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Author Topic: Ordering another two copper lines (to make a total of five)  (Read 9124 times)

Weaver

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Ordering another two copper lines (to make a total of five)
« on: October 16, 2016, 12:58:56 PM »

[I have probably mentioned this before. Recap.]

Some years back, I tried to order a further two copper lines, to make it a total of five, BT wanted many hundreds of pounds, can't remember exactly, possibly because they were running out in the main bundle, or else just because they hated me for having more than my fair share or because I must be a rich business customer and they saw an opportunity to fleece me. But whatever, it put me right off completel, so they just shot themselves in the foot with their own greed. Which was extremely unfair to the poor ISP.

Does anyone know what BTOR’s rules or practices are for extra lines?
 
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Weaver

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Re: Ordering another two copper lines (to make a total of five)
« Reply #1 on: October 16, 2016, 12:59:57 PM »

I wonder if I dare try again? Answer: just risk it and see. ulp.  ???

Is there any chance things might have improved, as there has been a flurry of new house building in the village and I wonder how this may have affected BT ?  I wonder what happens when they outgrow the cable bundle into the village.
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gt94sss2

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Re: Ordering another two copper lines (to make a total of five)
« Reply #2 on: October 16, 2016, 01:24:45 PM »

Yes, the answer will be just to order and see what they say.

If it had been your first line than Openreach would not have charged you anything under the USO assuming it cost less than £3,400 to provide a voice service

If they had to remove a DACS unit to provide a service then the limit would go up to £8,000

Otherwise, Openreach will generally only cover the first £1,000 of installation costs if it needs to increase network capacity to provide you with new lines.


The relevant Openreach page is here

« Last Edit: October 16, 2016, 02:58:45 PM by gt94sss2 »
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Weaver

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Re: Ordering another two copper lines (to make a total of five)
« Reply #3 on: October 16, 2016, 02:14:07 PM »

These are probably all good questions for the ISP, but I though some knowledgeable kitizens might know something relevant, and that link is useful - thanks for that.

God, what a nightmare. It doesn't sound from that like there’s much hope, as there’s no mention of anything that seems to possibly be linked issues with the total capacity into the village. I can't tell what the ‘length’ of cable would be, as I don't know how to determine what point that length starts from. It could be anything, from the length of a new drop cable, to the total of over four miles of cable to the exchange in Broadford.

Nor can I tell what a ‘cable’ is. How many pairs?

Actually, a thought occurs to me. Perhaps I should have tried asking for one line, not two, because I presumably have a spare pair in the second existing drop cable, which could be used immediately provided there is a decent pair at the other end. When I asked for two additional lines at the same time, perhaps I blew it immediately because they saw that the fifth line would not fit into an existing drop cable? And I wonder if I was getting quoted single or double per-metre charges back then. But they make up the rules as they see fit, that document is so vague. Wherever there is an opportunity to profit out of you, maybe they just go for it, rather than having a responsibility to minimise the charges for you by not quoting for unnecessary items.

And I don't suppose you can get anyone else to do most of the work, although I do see there is something about laying/burying the cable yourself.
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Weaver

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Re: Ordering another two copper lines (to make a total of five)
« Reply #4 on: October 16, 2016, 02:14:41 PM »

It seems so unfair to ISPs that BT can just suppress demand for extra capacity in this way, as there's nothing an ISP can do about it presumably. Perhaps all charges should be abolished and there should be a flat charge to ISPs, with more multiple (‘dark’) pairs being installed into drop cables as a matter of course. That would help ISPs, help small businesses to grow and it would grow the internet. OfCom?
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ejs

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Re: Ordering another two copper lines (to make a total of five)
« Reply #5 on: October 16, 2016, 03:11:51 PM »

Why would anyone want to change the system to install more copper pairs rather than putting in fibre optic cables?

I might consider it unfair if everyone has to pay for loads of excess copper pairs being put in everywhere, of which very few would ever be used. It might sound great, abolish the charges and make Openreach do something for free, but in reality, it's going to be paid for by everyone else.
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gt94sss2

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Re: Ordering another two copper lines (to make a total of five)
« Reply #6 on: October 16, 2016, 03:16:18 PM »

God, what a nightmare. It doesn't sound from that like there’s much hope, as there’s no mention of anything that seems to possibly be linked issues with the total capacity into the village. I can't tell what the ‘length’ of cable would be, as I don't know how to determine what point that length starts from. It could be anything, from the length of a new drop cable, to the total of over four miles of cable to the exchange in Broadford.

Before they proceed with the installation, Openreach would carry out a survey and via your CP - seek your agreement to any costs before proceeding.

Quote
Actually, a thought occurs to me. Perhaps I should have tried asking for one line, not two, because I presumably have a spare pair in the second existing drop cable, which could be used immediately provided there is a decent pair at the other end.

No harm trying this approach if there is a spare pair already in your existing drop cable.

Quote
It seems so unfair to ISPs that BT can just suppress demand for extra capacity in this way, as there's nothing an ISP can do about it presumably. Perhaps all charges should be abolished and there should be a flat charge to ISPs, with more multiple (‘dark’) pairs being installed into drop cables as a matter of course. That would help ISPs, help small businesses to grow and it would grow the internet. OfCom?

Here I disagree for several reasons:


a) these charges affect relatively few people;
b) the charges are regulated by Ofcom;
c) consider the 'payback time' for Openreach to make a return- they get <£10/month per active line and will only charge excess costs if it costs more than £1000
d) drop pairs to residences already normally have more than 1 pair in when they install them though it could also be a lack of capacity elsewhere (one of the big cables going back to an exchange - would cost £££ to add more capacity) though this is much less likely
e) abolishing all charges or adding lots of unused capacity by default would also just end up raising the connection charges for the majority to subsidise a small but very expensive minority.

Expect similar cost issues/caps to also appear when they finally announce detailed plans for the 10MB broadband USO.
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Chunkers

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Re: Ordering another two copper lines (to make a total of five)
« Reply #7 on: October 16, 2016, 04:12:08 PM »

Good luck!  I wouldn't like to be paying your line rental though, 2 is bad enough!

Chunks
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Weaver

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Re: Ordering another two copper lines (to make a total of five)
« Reply #8 on: October 16, 2016, 05:03:29 PM »

Btw: My ‘line rental’ is 3 * £12 per month which I pay to AA direct, well that’s what AA charge for an additional copper pair, with no voice service on it, so that’s possibly not the same as the usual ‘line rental’  to someone like BT Retail, for which you get voice service? I'm pretty pleased with the additional monthly cost of one more copper pair.

@ejs, @gt94sss2 - I hear you about putting up costs for everyone else, this indeed would be a showstopper if it really affected other people’s charges by a noticeable amount. Buut as for extra capacity, that’s why I used the word ‘dark’. I was wondering if it would cost much more to supply drop cables with more pairs in them either by default or as an option, with only one pair initially connected. Anything that would reduce differential costs, saving on labour.

And as for FTTP, indeed no one wants encourage more copper at the expense of FTTP, but there's no foreseeable chance of me getting FTTP in this political climate. I can't afford to lay 4.6 miles of fibre, and I'm not even sure if the exchange could handle it.

It just seems that there is something wrong in a system where I have to pay BT for something and then I don't even own it afterwards, they do, and then they charge me every month for something that I've already paid for?

And it still just feels wrong that ISPs are trapped in the middle over this, that they are effectively at the mercy of BT as far as being able to offer customers room for expansion. I'm not saying I have the answer, I don't, but I wonder if some better plan could be found, and as the guys have said it would have to be without hurting other users noticeably.

(Lots of local users around here used to have two lines, one for a dial-up modem and one for voice. One local person had three lines, a voice line, fax line and one for a dial-up modem! I tried to persuade her to go DSL and get rid of all the line rentals and use an internet-based fax-to-email gateway service that another local user was familiar with.)

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Weaver

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Re: Ordering another two copper lines (to make a total of five)
« Reply #9 on: October 16, 2016, 05:38:30 PM »

Odd idea: The alternative would be to bring the mountain to Mohammed, or whatever the cliché is. For me to go out to meet BT, I would have to park a DSL modem or two out in a field at some point somewhere and run an Ethernet cable out to meet it, plus supplying power for it (poss. power-over-Ethernet, unless distance limits would stop me). I'd have to build a tiny weather-proof hut (basically my ‘cab’), I’d have to pay BT who knows what to connect up in the little hut, and expect bureaucracy if the hut doesn't have an address (unless it's my address and they can understand ‘outbuildings’). Then I'd need to run some ducting and bury it. I'd also probably want to multiplex/demultiplex the pipes to the two modems as in any case I'd need to keep the two instances of PPPoE separate (if memory serves), and even if I wastefully used an Ethernet cable per modem, I've run out of free Ethernet ports for PPPoE connections on my router and so I have to use VLANs for multiplexing at some point.

Madness.

The alternative would be to use RF, which might be a lot less fiddle, but I'd still need to supply power, and there is none anywhere near BT-land.

My house is very high above the road and the main BT cable bundle run into the village is parallel to the road (north-south) on the far side (east side) of the road. The existing cable route to me (I'll describe it in the direction heading towards me) goes up a pole on the far side of the road and then high over the road slanting upwards to a much higher pole on my side, on the top of the bank right near my house, and then from that second pole it comes straight into my upstairs office horizontally at high level. They could have actually not bothered with the poles at all as there's a bridge right by the cable where the stream goes under the road, so they could have used the opening under that bridge, and would not have had to to cross the road at all. I would use that under-bridge route.
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ejs

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Re: Ordering another two copper lines (to make a total of five)
« Reply #10 on: October 16, 2016, 05:46:51 PM »

Surely the final drop cable is the easiest part to replace anyway, because it's the shortest? It would involve putting another cable up a pole or pulling it through a duct. There doesn't seem much point putting lots of extra pairs in if it's easy to add some later anyway, in the very unlikely event more are wanted.

The installation costs would be mostly for the labour, rather than the materials, and the ongoing line rental then covers the maintenance and repair.

Are they really at the mercy of BT? Is there anything stopping any other company putting in their own cables?
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Weaver

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Re: Ordering another two copper lines (to make a total of five)
« Reply #11 on: October 16, 2016, 05:48:19 PM »

In fact, there is pic showing the poles here
    http://forum.kitz.co.uk/index.php/topic,16585.msg306715.html#msg306715

This is taken at the entrance to the village looking south. The BT main cable bundle is buried on the left hand side of the road, my house is high up on the right, just off the edge of this shot, right next to the big tree shown. The river bridge is underneath the road, not visible because the photographer is more-or-less standing right on it.
« Last Edit: October 16, 2016, 05:51:21 PM by Weaver »
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Weaver

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Re: Ordering another two copper lines (to make a total of five)
« Reply #12 on: October 16, 2016, 05:57:24 PM »

> Are they really at the mercy of BT? Is there anything stopping any other company putting in their own cables?

I think perhaps others would know the answer to that. I don’t suppose that you could make BT connect up their copper directly to your own copper though, if you ran your own cable? Wouldn't they just say that they have to own the whole thing. (I think our posts crossed over, btw.)  Running my own Ethernet out to meet them and having their formal network termination be nearer to them and further away from me and differentiated by a change of medium would be different of course.
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ejs

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Re: Ordering another two copper lines (to make a total of five)
« Reply #13 on: October 16, 2016, 06:05:20 PM »

> Are they really at the mercy of BT? Is there anything stopping any other company putting in their own cables?

What I meant was, there's nothing stopping other companies building their own networks.
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gt94sss2

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Re: Ordering another two copper lines (to make a total of five)
« Reply #14 on: October 16, 2016, 06:13:53 PM »

@ejs, @gt94sss2 - I hear you about putting up costs for everyone else, this indeed would be a showstopper if it really affected other people’s charges by a noticeable amount. Buut as for extra capacity, that’s why I used the word ‘dark’. I was wondering if it would cost much more to supply drop cables with more pairs in them either by default or as an option, with only one pair initially connected. Anything that would reduce differential costs, saving on labour.


That's what BT traditionally did - hence I think most dropwires having more than one pair in them.


However, if it hasn't already I suspect this may change in future - given that I suspect demand for send lines is falling given that fax machines and dialup internet are less popular than they one where and xDSL more popular.
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