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Author Topic: How long should I wait for DLM to remove interleaving?  (Read 3019 times)

skyeci

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Re: How long should I wait for DLM to remove interleaving?
« Reply #30 on: August 07, 2017, 11:01:27 AM »

Why not email openreach ceo directly. Explain the situation and they might help you out. When I had my complaint some time ago I had many a dlm reset done automatically from the noc without the need for an engineer whilst it was being investigated. Its got to be worth a go.

They were testing different profiles but had to reset each time whilst trying to figure out what was going on.
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broadstairs

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Re: How long should I wait for DLM to remove interleaving?
« Reply #31 on: September 06, 2017, 09:31:33 PM »

Well at around 3 hours ago my line did a re-sync and lo and behold I have had the cap removed and I'm back on fastpath, sync'd now at 65336kbps @ 6.3db.

Now I have a sneaky idea why this happened. On Tuesday morning I emailed the BT OR CEO and got a reply from one of his minions who asked for some details which I sent this morning. At around 18:00 this evening the cap and interleaving all got removed. I think I must have made quite a good case over the cap especially as it had been over 12 months since it was applied initially.

Stuart
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banger

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Re: How long should I wait for DLM to remove interleaving?
« Reply #32 on: September 06, 2017, 09:45:29 PM »

Good to know all you need now is G.INP on ECI to get into the 70s.
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skyeci

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Re: How long should I wait for DLM to remove interleaving?
« Reply #33 on: September 06, 2017, 10:34:04 PM »

Well at around 3 hours ago my line did a re-sync and lo and behold I have had the cap removed and I'm back on fastpath, sync'd now at 65336kbps @ 6.3db.

Now I have a sneaky idea why this happened. On Tuesday morning I emailed the BT OR CEO and got a reply from one of his minions who asked for some details which I sent this morning. At around 18:00 this evening the cap and interleaving all got removed. I think I must have made quite a good case over the cap especially as it had been over 12 months since it was applied initially.

Stuart

Glad my suggestion helped you out perhaps - nice!!  :congrats:
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broadstairs

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Re: How long should I wait for DLM to remove interleaving?
« Reply #34 on: September 07, 2017, 08:29:23 AM »

I think I should point out that just complaining to the BT CEO wont necessarily work. It has been over 12 months with the cap and nearly 4 months of interleaving and I put together a detailed explanation of both the original issues which got the cap initially plus why I got interleaved (thunderstorms) and how I had exhausted all the avenues via TalkTalk and still got nowhere, so I asked politely if there was anything that BT could do to resolve this and yes it seems to have worked a treat. I just dont want anyone to get the idea that you can simply bypass an ISP and go over their head to BT without good cause and a well thought out case.

I've not heard back from the guy in the CEO's office but I think a note of thanks will be in order.

Stuart
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broadstairs

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Re: How long should I wait for DLM to remove interleaving?
« Reply #35 on: September 07, 2017, 10:34:39 AM »

Spoke too soon. At 10am today DLM intervened to put me back on interleaving despite only 192 ES in past 24 hours and sync dropped to 57465kbps. Have no idea if the cap got replaced. Needless to say I have emailed my BT contact about this. Very disappointing as I had expected DLM to leave me alone at least for a few days to determine how it was going.  >:(

Stuart
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kitz

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Re: How long should I wait for DLM to remove interleaving?
« Reply #36 on: September 07, 2017, 12:08:53 PM »

But if you did have a DLM reset, then the line then going into interleaving the next day is no surprise?

Very often the reset puts the line into open profile, then within the next 48 hrs interleaving will be applied by default and you then have to wait for that to be removed.  Even when BS reset his own line it went to Interleave for a while.

-----


As regards to the Wide Area Event detection and this

Quote
The ONLY reason my line has not had a continuous period of very low ES has been thunderstorms which DLM is refusing to acknowledge is the issue and should ignore it. DLM is not fit for purpose in this area. There are plenty of very accurate ways to detect these storms and determine the areas they cover and that is the only way DLM should handle them not by some nefarious algorithm which obviously does not work correctly.

I still think there may have been something else going on.   TBF saying the Wide Area Event system is rubbish is a tad harsh.   
Most DLM systems don't even have Wide Area Event detection, its something unique that BT came up with that is actually advantageous to the EU.   
Other DLM systems will just penalise you straight off and take no absolutely no account of what's been happening locally.   It is also supposed to be local - ie those on the same exchange also experiencing a high amount of errors and or resyncs.

Yes it does work - we had massive thunderstorms here on the 19th Jul.  On the same day my Err Secs reached 10.9k which is far in excess of the MTBE and I fully expected to be penalised by DLM.   I wasn't and DLM totally ignored what happened that day - see graph of my stats below.

IMHO, I think perhaps they could lower the algorithm trigger a little so it catches more events, but to class the system as not fit for purpose is unjust.
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WWWombat

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Re: How long should I wait for DLM to remove interleaving?
« Reply #37 on: September 07, 2017, 12:48:19 PM »

IMHO, I think perhaps they could lower the algorithm trigger a little so it catches more events, but to class the system as not fit for purpose is unjust.

My brain won't let me track DLM like I used to, but ... I used to argue the same thing.

IMHO DLM started down a trajectory of becoming unfit for purpose when they made the first adjustments to cope with ECI's G.INP problems.

Choosing to use the FEC+interleaving setting as the post-reset default, making resets unpredictable, letting caps be instilled as anything except a last recourse, making caps irreversible - these are all harsher steps than they need to be, and all have dramatic effects to the sync speed.

I would suggest that DLM needs a new guiding principle: First, do no harm.
Then rework it, following that principle, always asking "will this action be harmful"?
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kitz

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Re: How long should I wait for DLM to remove interleaving?
« Reply #38 on: September 07, 2017, 01:16:16 PM »

This I agree with ^ , although I think things may have started to go to pot after the ASSIA case.   

- They did a botch job with g.inp mkII to 'fix' what was happening with the many modems that weren't fully capable of performing retransmission in both directions.
- They also appear to have done a botch job with capping NGA lines after the ASSIA court case.

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Sorry maybe I didn't make myself clear - Stuart was specifically talking about the Wide Area Event system which is what I was responding to.   
The Wide Area Event detection is afaik unique to BT systems and is one area where IMHO it is better than the other systems which take no account of such things happening locally.   When I said "lower the algorithm trigger a little so it catches more events" I was talking about Wide Area Event detection.

The wide area event thing is one of the good things - the capping and g.inp botch job things are total muck ups and not at all beneficial.   
I've said many times I dislike how INP is applied by default after a reset*, and the line rate capping is unjust in many cases.


*I may have done a rambling post somewhere, why they may be applying INP, but thats not to say I agree with the INP by default.  IMHO it was just a botch to get G.INP back asap. 
Like you I agree they need to sit down and do a total rework of the DLM actions for the NGA system and steps it takes - unfortunately until they at least get both ECI and Huawei systems both behaving in a similar way, then I dont think they will :(
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Chrysalis

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Re: How long should I wait for DLM to remove interleaving?
« Reply #39 on: September 07, 2017, 01:38:15 PM »

I am in 2 minds.

DLM's priority is to maintain stability, low speed is annoying, but a connection dropping out is far more annoying, if it drops out in middle of watching netflix then it wont be a good experience.
In addition I dont think a DLM that keeps flipping between 2 profiles is good, as it creates inconsistent performance (nightmare for personal QoS) as an example as well as further dropouts to enforce those changes.

I think the real problem here is that openreach want to maintain full control of DLM, they dont want to handover a reset button or profile overide option to the ISP's (assuming the ISPs are even asking for it).

Part of that reason I expect is they know that DLM will 'mask' problems, so by removing DLM's actions then the problems become visible again and a net result will be higher fault reports.  A post on TBB on Ixel's issue shows this perfectly, zen told Ixel his line is good because DLM will mask the errors.

I think how long people are expected to wait for g.inp is clearly way too excessive, I dont know why openreach have done that config change as DLM wasnt like that at the start of g.inp rollout.

I think a banded speed cap is vastly superior to interleaving but I value latency a lot more than max burst speed, I respect not everyone agrees with me there, and for that reason banding should not be permanent. At least not a first offence.

Thats my 5 pence in this.
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broadstairs

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Re: How long should I wait for DLM to remove interleaving?
« Reply #40 on: September 07, 2017, 03:26:55 PM »

I take the point about DLM and a reset although it is somewhat annoying to have 65Mbps and then within 12 or so hours get dropped to 57Mbps with interleaving.  My worry about the interleaving is that it was applied and not removed for nearly 4 months despite a very low error rate (thanks to my VMG3925 which is less susceptible to thunderstorm as well), I hope it does not take another 4 months and emails to BT to get it removed this time.

My point about the wide area event is that it is of little use in a location like mine where probably only a small number of folks will be hit by the effect of storms in the Channel or coastal France. we are about 130 feet up a hill and my copper line has line of sight across the Channel to France. I think it is about time they looked at a different way or at least complementary way to view storms, after all there are loads of places which may storms in real time.

Stuart
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kitz

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Re: How long should I wait for DLM to remove interleaving?
« Reply #41 on: September 07, 2017, 04:19:09 PM »

>> My worry about the interleaving is that it was applied and not removed for nearly 4 months despite a very low error rate

If your line was reset, then hopefully it shouldnt take too long especially if your MTBE remains green. :fingers:
I agree its annoying in the meantime though.



>> I think it is about time they looked at a different way or at least complementary way to view storms,


But the DLM device is dumb in that respect and doesn't hook up to any external data - it's only getting info from the element manager which in turn are the same as the data bins in your router.     

I actually think its pretty cool that someone came up with the idea that if > x% of lines on that element manager are throwing errors and or excessive retrains that its likely to be something local, so lets disregard that data.

There's lots of things I don't like about NGA DLM, but the Wide Area Event is one of the few good things that I think BT have got right on their system that can be beneficial to the EU's.  Its a bonus & far better than nothing... which what the other DLM [such as TT's own] systems have.
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broadstairs

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Re: How long should I wait for DLM to remove interleaving?
« Reply #42 on: September 07, 2017, 05:04:23 PM »

I agree that DLM's wide area event process, as far as it goes, is good. However that does not mean that they should rest on their laurels and do nothing. It should not be beyond BT's ability to extend what works for the majority to work for all by capturing data about storms and using it as well as what they have today. Being an island I suspect that there are quite a lot of coastal communities where the current design is less than perfect. Plus in my view it would be good if they could tell that a wide area event was NOT caused by thunderstorms and therefore look closer to find out what the cause was.

Stuart
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Chrysalis

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Re: How long should I wait for DLM to remove interleaving?
« Reply #43 on: September 07, 2017, 05:20:22 PM »

Another thing thats clearly an issue is the late reaction.

Lets say you watching netflix at 8pm and you get a 2 hour burst of noise that just trashes the experience, that noise may not make it resync so the person who may not be mindful a resync might help would just be stressed about a 2 hour outage. 

The DLM we got now would probably take action the following day hours after the incident has ended.  Then keeping the line crippled for several days or even weeks again after the incident has passed.

I would like it that say within if consecutive 5 mins of high ES/CRC then the line is resynced banded or interleaved. (preferably banded for me).  The choice should be picked by if an end user has told their isp they prefer latency (e.g. a gamer) or higher speeds.  Then the line is reviewed again by DLM 24 hours later and if the noise was only a short lived event it reverses the changes, if the event occurs again repeatedly then to prevent a flapping line the recovery time would be set higher to stop the line flapping, however it should try a quick recovery first before deciding that.

Is this type of logical behaviour patented by that silly organisation? I still dont get how someone can patent a software configuration, what a silly world we live in.

For me DLM should be a firefighting service, that can react to short lived events, it shouldnt be used to mask chronic, long term line issues which what seems to be its main purpose with the slow reactions and slow recoveries.
« Last Edit: September 07, 2017, 05:24:42 PM by Chrysalis »
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burakkucat

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Re: How long should I wait for DLM to remove interleaving?
« Reply #44 on: September 07, 2017, 07:07:47 PM »

I think the real problem here is that openreach want to maintain full control of DLM, they dont want to handover a reset button or profile overide option to the ISP's (assuming the ISPs are even asking for it).

Part of that reason I expect is they know that DLM will 'mask' problems, so by removing DLM's actions then the problems become visible again and a net result will be higher fault reports.

There is a post, somewhere, by Black Sheep in which he mentioned that, in certain cases, he would perform a "circuit recalc" upon arrival at the EU's premises. The logic behind his action is so that he can see how the circuit is behaving when not "masked" by the DLM's choice of intervention.
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