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Author Topic: Sky Fibre 55Mb product - stealth release?  (Read 673 times)

AngelRex

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Sky Fibre 55Mb product - stealth release?
« on: August 30, 2017, 01:21:01 PM »

I hope it's OK to cross ref. stories from other sites and couldn't see this listed so far.

SKY seem to be offering the 55/10 BT product as, well kind of a stealth product - much like the original MAX was.

Long story short, existing customers can go to the 55Mb product where they cant get Pro.

Taken from TBB - https://www.thinkbroadband.com/news/7800-sky-fibre-max-gets-new-stronger-speed-guarantee

Seems interesting and while I can't make use of it, I'm sure others can. Pricing shows the 55mb product at 2.50 cheaper than the Pro product too.

[Moderator edited to insert the correct working link.]
« Last Edit: August 30, 2017, 06:54:18 PM by burakkucat »
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jelv

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Re: Sky Fibre 55Mb product - stealth release?
« Reply #1 on: August 30, 2017, 01:47:49 PM »

Your link doesn't work.
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skyeci

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Re: Sky Fibre 55Mb product - stealth release?
« Reply #2 on: August 30, 2017, 02:03:36 PM »

mentioned here too

http://www.ispreview.co.uk/index.php/2017/08/sky-broadband-quietly-add-52mbps-fttc-sky-fibre-unlimited-plus-package.html

well done sky, hopefully this will encourage other ISP's to follow suit apart fom BT etc..
« Last Edit: August 30, 2017, 02:07:28 PM by skyeci »
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Ignitionnet

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Re: Sky Fibre 55Mb product - stealth release?
« Reply #3 on: August 30, 2017, 11:37:06 PM »

No idea why anyone's praising this. It's their way of improving the average speed on the Pro / 80Mb package, rejecting those customers' orders and forcing them to the lower service, nothing to do with customer service at all :)

This is actually not unique. More and more are doing it as the writing is on the wall for the advertising rules to change from top 10% to median. The only question mark is over whether it will be at peak time or 24 hours. Virgin Media are assuming peak time and augmenting their network capacity accordingly. xDSL / G.fast customers of Openreach can't augment so will have to push customers to lower tiers to try and preserve the medians.

I believe the term is 'unexpected consequences'.
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AngelRex

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Re: Sky Fibre 55Mb product - stealth release?
« Reply #4 on: August 31, 2017, 01:20:17 PM »

No idea why anyone's praising this. It's their way of improving the average speed on the Pro / 80Mb package, rejecting those customers' orders and forcing them to the lower service, nothing to do with customer service at all :)

This is actually not unique. More and more are doing it as the writing is on the wall for the advertising rules to change from top 10% to median. The only question mark is over whether it will be at peak time or 24 hours. Virgin Media are assuming peak time and augmenting their network capacity accordingly. xDSL / G.fast customers of Openreach can't augment so will have to push customers to lower tiers to try and preserve the medians.

I believe the term is 'unexpected consequences'.

I haven't seen anyone praise this yet.......It's sneaky that they can force people onto a lower pack, where some may want a faster upload, they they want better 'average' speeds.  It's news, was interesting and I've personally not seen anyone other than BT offer 55/10.
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Chrysalis

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Re: Sky Fibre 55Mb product - stealth release?
« Reply #5 on: August 31, 2017, 01:31:26 PM »

ignition where is VMs speed guarantee? :)

on a serious note, you have hinted a few times ASA changes are coming at some point.

I dont like that the ASA seem to be waiting for isp's to adjust so they can comply from day one, instead of making changes now, applying some large fines, and doing some hardcore regulating.  All seems a bit too cosy in the UK in terms of regulation.

The fact that VM seem to know about incoming regulation before joe public, and that they been given time to add network capacity (that should have been there years ago) so they can comply just seems so wrong.

Whilst all sky are having to do is add median speed to product descriptions because they already get good peak time performance. Adding a 55mbit fallback product in situations where the targeted speed is not met "and" the customer complains about it (I dont think they auto rejecting orders to meet it) is a lot less sly than doing a mass backlog of network upgrades because finally you going to be called out on decades of under investment.

I bet there will still be some dodgy VM areas left over as well, as they only need to upgrade "enough" areas to make the "national" median speed look respectable.
« Last Edit: August 31, 2017, 01:37:50 PM by Chrysalis »
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kitz

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Re: Sky Fibre 55Mb product - stealth release?
« Reply #6 on: August 31, 2017, 10:16:23 PM »

The ASA -v- the ISPs situation is a joke.

They'll get clobbered for something, then one of the ISPs will find some way round it which in turn only complicates things further for the EU.

'Fibre' , "Up to speeds" & "Wireless routers" are areas that spring to mind from the past. 

Pricing is also another area where things are now more complicated.  Yes they may now include phone and broadband in one price, but just about all the big ISPs are headlining prices that only last 12-18 months and its nigh on impossible to find out how much the price will increase by after that period.   

In a years time I bet lots of people will be caught out when their monthly subscriptions go up.  But its OK by ASA as long as the price doesnt go up within the contract period  >:(
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Chrysalis

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Re: Sky Fibre 55Mb product - stealth release?
« Reply #7 on: September 01, 2017, 12:36:48 AM »

Been arguing with a sky bod on another forum, they been blaming all sorts on openreach, then I pointed out openreach have had to fight year on year reductions in line rental thanks to sky and co's lobbying to ofcom so its no wonder the likes of fault thresholds and SFI visits are going down the pan because openreach have no motivation to provide an excellent service with downward revenue spirals, and at same time the CPs are milking line rental like crazy, most consumers no idea whats going on. 

Regulation is a real soft touch here in the UK at the retail level, I think most here on kitz know this, but what can we do about it. :(

Also the loop holes you mention kitz they occur so frequently I wouldnt be surprised if they deliberately left in place so the regulator and CP can stay on good terms with each other.

Clobbering usually means been told not to run an advert again? or a fine for a petty amount.
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Ignitionnet

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Re: Sky Fibre 55Mb product - stealth release?
« Reply #8 on: September 01, 2017, 01:36:17 PM »

ignition where is VMs speed guarantee? :)

on a serious note, you have hinted a few times ASA changes are coming at some point.

I dont like that the ASA seem to be waiting for isp's to adjust so they can comply from day one, instead of making changes now, applying some large fines, and doing some hardcore regulating.  All seems a bit too cosy in the UK in terms of regulation.

The only ones that would benefit from the hardcore regulation you describe are lawyers. You can't change regulations with zero notice and issue fines for non-compliance.

The ASA are not a government body and work within European law, not according to arbitrary guidelines.

UK telecomms regulations are not especially lax relative to other countries. Much of it is operated on from an EU-wide framework and Ofcom do not give anywhere near as much latitude as some of their peers.
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Ignitionnet

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Re: Sky Fibre 55Mb product - stealth release?
« Reply #9 on: September 01, 2017, 01:41:17 PM »

Regulation is a real soft touch here in the UK at the retail level, I think most here on kitz know this, but what can we do about it. :(

I'm not an expert on these things but I guess if 'most' on here know this I'm sure there'll be no trouble proving that regulation in the UK is a soft touch. This has to be a relative measure so I presume there are plenty of examples elsewhere showing the UK's regulation to be exceptionally lax, right? :)
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Chrysalis

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Re: Sky Fibre 55Mb product - stealth release?
« Reply #10 on: September 02, 2017, 08:29:40 AM »

yeah im comparing to america, not really looked at the rest of EU ill accept your word on that, but whats the point of regulation if its only molded to fit what those been regulated want?


do you think telling companies to not use an ad again 6 months too late with no fine works well then?


its like telling a rapist as long as you dont do it again the first time is ok


i might be asking for over extremity but what we have now isnt harsh enough as we seeing with isps abusing repeatedly

your comment regarding lawyers hits it as generally if a company never feels the need to legally challenge then you know the regulator isnt pushing hard enough, ofcom have stayed broken since they lost to sky in the courts, scared shaken.


--edit--

I acknowledge I was over heady handed in my initial comment but my opinion that what we have now is too soft has not changed.

My feeling is advertising breaches should be punished by a fine instead of a warning.  Maybe a warning if its a first offence, but for serial offenders like VM, clearly a heavier hand is needed.  the idea is that regulation removes the "business case" for flouting rules, if a business determines its profitable to flout the rules then that is what they will do. Only a fine can make that a loss making practice.  An alternative would be to provide a ban on advertising on an offence so e.g. 3 month ban of advertising, that would also likely achieve the result of making it a poor "business case" to flout the rules.

The ASA hands are tied directly as they actually dont have power to enforce their guidelines, instead ofcom are there to enforce breaches, I dont know what behind the doors arrangement ofcom and the ASA have, but if ofcom has told the ASA they dont want to intervene then this would encourage the ASA in their current warnings policy.

A regulator should be prepared for legal battles, been on constant legal battles yes is not ideal, but I think if a regulator is going for large periods of time such as several years without ever been challenged that to me is a sign that the companies been regulated are too comfortable with the arrangement.

I will also acknowledge legislation cannot be abruptly changed with zero warning (although citizens often have to put up with this from government, sometimes even with backdated legislation), on the flipside it doesnt feel right that the regulators often wait for the companies been regulated to first be happy with the changes, notice how the rules on unlimited usage didnt change until BT retail decided to drop traffic management, that should not have been the trigger for the ASA to start taking an interest.

Part of ofcom's remit is to ensure the companies it regulates are not financially deprived from its actions, that to me is just bizarre, it quite possibly explains why when ofcom do take action against something, they nearly always leave open an alternative dodgy way of companies recovering any lost revenue as a result of that action.

To put this into context, imagine a world where no regulator or law enforcement was not allowed to financially deprive an offender and they all operated in a manner where everyone just got a warning.  How good would the world be in terms of law abiding citizens?  People speeding couldnt be fined due to been financially deprived, no parking tickets as it financially deprives people so yellow lines would be ignored, rape someone, commit a burglary, doesnt matter as long as you say you wont do it again. The list goes on.

I dont have all the answers but I do strongly feel the current system for the communications sector is inadequate.  The focus from ofcom is still centered on regulating openreach which is just plain wrong, its now outdated/obsolete, sky and talktalk are both major players who shouldnt need constant favourable treatment, likewise with virgin media who somehow still escape the restrictions that BT are held under, even tho they are an infrastructure provider.  The industry has much more access to ofcom decision makers than the public and even MP's that is just plain wrong as well.

Going back to the original sky 55mbit thing which you called sly.  The reason I said its nothing compared to VM, is quite simple.  For over a decade VM(aka NTL) have as a standard business policy under invested in local network capacity in areas with high takeup of their services, they have loved to blame it on things like planning permission, unpredictable network usage amongst other things.  Yet what we are seeing now is the marketing team have decided these upgrades "need to happen" as otherwise their marketing machine grinds to a halt, all of a sudden because its deemed necessary for marketing, this work is been carried out and these so called obstacles have vanished, dont you find that all a bit "convenient"?

So in short self regulation has clearly failed, but now due to public pressure and political pressure the ASA are considering change and this has resulted in an incumbent finally investing money on quality of service.  No doubt once these upgrades are done VM will be pushing for the change as they will then be able to comply and they will know it will hurt xDSL type services.  They dont care one bit about their customers QoS, just helping their own marketing and profits.
« Last Edit: September 02, 2017, 11:55:04 AM by Chrysalis »
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Ignitionnet

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Re: Sky Fibre 55Mb product - stealth release?
« Reply #11 on: September 05, 2017, 12:34:26 AM »

Regulation in the US is horrendous. Much of the country has only ordinary ADSL or the local cable company as options. No VDSL, no FTTP.

In the US local cities wanting to build their own networks find themselves sued by the cable company and laws being put in place preventing them.

The New York Time Warner Cable stuff was exceptional as the circumstances were exceptional. The US is not somewhere we should use as a model.

VM's augmentation of networks is due to an upcoming policy change. Until these upgrades are complete they can't advertise the speeds they do as median at peak. That situation arose from an upgrade program falling behind schedule.

The upgrades fell way behind schedule and were complex. Their timing was also nothing to do with Watchdog or the marketing team, the plans had been in place for months, before anything about the ASA changing the rules. VM had a lot of upgrade to catch up on.

Periodically VM hit an upgrade wall. This time around in some areas they hit a few. The most recent upgrade was the most extensive set of upgrades since DTV and it's still not done. Another architecture shift is in process as soon as this one is complete.

It's all a tad more complex than ordering a bunch of 10G EADs to connect to the 10G ports on your exchange based 3750 metro switches.
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