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Author Topic: Moving to a better set of Pairs  (Read 10333 times)

shadow4dog

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Re: Moving to a better set of Pairs
« Reply #15 on: September 17, 2017, 01:45:21 PM »

My brother had an issue with his line back in the days of ADSL. He could only sync at 1Mb/s Max, whereas his neighbor could get 7Mb/s. We called BT out two or three times and they swapped E side pairs before they gave up and said that was all they could do.
We decided to order a second line and this line synced at 7Mb/s! Then fibre came... we put it on the BT line and it synced but had a huge number of errors way below the bottom estimate for his line. So we then put FTTC on the second line and unsurprisingly it synced at the rate that had been quoted.
My point is that Openreach could have swapped the pair to the CAB but refused and only a new order got us the speed we have today.

Thanks
Tim
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Black Sheep

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Re: Moving to a better set of Pairs
« Reply #16 on: September 17, 2017, 01:50:59 PM »

40/10 or 80/20 wouldn't make a difference if his line appears, at the moment for whatever reason, capable of way less than 30.

I think the OP needs another engineer visit.

I'm not saying that. I'm asking the question is his neighbour on the 80Meg product, and he on the 40Meg product. The OP is obviously using his neighbour as a yard-stick for his own circuits performance.

I do agree he needs an engineering visit and should be offered one by his ISP, with that drop in speed.
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Black Sheep

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Re: Moving to a better set of Pairs
« Reply #17 on: September 17, 2017, 01:58:18 PM »

My point is that Openreach could have swapped the pair to the CAB but refused and only a new order got us the speed we have today.

Thanks
Tim

We don't 'refuse' to change pairs. We are not in the business of throwing a load of chicken-bones on a table to see 'what they tell us to do'.

We have a set of parameters to which we work to. If the tests pass within the 'cone of acceptance', then we are asked not to undertake speculative changes.

Of course, there are variables as to the 'experience' the end-user gets with the Openreach engineer. Intermittency of the fault, inexperienced engineers, local knowledge ... being the main players.
But we don't just 'refuse' to change pairs because we feel like it.
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cwaite

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Re: Moving to a better set of Pairs
« Reply #18 on: September 17, 2017, 02:33:57 PM »

I wouldn't know for absolute certain, as my job doesn't allow me to check all pairs within a binder (cable), and cross-reference.

Using my own premises as my only reference, having been responsible for making my neighbours aware of, and subsequently purchasing FTTC products, I can say we're all pretty much the same in terms of speed. We are a group of 5 houses in a cul-de-sac approx. 600mtrs from the Cab. All new 0.5 Cu wires.

If you are in the same cable from Cab to DP (Pole), then I would say the difference you are seeing is not normal. But we would need to be sure you are in the same cable, and also is your neighbour on the 80Meg product and you're on the 40Meg product ??

We are off the same pole (there are 8 drop cables from the pole we are on going to different properties) so I would guess that there is only 1 cable going to the pole.

The way I think our cables run is that it goes from the Cab (approx. 650m away) to an Underground Manhole at the entrance to our estate Which has 3 manhole covers (approx. 200m away) then to the Pole which is across the street then to the properties.

The manhole looks like the attached photo but has 3 covers, I guess this seems to be some kind of junction as its at the entrance to our estate and this is where most of the engineers head to when there is a problem.

Its actually the other way round I am on a 80/20 product and my neighbour is on a 40/2 product! However, I think PlusNet at one time said they would move me to a 40/10 product as it could result in me getting a better speed, but this didn't seem to make any difference.

My biggest complaint is that I was told and originally had a speed that would meet my Internet Needs, I now have an inferior speed which means that I can no longer watch 4k shows on Netflix (I bought two 4k TV's to enable me to watch 4K Netflix, these can now not be used to their full potential), I also have a NAS drive whereby I can access my files remotely, my upload speeds have reduced to half of what they originally were and it takes ages to download large files remotely, I also have IPTV and can no longer watch in HD on more than 1 TV at a time. Along with CCTV Cameras, VOIP and Nest Heating and Internet connected plugs, I have invested quite heavily in making my home internet connected to now find that I am unable to use these services as freely as I once could.
« Last Edit: September 17, 2017, 02:42:14 PM by cwaite »
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cwaite

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Re: Moving to a better set of Pairs
« Reply #19 on: September 17, 2017, 02:49:45 PM »

On a side note, we had a powercut around 10am this morning for around 2 or 3 seconds, thankfully I have a UPS but the graph from HG612 stats (see attachement) shows that when the power went off my attainable rate went up to around 32mbps, I am guessing not many other people will have a UPS so even eradicating the crosstalk I am not getting near to my neighbours 38.1mbps.
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Black Sheep

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Re: Moving to a better set of Pairs
« Reply #20 on: September 17, 2017, 02:54:40 PM »

For info purposes only, the 3-lid manhole is a JF10 (Jointbox Footway No.10). The more lids, generally indicates the busier the box, ie: more cables and cable joints.

As mooted previously on this thread, you definitely need an engineering visit.  :)
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cwaite

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Re: Moving to a better set of Pairs
« Reply #21 on: September 17, 2017, 04:25:41 PM »

Yes Plusnet have asked me for some dates for an OR visit, just waiting for them to confirm the dates.

I am trying to gather some info and ideas for what could be done to try and get me a similar speed to my neighbour, unfortunately I have been fobbed off by many Openreach engineers in the past.

I assume that there would be several sets of pairs coming from the Cab to the JF10 box, then the cables go off in different directions to several poles, on of which goes to the pole I am connected too! Am I correct in thinking this?
« Last Edit: September 17, 2017, 04:32:05 PM by cwaite »
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burakkucat

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Re: Moving to a better set of Pairs
« Reply #22 on: September 17, 2017, 08:55:22 PM »

I assume that there would be several sets of pairs coming from the Cab to the JF10 box, then the cables go off in different directions to several poles, on of which goes to the pole I am connected too! Am I correct in thinking this?

Think bigger and "scale up". Typically there are a number of multi-pair cables from the cabinet to various joint boxes. Eventually there will be one (sometimes more) cable(s) that will link a joint box to a pole. One (or more) cable(s) then ascend the pole to one (or more) DP(s) at the top of the pole.

From your description of just eight aerial drops from the pole-head DP, I suspect that if you go and study the pole in question you will see just one tail cable, from the DP, down the pole & then underground.
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WWWombat

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Re: Moving to a better set of Pairs
« Reply #23 on: September 17, 2017, 09:46:05 PM »

Think bigger and "scale up". Typically there are a number of multi-pair cables from the cabinet to various joint boxes.

Here, for example, is a diagram of one route out of a cabinet. The ducts can carry multiple cables; those on the D-side out of the cab will vary from having 100 pairs down to 10 pairs. The larger cables are more likely nearer the cab, and the lesser ones further away.
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cwaite

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Re: Moving to a better set of Pairs
« Reply #24 on: September 17, 2017, 11:25:50 PM »

Thanks for all this information it's all really helpful, would you think based on the difference in speed between myself and my neighbour that there is more than one multi pair cable going to the bottom of the pole that we are connected too? Also would you agree that it's likely that I am connected to one multi pair cable and my neighbour is connected to another?

Yes @burakkucat There is just one tale cable going down the pole.
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burakkucat

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Re: Moving to a better set of Pairs
« Reply #25 on: September 18, 2017, 01:00:36 AM »

Yes @burakkucat There is just one tale cable going down the pole.

Thank you. That is useful to know . . . for you have provided the answer to your two immediate preceding questions.  ;)

Quote
Thanks for all this information it's all really helpful, would you think based on the difference in speed between myself and my neighbour that there is more than one multi pair cable going to the bottom of the pole that we are connected too? Also would you agree that it's likely that I am connected to one multi pair cable and my neighbour is connected to another?

The two answers to the two questions are "no" and "no".

You have confirmed that there is just one tail cable from the pole top DP. In the relevant joint box you would see that tail cable is connected to one multi-pair D-side cable. How could the joint be closed, water-tight, if, say, half the number of pairs from the DP went to one D-side cable and the other half went to a second D-side cable? The sheath of each cable is taken into the joint closure and, depending upon which type of joint closure has been deployed, there is a water-tight seal made between the cable sheaths and the joint closure. (Yes, there are a few ways that it could be done but it would not be a normal, everyday, occurrence.)

Two typical examples of joint boxes are attached, below. The first example is by the cabinet. The thicker cables are E-side cables (between the cabinet and serving exchange), the thinner cables are D-side cables (between the cabinet and various DPs). Notice the murky water in which everything resides. The second example is near the foot of a pole. That shows a typical joint closure, the obligatory murky water and some resident slugs. I can count four cables entering that joint closure . . . each one through a water-tight seal.
« Last Edit: September 18, 2017, 01:03:21 AM by burakkucat »
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Black Sheep

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Re: Moving to a better set of Pairs
« Reply #26 on: September 18, 2017, 07:40:06 AM »

You have confirmed that there is just one tail cable from the pole top DP. In the relevant joint box you would see that tail cable is connected to one multi-pair D-side cable. How could the joint be closed, water-tight, if, say, half the number of pairs from the DP went to one D-side cable and the other half went to a second D-side cable? DPs). .

Just to elaborate slightly if I may ??

Although not the norm ... we do have several instances where a single feed DP will be fed via two separate D-side cables from the Cabinet.

For example, the DP could be fed via a 20pr cable but is only 'worth' 15prs .... by that I mean the planners have only provided 15 D-side pairs to that DP assuming that would be sufficient for the feeding properties.
Mr Smith at No.7 now decides he wants to run a business from his house and requires further circuits ... ergo, further pairs. But, the original D-side cable is 'full' ... ie: no capacity left from which to provide the extra pairs.

If do-able, we will put a 'strap' in from another joint in the same underground box as the EU's DP joint, that will be fed from a totally different D-side cable ... which will be able to provide the required capacity. 

Purely for info purposes, as Mr Cat is a purist in all things telecoms and I'm sure this will add to his overwhelming knowledge.  :)
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burakkucat

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Re: Moving to a better set of Pairs
« Reply #27 on: September 18, 2017, 04:31:42 PM »

Just to elaborate slightly if I may ??

Please do.  :)

Quote
Although not the norm ... we do have several instances where a single feed DP will be fed via two separate D-side cables from the Cabinet.

That is exactly the sort of scenario to which I was alluding with my "(Yes, there are a few ways that it could be done but it would not be a normal, everyday, occurrence.)" It was my failure to think of the word "strap", to describe the linking cable (at gone 0100 hours this morning) which resulted the above, brief, parenthesised sentence.
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cwaite

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Re: Moving to a better set of Pairs
« Reply #28 on: September 18, 2017, 09:59:05 PM »

Sorry but I am not 100 percent sure that I fully understand what's been said, So in lay mans terms am I right in thinking there is 1 multi pair cable going to a joint box at the bottom of the pole which all of us that are attached to that pole are connected to, this is connected to a joint in the JF10 underground box at the start of the estate, and is it likely that from the JF10 box back to the cab myself and my neighbour probably connected to different multipair cables going back to the cab.
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j0hn

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Re: Moving to a better set of Pairs
« Reply #29 on: September 18, 2017, 10:47:24 PM »

With only 8 feeds coming from your pole it's likely you're using the same multi pair cable, though there's no way to know for sure.

You can't use your neighbour as a guide. They may be using a better modem, no internal wiring problems, etc, etc. There's always going to be lines that perform better than others. Feeding you brand new copper right to the cab might not get you what your neighbour gets.That's just 1 neighbour, other neighbours might get less.

I get 48Mb at the moment. My neighbour is getting 33Mb. Both our line estimates are high of 38Mb on a clean line. My initial guess is most of my street gets mid 30's. I've just got lucky on the crosstalk lottery, along with me optimising things in the property. Between me upgrading my modem, better/shorter patch cable, an unfiltered NTE5 faceplate, I've gained roughly 8-10Mb over the standard equipment I started with.

If you weren't banded you would get 27Mb.
Your neighbour had 34Mb.
That's a perfectly normal difference between 2 similar lines.

Your neighbour had increased by 4Mb recently. This is probably DLM using the new lower snrm targets.
If your line was stable then it might to do the same with your line.
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