Kitz ADSL Broadband Information
adsl spacer  
Support this site
Home Broadband ISPs Tech Routers Wiki Forum
 
     
   Compare ISP   Rate your ISP
 
Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  

News:

Pages: 1 [2] 3

Author Topic: BT DSL tester shows no errors, huge error rates from my router  (Read 4278 times)

aesmith

  • Reg Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 665
Re: BT DSL tester shows no errors, huge error rates from my router
« Reply #15 on: January 04, 2017, 11:37:45 AM »

Cheers.  So can I ask .. what's the actual difference between a "lift and shift" and a "TPM"?   It sounds like TPM was BT's preferred action, only knocked back because of downtime concerns (whether rightly or wrongly on that count).
Logged

aesmith

  • Reg Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 665
Re: BT DSL tester shows no errors, huge error rates from my router
« Reply #16 on: January 04, 2017, 11:44:52 AM »

Found something on TPM from the Rev's blog, it's from 2010 but I don't think anything's changed on 20CN since well before that time .. The dreaded tie pair modification

Quote from: Rev K
"Apparently the process is to disable the existing (and typically mostly working) port immediately and then request an engineer move the service to a new port on the DSLAM (1-3 days) which is configured ready to work. So the line goes off for UP TO THREE DAYS."
Logged

Black Sheep

  • Helpful
  • Kitizen
  • *
  • Posts: 4530
Re: BT DSL tester shows no errors, huge error rates from my router
« Reply #17 on: January 04, 2017, 12:29:00 PM »

All I can speak from is experience. If I am working on a live fault and it requires a TPM/'Lift & Shift' .......... then it is done in the here and now.
I will ring the owning ISP and they will either agree or disagree with my request.

If they agree (which they do 99% of the time), then they will seek a new DSL port on their equipment in the particular Exchange I am working in, and then perform the 'Lift & Shift' ............... it is at this point the downtime begins, and is only exacerbated by the physical time is takes to re-run the connecting wire to the new port on the Main Distribution Frame (MDF) in the Exchange.

Even on a large split-building scenario like Wigan have, this is 90mins at the most. Average probably about 30mins ??.

I can only assume Rev is talking about a pre-ordered TPM ?? By that I mean the service provider booking a slot for a 'Frames (MDF) Engineer' to re-run the wires to the new port that they themselves have allocated. Unfortunately, they are unlikely to get a next-day service as all our work is pre-planned. If I were him, I'd be tempted to ask what date the physical TPM would be carried out by the Frames Engineer, and then have his guys remotely switch the ports on that day, thus keeping downtime to a minimum.

Alas, I don't know what goes on behind the scenes, I just know how long it takes to do the physical side of the work, on average.
Logged

aesmith

  • Reg Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 665
Re: BT DSL tester shows no errors, huge error rates from my router
« Reply #18 on: January 06, 2017, 11:29:55 AM »

Well the lift and shift didn't go ahead, the engineer went to the exchange decided or not (or wasn't permitted) to make the port reassignment.  A&A seem to be able to keep things moving, but it still takes an incredible amount of time.  BTW want an onsite appointment, and I can't manage that now until next Thursday.
Logged

Black Sheep

  • Helpful
  • Kitizen
  • *
  • Posts: 4530
Re: BT DSL tester shows no errors, huge error rates from my router
« Reply #19 on: January 06, 2017, 06:24:26 PM »

Well the lift and shift didn't go ahead, the engineer went to the exchange decided or not (or wasn't permitted) to make the port reassignment.  A&A seem to be able to keep things moving, but it still takes an incredible amount of time.  BTW want an onsite appointment, and I can't manage that now until next Thursday.

The engineer doesn't make the decision, the ISP hold all the aces.
All we do is ring them, once our tester is connected to their DSL port at the HDU in the Exchange. They will look at current performance and historic performance, and then make a decision whether to carry out a 'L&S' based on that info.

The engineer is nothing but a lap-dog during this procedure.
Logged

aesmith

  • Reg Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 665
Re: BT DSL tester shows no errors, huge error rates from my router
« Reply #20 on: January 06, 2017, 07:30:45 PM »

Well I must admit none of this makes sense based on what's visible to me. The notes seem to clearly show BTW suggesting lift and shift, even though it was supposed to have already been done (although they seem to prefer this TPM with it's extended downtime) ..

Quote from: BTW to A&A
"I have checked and can see error seconds present on the circuit.  Please confirm can I go ahead and place TPM order. But once I will place TPM order, circuit will go down. Please confirm so that i can take action accordingly.  We are not re-arranging the Port to move the customer to different VP. It's with the same VP but customer will move to different port and customer circuit will go down.

Please confirm can I go ahead for TPM or I will raise LL13 for Lift and shift."

Quote from: A&A response
"Note please arrange a lift & shift then as extended downtime on a TPM is not acceptable "

Quote from: BTW report
"Engineer completed the job. Notes states that All working ok at the MDF. This circuit has already had a lift and shift completed on the 28/12/16 so by wholesale will not change again. No errors whatsoever. Sync showing 8128 Kbps. Snrm is set to 9db. DCOE are happy that this circuit is working ok at the mdf. Ft2 test passing."

Then they're back to suggesting TPM again ..
Quote from: BTW
"Yes the engineer didn't perform Lift and Shift because the Port was not faulty but i can see the errors are still on the line.  Customer has an active working session for last 18hhs without drops. Please monitor the connection.   If you still want further investigation, we need to book an appointment for the customer or we need to go for TPM order(1 day Lead time)."

It's almost as if in this instance BT Wholesale are making the decisions that you'd expect to come from the ISP.  Maybe a question of ISP scale as to how much direct control they have?
Logged

Black Sheep

  • Helpful
  • Kitizen
  • *
  • Posts: 4530
Re: BT DSL tester shows no errors, huge error rates from my router
« Reply #21 on: January 06, 2017, 08:26:56 PM »

Hmmm ?? I can see how that comes over as confusing ...... I'm not sure myself what's going on now ??
Logged

aesmith

  • Reg Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 665
Re: BT DSL tester shows no errors, huge error rates from my router
« Reply #22 on: January 07, 2017, 09:31:58 AM »

Will just have to see what happens at the next visit.  If that doesn't resolve I might see whether A&A can arrange this "TPM" for Mon/Tue/We the following week, that's when we could best accommodate up to three days downtime.

Meanwhile just to show the irrational nature of the fault, errors dropped to effectively zero at 02:34 this morning.   Only 1 or 2 errors in each hour since.  There have been previous error free episodes in the past, at random times of day and varying between a few minutes and a couple of hours.  I can only assume the original BT test struck one of those periods.  The sudden change doesn't correspond with any apparent change in the noise margin behaviour ..

Logged

aesmith

  • Reg Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 665
Re: BT DSL tester shows no errors, huge error rates from my router
« Reply #23 on: January 13, 2017, 09:59:45 AM »

REIN case now raised.   The last engineer found the line failing again on insulation and fixed a completely unrelated fault.  However he didn't expect that to fix the errors, nor did it do so.  He thinks it's an electric fence, but we'll see what the REIN guys come up with.   The engineer said he could see the same symptoms on our two neighbours, one he tested directly and the other one by looking up the line on BTW systems.

One think I noted on the DSL Status Check ..

BT Test xDSL Status Check:Pass OK.pass OK. Circuit In Sync
BRAS=3000kb/s FTR=288kb/s MSR=288kb/s ServOpt=1 I/L=A
A DSLAM Override is in place. Service Options will not operate whilst an override is present
Up Sync=448kb/s LoopLoss=30dB SNR=19dB HIGH ErrSec=0 HECErr=0 Cells=21275
Down Sync=4256kb/s LoopLoss=55dB SNR=6dB ErrSec=68 HECErr=0 Cells=46338


Does that mean that DLM won't intervene?   Hope so as in reality even this high error rate doesn't affect use or throughput of the Internet connection, it's only harmful if DLM starts to slow us to a crawl to try and clear it.   Annoyingly they seem to have lost the previous MSR/FTR.
Logged

burakkucat

  • Global Moderator
  • Senior Kitizen
  • *
  • Posts: 20314
  • Over the Rainbow
    • The ELRepo Project
Re: BT DSL tester shows no errors, huge error rates from my router
« Reply #24 on: January 13, 2017, 06:23:28 PM »

. . .
A DSLAM Override is in place. Service Options will not operate whilst an override is present
 . . .
Does that mean that DLM won't intervene?

Yes, that is how I interpret the statement.
Logged
:cat:  100% Linux and, previously, Unix. Co-founder of the ELRepo Project.

Please consider making a donation to support the running of this site.

aesmith

  • Reg Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 665
Re: BT DSL tester shows no errors, huge error rates from my router
« Reply #25 on: January 14, 2017, 08:14:09 PM »

Apparently not, it drops us down to 9dB in the small hours this morning.  I'll be pretty hacked off if it keeps dropping the speed, considering that a main part of OR/BTW's argument is that the error rate doesn't affect usability so they don't have to fix it.  They're right to some extent - the errors don't have too great an effect, but slowing the speed down to a crawl certainly would.   Error rate is completely unchanged dropping to 9dB, pretty much constant 70-75 CRCs per minute.
Logged

tickmike

  • Kitizen
  • ****
  • Posts: 3084
  • Yes Another Penguin !. :)
    • Free Download from.
Re: BT DSL tester shows no errors, huge error rates from my router
« Reply #26 on: January 16, 2017, 12:39:21 AM »

Yes, that is how I interpret the statement.

Can an ISP get a ' DSLAM Override is in place.' put on ?.
Logged
I RECOMMEND TRYING / USING PCLinuxOS (www.pclinuxos.com) .
I have a set of 8 fixed IP's From my Eclipse isp.
BT ADSL2 line>HG612 set as a Modem, Bridge, WAN not Bound to LAN1 or 2 >Smoothwall (Hardware Firewall and routing) > Ethernet LAN, DMZ,WiFI LAN and Spare LAN .
DSLstats LAN2  linked Ethernet

burakkucat

  • Global Moderator
  • Senior Kitizen
  • *
  • Posts: 20314
  • Over the Rainbow
    • The ELRepo Project
Re: BT DSL tester shows no errors, huge error rates from my router
« Reply #27 on: January 16, 2017, 01:36:24 AM »

Can an ISP get a ' DSLAM Override is in place.' put on ?.

I am uncertain. The circuit under discussion is one from the G.992.{1|3|5} series, so the ISP/CP can make a request to BT Wholesale for configuration adjustments.  Whether a "DSLAM Override" is permissible . . .  :shrug2:
Logged
:cat:  100% Linux and, previously, Unix. Co-founder of the ELRepo Project.

Please consider making a donation to support the running of this site.

aesmith

  • Reg Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 665
Re: BT DSL tester shows no errors, huge error rates from my router
« Reply #28 on: January 16, 2017, 09:11:49 AM »

Down to 12dB now, error rate completely unchanged at around 70 per minute, 2800 ES per hour.  I'm swithering over whether to over ride at the router, but before I do that I've asked A&A what can be done.   Current speed is below FTR, at least below the FTR that was shown just before the last visit.   BT seem to have reset FTR to 288.

BT Test xDSL Status Check:Pass OK.pass OK. Circuit In Sync
BRAS=2500kb/s FTR=288kb/s MSR=288kb/s ServOpt=1 I/L=A
A DSLAM Override is in place. Service Options will not operate whilst an override is present
Up Sync=448kb/s LoopLoss=30dB SNR=19dB HIGH ErrSec=0 HECErr=0 Cells=22588
Down Sync=3040kb/s LoopLoss=55dB SNR=13dB ErrSec=734 HECErr=0 Cells=49508
Logged

aesmith

  • Reg Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 665
Re: BT DSL tester shows no errors, huge error rates from my router
« Reply #29 on: January 16, 2017, 10:18:51 AM »

I think I need more faith in A&A,  five minutes after I pointed this out to them this morning they've reset things including the IP profile ..

BT Test xDSL Status Check:Pass OK.pass OK. Circuit In Sync
BRAS=3500kb/s FTR=288kb/s MSR=288kb/s ServOpt=1 I/L=A
A DSLAM Override is in place. Service Options will not operate whilst an override is present
Up Sync=448kb/s LoopLoss=30dB SNR=19dB HIGH ErrSec=0 HECErr=0 Cells=20120
Down Sync=4192kb/s LoopLoss=55dB SNR=6dB ErrSec=732 HECErr=0 Cells=31601
Logged
Pages: 1 [2] 3
 

anything