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Author Topic: Requesting Openreach move DP line is connected to?  (Read 5887 times)

BC88

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Requesting Openreach move DP line is connected to?
« on: April 26, 2017, 02:09:40 PM »

Hey all,

This is my first post on Kitz, after many years of passively browsing the forum!

I thought I'd start off with a post about an issue I've been looking into for my parents, who are struggling to get VDSL in their village. The village is served by one cab, which was enabled for FTTC in 2015; original estimates from BT's DSL checker showed their line as being able to receive ~20Mbps, but at the time they weren't interested in upgrading. Over the last couple of years their needs have changed and are now looking to take advantage of the higher speeds available to them.

I decided to help them with this, but very quickly noticed an issue that would likely prevent them placing an order. Over time the speeds they're estimated to receive on a VDSL service have dropped from the ~20Mbps quoted above, to 4.1Mbps (Clean - A), which is slightly less, if not the same as the speeds they currently receive from their ADSL2+ service, provided by IDNet.

Something about this dramatic drop prompted me to check the neighbouring properties estimated speeds, so armed with some telephones numbers, I took a look and to my surprise, estimates for neighbouring properties were in the ranges of 40-48Mbps.

I spoke with IDNet to see if they could confirm with Openreach that their data was correct. They came back saying it was correct and noted that the line of our closest neighbour was connected to a different DP than that of my parents. It's worth noting that both this neighbours line and my parents line, connect to the same telegraph pole (situated on my parents property), before feeding back to a DP situated at the end of their shared drive way and that line lengths to this DP are almost identical.

IDNet were able to provide me with the estimated and calculated line lengths of both lines and it appears that our line is an extra >1.5km longer than the neighbours line.

Neighbour:
Circuit line length estimate: 5531
Circuit line length calculated: 4990
DP Line length estimate: 5343

Parents Line:
Circuit line length estimate: 6917
Circuit line length calculated: 6510
DP Line length estimate: 6261

This extra distance would explain the decrease in obtainable speed, but makes little sense (to me) as to why it appears to be connected to a different DP much further away.

Unfortunately IDNet weren't able to help when I asked the obvious question, how do we go about moving the DP the line is connected to and said that it was unlikely Openreach would even consider. So I thought I'd bring this topic up here, to get the experienced thoughts of this community to gauge if this really is something they will have to live with, or if there's a solution?

It's worth noting that the local council partly funded the roll out to this rural location and by their records, the property is able to receive 'superfast' broadband despite the reality being the opposite, which makes me wonder if their property is somehow counted in the % of superfast enabled properties data (when perhaps they shouldn't) - inflating reported numbers AND how many other properties might be in similar situations. But that's probably best saved for a separate thread :)

Thanks for reading, and I look forward to hearing your thoughts!

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burakkucat

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Re: Requesting Openreach move DP line is connected to?
« Reply #1 on: April 26, 2017, 04:20:36 PM »

Welcome to the Kitz forum.  :)

If you have a sufficiently large wallet and are able to submit a full, detailed, business plan to the BT Group plc then yes, you can have a bespoke network rearrangement.

For the average end-user, the answer will always be "no".  :(
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ejs

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Re: Requesting Openreach move DP line is connected to?
« Reply #2 on: April 26, 2017, 04:39:09 PM »

Are you sure both lines are connected to the same cabinet?

Are those line lengths in metres? It must be doing very well to get 4Mb on ADSL2+ over a 6+ km line! What are the ADSL stats (attenuation in particular)?

Is it possible it's just that the estimate is incorrect and not indicative of the speed you'd actually get? Admittedly the low estimate would complicate any fault reporting.
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BC88

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Re: Requesting Openreach move DP line is connected to?
« Reply #3 on: April 26, 2017, 05:36:37 PM »

Welcome to the Kitz forum.  :)

If you have a sufficiently large wallet and are able to submit a full, detailed, business plan to the BT Group plc then yes, you can have a bespoke network rearrangement.

For the average end-user, the answer will always be "no".  :(

Thanks for the welcome and response, burakkucat!

Apologies if I was a little unclear, I think it may have come across that I was referring to the relocation of the DP, rather than just connecting the line to a much closer DP.

Are you sure both lines are connected to the same cabinet?

Are those line lengths in metres? It must be doing very well to get 4Mb on ADSL2+ over a 6+ km line! What are the ADSL stats (attenuation in particular)?

Is it possible it's just that the estimate is incorrect and not indicative of the speed you'd actually get? Admittedly the low estimate would complicate any fault reporting.

Yep definitely the same cab, it's a rural location (the cab is located in the most useless place; outside of the village, where it's least housing-dense, so there are only a small number of properties that actually benefit from 80mb speeds) and yes line lengths are in metres.

I had Openreach out to move the master socket into the attic space at the point of entry a 6/7 years ago, which took the speeds from 1Mb to 4Mb (loads of old extension wiring in the property). It made a huge difference... Unfortunately I don't have access to the line stats, but next time I'm down their way I'll grab these.


Here's some more detail in the meantime, if it's helpful:

Neighbour
You searched for telephone number 012028XXXXXX.
CSS Exchange: WIMBN/ WIMBORNE
District code: ST
BT Post code: BH21 7DH
PCP Id: 20
FCP Id:
DP Number: 676
ANFP Category: M
Circuit line length estimate: 5531
Circuit line length calculated: 4990
DP Line length estimate: 5343
A – Earth capacitance: 289
B – Earth capacitance: 287
Celerity line loss: 53.1





Us
You searched for telephone number 012028XXXXX.
CSS Exchange: WIMBN/ WIMBORNE
District code: ST
BT Post code: BH21 7DH
PCP Id: 20
FCP Id:
DP Number: 680
ANFP Category: X
Circuit line length estimate: 6917
Circuit line length calculated: 6510
DP Line length estimate: 6261
A – Earth capacitance: 375
B – Earth capacitance: 376
Celerity line loss: 57.7
LLC Line loss: 53.17




« Last Edit: April 26, 2017, 05:53:09 PM by BC88 »
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Ronski

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Re: Requesting Openreach move DP line is connected to?
« Reply #4 on: April 26, 2017, 07:53:34 PM »

It would be worth a polite email to the CEO of Openreach, clearly explaining what you've put in this thread, and including addresses and phone numbers.

If it's a simple database issue or routing problem they may well be able to resolve it, but if it is a routing issue and there is no spare capacity to change the routing then it won't happen.
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Black Sheep

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Re: Requesting Openreach move DP line is connected to?
« Reply #5 on: April 26, 2017, 08:43:41 PM »

Firstly, worry not.  :) :) The circuit lengths are the distances from the Telephone Exchange to the premises. The circuits first goes through a Cabinet (in most cases, and as in yours), before it continues on to your DP676 (Telegraph Pole).
The Cabinet can have a whole array of 'Feed cables' carrying the circuits, all of differing lengths and made up of either Aluminium or Copper or a hybrid of both.

However, we are only concerned about the circuit length from the Cabinet to the premises in your case, as all FTTC products (VDSL Broadband) begin their life at the Cabinet, as opposed to your current broadband connection (ADSL Broadband) that begins it's journey at the Telephone Exchange.

You are fed via Cabinet 20, (sometimes seen as 'PCP20') and this is where the VDSL Broadband is sited. It is at the junction of God's Blessing Lane/Holt Lane. The DP you quote (DP676) is on the Holt Lane outside Holt Green Cottage. The approximate distance from PCP20 to this DP is 750mtrs, ergo the estimated figures against your neighbours line being what they are.

My only question is .... how far are you from DP676 ?? Obviously I don't know your parents address to hazard a guess, but you could try and estimate the length of the cable from the top of DP676 to the premises yourself ??.

We sometimes get scenario's whereby the premises will be 'fed' from a certain DP, but there could be another 1km of wire beyond the DP to get to the actual premises, this is usually associated with farm dwellings, but I have to generalise just in case .... ??  ;)

Edit: I wrote the above before I clocked your DP is actually DP680, not DP676 which is your neighbours. Something is amiss, as DP680 is a further 1150mtrs on from DP676 and is sited on Lodge Rd !!
So, either you are an Australian who thinks nothing of a neighbour being over 1km away ....... or you are indeed close neighbours and the 'Routing and Records' held against your circuit are incorrect ??  :)
« Last Edit: April 26, 2017, 08:50:01 PM by Black Sheep »
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WWWombat

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Re: Requesting Openreach move DP line is connected to?
« Reply #6 on: April 27, 2017, 12:18:29 AM »

Just to follow up on what Black Sheep wrote...

The VDSL2 estimates are done based on the DP's identity, and the known losses between the cabinet and the DP. If a line has the wrong DP recorded, then it will get the wrong estimate.

The DP, by the way, is the plastic connection box at the top of the telegraph pole, and the DP number is usually nailed onto the pole at eye level. If their cable goes to that pole, then it almost certainly wires into that DP.

If your parents are actually wired into DP676 like the neighbour, it is likely that, if they ordered, then they'd just get the same speed.

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j0hn

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Re: Requesting Openreach move DP line is connected to?
« Reply #7 on: April 27, 2017, 01:25:43 PM »

Quote
Apologies if I was a little unclear, I think it may have come across that I was referring to the relocation of the DP, rather than just connecting the line to a much closer DP.
He didn't pick you up wrong. OpenReach won't move you between DP's upon request, or everyone would want to be on the nearest DP. Same goes for cabinet, they won't switch these about upon request.

If you and the neighbour you mention both connect to the same telegraph pole then it's most likely incorrect records, as the DP is on the pole.
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BC88

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Re: Requesting Openreach move DP line is connected to?
« Reply #8 on: April 28, 2017, 10:20:05 AM »

Firstly, worry not.  :) :) The circuit lengths are the distances from the Telephone Exchange to the premises. The circuits first goes through a Cabinet (in most cases, and as in yours), before it continues on to your DP676 (Telegraph Pole).
The Cabinet can have a whole array of 'Feed cables' carrying the circuits, all of differing lengths and made up of either Aluminium or Copper or a hybrid of both.

However, we are only concerned about the circuit length from the Cabinet to the premises in your case, as all FTTC products (VDSL Broadband) begin their life at the Cabinet, as opposed to your current broadband connection (ADSL Broadband) that begins it's journey at the Telephone Exchange.

You are fed via Cabinet 20, (sometimes seen as 'PCP20') and this is where the VDSL Broadband is sited. It is at the junction of God's Blessing Lane/Holt Lane. The DP you quote (DP676) is on the Holt Lane outside Holt Green Cottage. The approximate distance from PCP20 to this DP is 750mtrs, ergo the estimated figures against your neighbours line being what they are.

My only question is .... how far are you from DP676 ?? Obviously I don't know your parents address to hazard a guess, but you could try and estimate the length of the cable from the top of DP676 to the premises yourself ??.

We sometimes get scenario's whereby the premises will be 'fed' from a certain DP, but there could be another 1km of wire beyond the DP to get to the actual premises, this is usually associated with farm dwellings, but I have to generalise just in case .... ??  ;)

Edit: I wrote the above before I clocked your DP is actually DP680, not DP676 which is your neighbours. Something is amiss, as DP680 is a further 1150mtrs on from DP676 and is sited on Lodge Rd !!
So, either you are an Australian who thinks nothing of a neighbour being over 1km away ....... or you are indeed close neighbours and the 'Routing and Records' held against your circuit are incorrect ??  :)

Thanks Black Sheep. The properties are about 10-15 metres apart from one another, both lines travel to a pole situated on a shared driveway, before feeding back to a pole on the street, which I believe is DP676 - I'll have to confirm this next time I'm visiting, but if this is correct, it would make our line lengths almost identical, with maybe 2-3 meters difference in overall line length from what I assume to be the DP.

Just to follow up on what Black Sheep wrote...

The VDSL2 estimates are done based on the DP's identity, and the known losses between the cabinet and the DP. If a line has the wrong DP recorded, then it will get the wrong estimate.

The DP, by the way, is the plastic connection box at the top of the telegraph pole, and the DP number is usually nailed onto the pole at eye level. If their cable goes to that pole, then it almost certainly wires into that DP.

If your parents are actually wired into DP676 like the neighbour, it is likely that, if they ordered, then they'd just get the same speed.

IDNet, did suggest that they should try placing an order to see what happens but *I think* the order would likely be rejected by Openreach because the estimated speeds are below their minimum threshold?

He didn't pick you up wrong. OpenReach won't move you between DP's upon request, or everyone would want to be on the nearest DP. Same goes for cabinet, they won't switch these about upon request.

If you and the neighbour you mention both connect to the same telegraph pole then it's most likely incorrect records, as the DP is on the pole.

Thanks for confirming, j0hn. I just wanted to make sure because, after reading my original post back, I realised it could be interpreted as me wanting Openreach to move the DP closer! Which I'm sure would never happen/be an expensive task to carry out. In my mind, if the copper pairs already go via DP676, but for some unknown reason continue to a DP further out, it could only be a case of terminating/connecting the line at this closer distribution point? Which again, in my mind, feels like a fairly trivial task. I'm sure there's more to it than that. Please feel free to educate me :)

I've reached out to Openreach via their  Fibre Broadband Availability form, who've just come back to me with a canned response, basically saying that "this service isn't in my area yet please visit XYZ for more information on when it's due to reach you" Once I can confirm the number on the pole both lines feed back to, I'll push them to check their routing records.

Thank you all for the advice and for the time you've invested into my question(s). I'm hoping for their sake it's a routing records error and not badly implemented infrastructure.

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Black Sheep

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Re: Requesting Openreach move DP line is connected to?
« Reply #9 on: April 28, 2017, 12:17:32 PM »

If, as you comment the properties are basically next to each other ............... there's more chance of spotting Unicorn sh1t, than your parents line being fed via DP680.

It really is a simple case of incorrect 'Routing & Records' that, while it isn't common-place, it has been known to happen.

A simple scenario as to why, could be that DP676 was full when your parents (or A.N. Other) originally placed an order for a phone line, all those years ago ??
As such, this then goes to the 'Planning Dept' to come up with a solution. The Planners would have seen that DP680 further up the road has plenty of spare capacity, and would have implemented a 'Pair Divert ' task to divert a pair (pair of wires) from DP680 to DP676. As both DP's are fed on the same cable-run from the Cabinet, this would be a very simple task to achieve (in general terms).

The problem then may arise, whereby the 'Routing and records' have been updated incorrectly by one of a handful of people who are involved in the process.
As I say, it doesn't happen very often but should be easy to rectify ...... the art is getting the right person to rectify/amend the records via your ISP !!  :)
The good news of course is that your parents WILL get the same speeds as your neighbour.     
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WWWombat

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Re: Requesting Openreach move DP line is connected to?
« Reply #10 on: April 28, 2017, 12:53:33 PM »

IDNet, did suggest that they should try placing an order to see what happens but *I think* the order would likely be rejected by Openreach because the estimated speeds are below their minimum threshold?

If it appears in the BT Wholesale estimation, then Openreach should accept an order. It is BT Retail that have limitations related to their Infinity product line.

At that point, it will all come down to what happens when the DSLAM is connected into the circuit, and the modem tries to sync. At which point it would be worth mentioning that using a modem that gives sound line statistics would be worthwhile.

In my mind, if the copper pairs already go via DP676, but for some unknown reason continue to a DP further out, it could only be a case of terminating/connecting the line at this closer distribution point? Which again, in my mind, feels like a fairly trivial task. I'm sure there's more to it than that. Please feel free to educate me :)

Remember that your parents' "copper pair" doesn't run to the exchange as one pair inside a single cable.

The final "drop wire"  to the house (a cable with only their pair(s) inside it) is unique to them, but gets connected into BT's distribution cables (cable(s) with pairs for many subscribers inside it) at that DP nearest to your parents.

The only way for their copper pair to go via the further DP is for the drop wire to be connected at the nearby DP to a distribution cable heading in the wrong direction. It just isn't very likely. Not very likely at all. Then the further DP would have to be wired strangely, with an incoming distribution pair wired directly back to another distribution pair instead of a drop wire.

A records fault is so much more likely.

I'll push them to check their routing records.

On moving into my current property, BT had to perform a survey to check we could have a line and FTTC. They did this, and within 48 hours, the checker reported it was possible via cab 20 ... which was only 20 yards away.

Unfortunately, reality was different. The property was wired into a different DP, that went to cab 21. A definite records failure.

The engineers could get the phone line working, because they just adjusted the wiring in the exchange MDF. However, they couldn't get the FTTC connection working because the port was being set up in the wrong DSLAM. It took 3 months (and a temporary return to ADSL) to get the records corrected.

Two details might help you:
- Over the three months, every engineer who attended could see what was wrong, but the records still didn't change. When the records finally got updated, the Openreach engineer had been tasked with a "pair prove", where his job was to confirm all the connection and pair identities in the DP, PCP and MDF. That might be a key phrase to ask the ISP for. IIRC, I recall being told the records database was called ROSE.

It took a lot of pressing and escalating by the ISP to get sorted out.

- When an FTTC order is created, it inherits the DP and cab details from the records at that time. If the records change, the order needs to be cancelled, and a new order placed which will inherit the new record data.

Because you can order, and the cab identity is right, it might be less hassle to just place an order...
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BC88

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Re: Requesting Openreach move DP line is connected to?
« Reply #11 on: April 29, 2017, 10:25:49 PM »

WWWombat, Black Sheep, thanks- really appreciate those posts. I got impatient and gave old folks a call, asking them if they'd go hunt for any markings on the pole their line connects into. It turns out it has DP676 stamped on it.

So, if I'm understanding correctly, I should perhaps go back to IDNet and let them know the line does indeed goto DP676 and request a "pair prove"(I assume they can easily raise a fault with Openreach for this type of request?)

Thanks again!! :)
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