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Author Topic: Any value ... ??  (Read 12114 times)

kitz

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Re: Any value ... ??
« Reply #30 on: August 10, 2017, 06:50:20 PM »

Is this saying that BT are trying G.Inp on the HH5A?

Very interesting.. it looks like could possibly be.   :-\  I wonder if that is part of the new firmware that was rolled out for the  HH5A. :hmm:   
I popped over to the BT forums last night to have a look, and there certainly does seem to be something going on with the HH5A that is causing problems since the update for several users.

Note how it is now applying Retransmission for the upstream on BlackSheeps line.

Upstream

Error Protection Off    (6)
Retransmission Low   (3)
Retransmission High   (2)


I can't recall how it showed previously -  I'd have to go searching.  But iirc if the modem wasn't fully g.inp compatible, then it applied interleaving on the upstream, which is what caused a large decrease in sync speed both up and down.   From BS's comments he didn't seem to have this symptom as his downstream was 69Mbps before he reset DLM, so no loss of downstream speed like what can happen if Re-TX is applied upstream on a modem that can't do it.
« Last Edit: August 10, 2017, 07:01:13 PM by kitz »
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Dray

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Re: Any value ... ??
« Reply #31 on: August 10, 2017, 06:56:22 PM »

Aren't those in reverse chronological order?
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kitz

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Re: Any value ... ??
« Reply #32 on: August 10, 2017, 07:07:35 PM »

For the upstream:-
 
03/08/2017 - Line was Error Protection off [6]
07/08/2017 - Then went to re-tx low [3]
08/08/2017 - Then to re-tx high  [2]
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atkinsong

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Re: Any value ... ??
« Reply #33 on: August 10, 2017, 07:09:15 PM »

This is the official statement regarding the HH5A firmware update

Over the next few weeks, BT will be delivering an upgrade to the HH5A hub firmware which will improve the performance of the Hub in a number of areas:
 
Wi-Fi  experience
BT TV experience
VPN experience
Using multiple gaming consoles
Jongo Speaker connection
Improved stability during Chromecast audio firmware upgrade
Further stability enhancements
Hub manager GUI

"Further stability enhancements"???
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Chrysalis

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Re: Any value ... ??
« Reply #34 on: August 10, 2017, 07:09:32 PM »

harsh? maybe but I think if the line is unstable enough to interrupt some iptv BS was watching then something was too aggressive. :)

bangor I think has had a loop behaviour as well 3db to 4db then back to 3db.  If the line wasnt stable previously at 3db why is it trying it again?
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Dray

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Re: Any value ... ??
« Reply #35 on: August 10, 2017, 07:20:26 PM »

Oh, right. Then off (1) which is the current profile, as a result of the recalc presumably.

So that will just keep happening?
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banger

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Re: Any value ... ??
« Reply #36 on: August 10, 2017, 09:55:08 PM »

My line tried 3db for about a day then went back to 4db but my TP-Link was giving lots of DS ES so DLM took action. The DS ES remained on 4db so after a few days went back to 5db.

I have been on 5db for a couple of months now but DLM has decided to try again. This time I am using the ZyXEL VMG1312-B10A which is showing zero DS ES on 3db so I am hoping my sync of 78 will stick around for some time.
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kitz

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Re: Any value ... ??
« Reply #37 on: August 11, 2017, 12:07:26 AM »

Oh, right. Then off (1) which is the current profile, as a result of the recalc presumably.

I deliberately didn't include [1] because that was a result of a DLM reset, rather than DLM action.

Quote
So that will just keep happening?

From the pre ASSIA info I had, it should reverse the steps in the same way they were applied.   It looks like DLM was doing this on BS's line. 
I don't know what changes have been applied since the ASSIA case, but I suspect those changes may be related to capping which Openreach uses in favour of target SNRM for NGA DLM.
 
On the Huawei cabs & 3db,  they appear in part to have reverted back to the more familiar Target SNRM that is used on the adsl2+ 21CN (& 20CN) system only the steps are 1dB per step rather than 3dB per step.  From scanning through the court case notes it would appear that most of the complaints that ASSIA had involved the NGA DLM.  It was the NGA (FTTC) DLM that BT had to change.

Because I dont have any info on what they changed since ASSIA, I have been trying to observe what happens & when. 

Based on my observations, for INP and G.INP they appear to be using the familiar 20CN/12CN penalty system ie
  First offence takes one full day of ILQ green to clear
  2nd offence takes 10 full days of ILQ green to clear
  3rd offence takes 14 full days of ILQ green to clear
  etc


As regards to capping, I haven't got a clue - that now seems 'stuck' until god knows when  :shrug2:

The other thing I haven't been able to fathom out fully on the Huawei cabs,  is once a line has been reset, how long it takes for G.INP to be reapplied.  NS has also been trying to find a pattern.   This is why I am particularly interested in BS's line because we know when he did the DLM reset, so I would be really interested in knowing when it re-applies G.INP to his line.

Back to your question and the TLDR; answer.

No I don't believe it would.  It was currently doing the only 1 day thing.   


I believe it would have kicked in to the familiar penalty offence system.  Next time it happened it would have taken a longer period of stability before it tried to lower it again after the next offence. 
However, because BS has done a full reset..  the next time it happens (and it probably will) it will be back to the 1st offence and it will go back down to 3dB fairly quickly once it kicks back into the cycle thing.

Actually the penalty system usually works quite well - does do on 20CN/21CN.   
Perhaps BS should have left it a bit longer to sort itself out...  but actually I'm glad he didn't, because it is giving me an opportunity to see what is actually happening for sure.    It was only after I had a full DLM reset on my own line that I could clearly see that they were using the penalty system for INP

I suspect something else is happening with BS's line.   It's the upstream I'm watching. 
I've yet to decide whether he does have something causes issues on the upstream - why else would DLM be changing those params which are supposed to be independent of the downstream Target SNRM params?

atm I'm undecided if perhaps he has an emerging HR fault...
or probably more likely in view of the fact of the other complaints on the BT forums by other HH5A users after the f/w update, that they may have attempted to make the HH5A fully G.INP compatible.   TP-link did it with the TD-W9980 which has the same chip.  ejs has always maintained it should be possible on the ECI modems and apparently the hacked ECI's with custom f/w supposedly does.  So it is a possibility that they may have... but not got something quite right and it is causing some weird instability issues.  From what I saw on the BT forums some of the modems were doing a full power cycle - not just a resync.

     



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Black Sheep

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Re: Any value ... ??
« Reply #38 on: August 11, 2017, 10:07:21 AM »

Interesting reading, guys. You have my attention.  :)

Todays sit-rep is exactly as it was in the 'cut & paste' I posted up yesterday, having just looked this very minute. We're almost at the magic 3-day limit since I performed a re-calc, so maybe things will start to happen soon ??  :)
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Dray

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Re: Any value ... ??
« Reply #39 on: August 11, 2017, 11:03:46 AM »

Thanks for that Kitz, very interesting :)

It will be really good if BT manage to get G.Inp working on the HH5A as it's a really good router otherwise. I'm sure BT have a large inventory which could lower the price. I know I do ;)

It may also mean we can all get G.Inp back on the upstream where it belongs.

I also hope it's possible to get that profile listing from the ISP and even an online query system to automatically get one on demand would be brilliant.
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kitz

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Re: Any value ... ??
« Reply #40 on: August 11, 2017, 12:40:39 PM »

Interesting reading, guys. You have my attention.  :)

Todays sit-rep is exactly as it was in the 'cut & paste' I posted up yesterday, having just looked this very minute. We're almost at the magic 3-day limit since I performed a re-calc, so maybe things will start to happen soon ??  :)

I think NS says that he has observed 14 days on another line.  I'm sure he will correct me if I'm wrong. :)
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kitz

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Re: Any value ... ??
« Reply #41 on: August 11, 2017, 01:12:14 PM »

It will be really good if BT manage to get G.Inp working on the HH5A as it's a really good router otherwise.

Yes it would.   After seeing that is was possible with the TD-W9980, I see no reason why they couldn't have done so sooner. 

As regards to the HH5A, I personally would prefer a HH5B due to the modem chipset.  Although I don't have a HH5A, I do have a TD-W9980 with the same chipset and there is no doubt that the BCMs out perform the VRX-268 on my line by anything up to 8Mbps depending upon which BCM.

I've seen a few people falsely accuse the HH5A of not being able to do downstream G.INP purely because they get say 6Mbps more when using a HG612.

Quote
I also hope it's possible to get that profile listing from the ISP and even an online query system to automatically get one on demand would be brilliant.

Most SP's seem to stick with what info is pulled back from the likes of a GEA test.

However, Openreach make quite a lot of info available to the ISP - if they want to make use of it.   The data is made available in xml but its down to the ISP to  code some sort of GUI that makes it into a human readable format.

I've seen a beta version one ISP was making and there is quite a lot of information that can be collated including info about the RAS such as its lat/long location, IP, DNS, make of RAS and even how much bandwidth is on the backhaul not just the SVLAN status.  Logs for such things as BRAS profiles and amount of IP data bandwidth for various durations can also be obtained.   There's even access to to OR infrastructure mapping showing where the line runs right up to the DP and the DP no.   

So the info is available.. its just if the ISP wants to get someone to sit and code some sort of interface that will run on their own systems.   I don't know of any ISP that has made full use of all the info.
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Chrysalis

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Re: Any value ... ??
« Reply #42 on: August 11, 2017, 04:08:28 PM »

makes you wonder how good things could be if openreach could sell direct to consumers.

Imagine a portal where could see profile history, current profile and a reasons tab why the profile is active.
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kitz

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Re: Any value ... ??
« Reply #43 on: August 11, 2017, 10:16:05 PM »

Don't think it will ever be available to the public as a lot of it could be considered personal data.  For eg with the mapping showing the route of the cable, you could look up home address from their phone no.

I suppose an ISP could make a portal though linked to the EU's account.  But how many EU's would actually be interested in this data never-mind understand what it means. Whilst the likes of you and me would find this info interesting, the vast majority probably just dont care.
Then there is the time involved for someone to code the GUI and make it available, I can only think of one ISP that is geeky enough to make use of it.

>> a reasons tab why the profile is active.

afaik that info is not available in such depth.  I suppose you could try getting an indication from the ILQ status which may or may not be available.  So for example if it showed scarlet then you know the line changes were a result of errors on the upstream.

Something like this from the Plusnet DLM page would be good



Unfortunately its not clear if that info is actually available to the ISP, or if that is taken from an example given by BTw.  I cant recall seeing anything about ILQ on the beta thingy.   :/
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Chrysalis

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Re: Any value ... ??
« Reply #44 on: August 12, 2017, 01:09:59 AM »

An ISP will never do it, they love been the middle man and witholding information so its all too easy to blame third party suppliers that the end user has no access to.
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