black cab drivers? thanks.

All of uber's uk drivers are licenced and approved by councils so have passed the above check.

Quote from uber's website.

Quote
Do you have a private hire licence?

In order to drive on the Uber app, you'll need a private hire licence from a council that Uber is licensed by. If you don't have one

https://www.uber.com/en-GB/drive/requirements/

Unless uber are blatantly lieing on their website, this is the truth about unvetted drivers.  So Uber are not skipping the law on driver vetting.
« Last Edit: September 24, 2017, 09:00:58 AM by Chrysalis »
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renluop

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Re: Uber banned from london
« Reply #20 on: September 24, 2017, 10:10:55 AM »

I am not naive be it about the Uber side or its opponents, but thanks for your insufficiently disguised insult. ::) ;D
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sevenlayermuddle

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Re: Uber banned from london
« Reply #21 on: September 24, 2017, 11:09:06 AM »

Another example of Uber’s disregard for rules, secretly tagging iPhones in violation of Apple policies...

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/technology/2017/04/24/tim-cook-threatened-kick-uber-app-store-iphone-tracking/

Not to mention their famous ‘greyball’..

https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2017/mar/03/uber-secret-program-greyball-resignation-ed-baker

Just not a company that I’d feel comfortable using, unless as a last resort.   There may be places where one has to stoop to such a last resort, but London is not one of them.



« Last Edit: September 24, 2017, 11:41:12 AM by sevenlayermuddle »
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Chrysalis

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Re: Uber banned from london
« Reply #22 on: September 24, 2017, 12:23:18 PM »

again you just googling for stuff on news sites.

Greyball not used in the UK.

In regards to apple, I doubt that would be a valid reason for banning uber by the TFL.

I addressed the claims that somehow uber drivers are not vetted, and posted information they are vetted by individual councils as they need a license to supplied by a council to work for uber.

Are you trying to say London has no need for a on demand taxi service that has GPS tracking, automated online payment and prices that arent a ripoff?

I think this decision will struggle to stand up in court because I spent an hour or so earlier looking at UK legislation and what uber are doing and it looks to me as the TFL have made a odd decision, from what I can see, if they have decided Uber are unsafe, then they need to make the same decision for every private hire firm.  This I think wont stand up in court.

Also I wonder how the TFL will answer the inevitable question as to why the license was originally approved if Uber didnt comply with safety regulation.
« Last Edit: September 24, 2017, 12:27:59 PM by Chrysalis »
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Chrysalis

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Re: Uber banned from london
« Reply #23 on: September 24, 2017, 12:32:55 PM »

I am not naive be it about the Uber side or its opponents, but thanks for your insufficiently disguised insult. ::) ;D


No problem, but you are welcome to correct me.

Was I wrong in believing you were suggesting that state regulators are never influenced by lobbying?

The problems worldwide you pointed out are almost entirely driven by rival taxi drivers been upset at the new competition, this I agree is a problem uber has encountered in many countries.

I do have an idea of black cab pricing in Leicester, since a family member recently used one.

A trip from the city centre to fosse park which is about 3 miles cost £17 in poor traffic (black cabs meter goes up in traffic jams etc.).
If I enter this on the uber app it is estimated at £5-6, potentially £12 if surge pricing.
This would suggest citylink would probably be about £5.50-£6.50 based on my experience.

Someone like citylink wouldnt need to do much to undercut uber as they already comparable pricing, if they felt they needed to, but you can see the real reason why black cab drivers are not happy, with the prices they have got used to charging.

I am not a fan of the tories but I felt boris comments when he was mayor was right.

Also whilst I am a strong believer in employees rights and job security, things like zero hour contracts and self employment are sharply on the rise in this country. Uber are not alone in this respect and it also wouldnt be a viable reason for the TFL to ban uber either, unless they could prove they are actually flouting employment laws, which from what I can tell from my limited research they not.

I accept a good debate, but the debate seems weak, it seems to be based on "well uber have been in the press a lot about bad things so it must mean they should be banned, and the TFL must be right".
« Last Edit: September 24, 2017, 12:45:14 PM by Chrysalis »
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Chrysalis

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Re: Uber banned from london
« Reply #24 on: September 24, 2017, 01:06:16 PM »

going to leave my thoughts as they are, dont want to get too heated on this, I think we all know I dont want this ban to be upheld but I welcome new information on sound footing that perhaps adds credibility to the TFL decision and what the black cab drivers are saying. So will still check for new replies. :)

Just surprised at the anti uber feeling here, but I guess public opinion is not as strong as I initially thought it was, although I am assuming most of the negativity here is from people who dont regularly use taxis and as such dont appreciate the improvement uber has brought about.  Except black sheep who has said he has used them himself. :)
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Black Sheep

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Re: Uber banned from london
« Reply #25 on: September 24, 2017, 01:32:42 PM »

My wife uses them almost daily, as she works in Manchester for the most part ..... I, from time-to-time.

Could not believe our luck when we were pointed towards this service. Ironically it was 'given' to us in a pub in Manchester's 'Northern Quarter', by a couple from London who had travelled up to watch the Stone Roses gig at the 'Etihad Stadium'.

We had gotten that carried away nattering (never met them before, btw) and drinking, that it was too late to walk the 40mins to the stadium and they suggested we share a taxi. I was getting ready to walk us all down to the nearest taxi-rank when he suggested he book one on Uber. Cannot believe the ease of the whole process and of course the price ...... far, far cheaper than a BC would have been.

Can't comment on the London southern-softie thing  ;D as never used it down there, or read anything to do with it before this. But, from first-hand experience I think it's an absolute gem of a service.
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renluop

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Re: Uber banned from london
« Reply #26 on: September 24, 2017, 03:59:38 PM »

No problem, but you are welcome to correct me.

Was I wrong in believing you were suggesting that state regulators are never influenced by lobbying?
Definitely, I do not so believe, but does the regulator work as am autocrat? I think he/she will act on advice
The problems worldwide you pointed out are almost entirely driven by rival taxi drivers been upset at the new competition, this I agree is a problem uber has encountered in many countries.

I do have an idea of black cab pricing in Leicester, since a family member recently used one.

A trip from the city centre to fosse park which is about 3 miles cost £17 in poor traffic (black cabs meter goes up in traffic jams etc.).
If I enter this on the uber app it is estimated at £5-6, potentially £12 if surge pricing.
This would suggest citylink would probably be about £5.50-£6.50 based on my experience.

Someone like citylink wouldnt need to do much to undercut uber as they already comparable pricing, if they felt they needed to, but you can see the real reason why black cab drivers are not happy, with the prices they have got used to charging.

I am not a fan of the tories but I felt boris comments when he was mayor was right.


Also whilst I am a strong believer in employees rights and job security, things like zero hour contracts and self employment are sharply on the rise in this country. Uber are not alone in this respect and it also wouldnt be a viable reason for the TFL to ban uber either, unless they could prove they are actually flouting employment laws, which from what I can tell from my limited research they not.

I accept a good debate, but the debate seems weak, it seems to be based on "well uber have been in the press a lot about bad things so it must mean they should be banned, and the TFL must be right".
Whatever we think about Uber, Taxis, politics is not really that important. What is, is that the public should be safe. if the answe turns out a yes then Uber continues.

Politically I canary a torch for neither side; the left with its business bashing, nor the right, some of whose members' love of innovation, could well disguise a desire lower standards, and wages, so higher money for themselves.
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parkdale

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Re: Uber banned from london
« Reply #27 on: September 24, 2017, 04:01:12 PM »

The only thing that i'm concerned about is TAX evasion,  >:D, they generate lots of profit but again pay very little tax.
 
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parkdale

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Re: Uber banned from london
« Reply #28 on: September 24, 2017, 04:07:33 PM »

This article in The Guardian about how driver wages have been hit, sums it all up....

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/sep/23/over-uber-london-driver-fares-rivals-work
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Dray

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Re: Uber banned from london
« Reply #29 on: September 24, 2017, 04:18:38 PM »

Quite
Quote
Uber’s model is perfect for customers, who have the convenience of being able to use an app to order a cab while still at home or sitting in a restaurant. Journeys are so cheap that if you’re travelling as a group you’ll sometimes save money by taking an Uber rather than a bus.
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