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Author Topic: Noisy Line is back .. sigh  (Read 2814 times)

Ronski

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Re: Noisy Line is back .. sigh
« Reply #15 on: October 20, 2016, 06:27:10 AM »

If all tests pass ..... we leave and we bill the ISP. Them's the rules. No-one is saying there isn't a fault, but if it isn't prevalent when we're on-site what can we do ??

Perhaps billing the ISP should delayed, say 14 days or possibly longer, and only billed if there is not a repeat fault report with no fault found. Some sort of automated system like this would probably save both sides a lot of wasted time.
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aesmith

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Re: Noisy Line is back .. sigh
« Reply #16 on: October 20, 2016, 10:34:19 AM »

The problem is with faults of this nature, they will be raised as a CDTA (Conscious Decision To Appoint) which means our remit is to carry out a Fast Test before attending site, then once at the premises carry out a PQT, and finally listen for audible noise and perform an Eclipse test.

It's the audible noise that's the issue at the moment, so it's nice to know that is part of the standard test.  Last appointment the engineer did what you said, no fault found on the tests but audible noise.  He passed that back to Underground. 

The problem came when the Underground engineer denied that he could hear audible noise (I could hear it standing next to him, but he had the earpiece to his ear and said he could hear nothing).   The whole experience was odd - for example he tried to test the ADSL with his tester set to PPPoE, and his first attempt at listening for audible noise was with the phone off-hook playing dial tone.   He wanted everything plugged back in and powered up and tested via the DSL faceplate rather than the test socket.  There was a load of other stuff he came out with that didn't seem to make any sense.  It was just a really odd visit, but as this is the last word from OR it puts the CP at a loss how to proceed as understandably they don't want to clock up charges.

DSL is with A&A, PSTN with Pulse 8.
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Dray

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Re: Noisy Line is back .. sigh
« Reply #17 on: October 20, 2016, 10:55:55 AM »

I thought AAISP had a good reputation for being able to kick BT into shape over such faults?
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aesmith

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Re: Noisy Line is back .. sigh
« Reply #18 on: October 20, 2016, 11:00:52 AM »

I thought AAISP had a good reputation for being able to kick BT into shape over such faults?

They do, but this isn't a DSL issue, it lies with the copper pair.  So my plan B is to get them to take over the copper as well, now that we can live without calls on the line.  First I think I need to give Pulse 8 a chance to see if they can move it on.  It's a tough one in any case since the provider can't actually hear the noise first hand, they have me saying it's an abnormal noise (and three or four OR engineers not disputing that) but now they have the last engineer's notes saying it's perfectly quiet. 

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Weaver

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Re: Noisy Line is back .. sigh
« Reply #19 on: October 20, 2016, 02:38:02 PM »

I stopped paying line rental to BT a long while ago and started paying AA for copper pairs instead just for this reason, so there could be no buck-passing over faults and that plan has worked fine for me this year.
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aesmith

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Re: Noisy Line is back .. sigh
« Reply #20 on: November 11, 2016, 10:37:15 AM »

This seems to be a complete brick wall now.   Although there's a clear loud buzz on the line it passes BT remote tests,  meaning we're still in that "conscious decision to appoint" territory.   The CP is trying to dispute charges raised by BT by the guy who said that the line "sounded normal", and won't take any further action at least until those charges are over turned.   The frustrating thing is that I've not managed to find any way or recording the noise, and it isn't audible at the far end of a telephone call (presumably outside the 400-4000 range), so it's firmly my word against there's, making it difficult for the CP.

I'm even considering running my own cable bypassing the problem area.
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moloko

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Re: Noisy Line is back .. sigh
« Reply #21 on: November 18, 2016, 02:09:09 AM »

Hi, the fact that the noise is a great deal more audible to you than the caller would generally indicate the fault is located close to your end of the circuit.

Your following statement really sets the alarm bells ringing, if you will forgive the pun.

One thing I think I need to resolve is that we have concealed joint behind the plaster where the line comes into the house, one sort of cable goes in from the outside, and a different type of cable pops out of the plaster and runs to the socket.

If your issues are BB related remember it is delivered via the copper pair so this really needs to be addressed believe me, as no engineer IMHO worth his salt would be prepared to rely on a measurement taken from the the internal wiring, if as you state it is purely a PSTN issue it still needs to be addressed, as most noisy lines will " LINE TEST OK" so a non service affecting hard fault(Battery/Earth/Loop/Capacitance/AC balance) condition may have been cleared, yet you still have a High Resistance Fault (noisy line).

Please,please,please find and expose that plastered over joint (it will always be problem) and make everyones life that little bit simpler.





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aesmith

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Re: Noisy Line is back .. sigh
« Reply #22 on: November 18, 2016, 12:23:15 PM »

Cheers, I agree the concealed joint is an unknown that could really do with being addressed.   Thinking about it the other day, I can't really see any alternative to cutting a hole and having a look.    It doesn't really move things on, as at the moment the CP are refusing to send OR and I can't see that changing until the fault worsens enough to show up on a remote test. 

I would still put money on the issue lying further away.  Since we moved here it we get three or four line faults a year, and so far all have been found to lie with the cable that runs between our house and the public road.   This is mostly surface run cable and the cable and joints are always getting run over, ploughed up, burned etc.   The fault that was cleared last January lies between two joints along that length and it was cleared by moving our line onto a "better pair" rather than by finding and correcting the actual defect.
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Black Sheep

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Re: Noisy Line is back .. sigh
« Reply #23 on: November 18, 2016, 01:25:08 PM »

Cheers, I agree the concealed joint is an unknown that could really do with being addressed.   Thinking about it the other day, I can't really see any alternative to cutting a hole and having a look.    It doesn't really move things on, as at the moment the CP are refusing to send OR and I can't see that changing until the fault worsens enough to show up on a remote test. 

I would still put money on the issue lying further away.  Since we moved here it we get three or four line faults a year, and so far all have been found to lie with the cable that runs between our house and the public road.   This is mostly surface run cable and the cable and joints are always getting run over, ploughed up, burned etc.   The fault that was cleared last January lies between two joints along that length and it was cleared by moving our line onto a "better pair" rather than by finding and correcting the actual defect.

 For info: That is what we term a 'Fault in length' ...... as opposed to a fault in an accessible joint. Protocol is to change pairs until we are down to the last few, then the planners will request a new cable be pulled in.

Faults 'in length' are generally down to cable/rope burn when pulling in a separate cable/rope/sub-duct down the same length of duct, for example to provide a FTTC cab.
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Weaver

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Re: Noisy Line is back .. sigh
« Reply #24 on: December 09, 2016, 05:32:15 AM »

Are you still thinking about getting AA to take over the line? Would certainly simplify things, less future chance of buck-passing and confusion over categorisation.
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tickmike

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Re: Noisy Line is back .. sigh
« Reply #25 on: December 09, 2016, 09:30:28 AM »

  The frustrating thing is that I've not managed to find any way or recording the noise, and it isn't audible at the far end of a telephone call (presumably outside the 400-4000 range),

We have some DEC phones as well as land-line one's and there is a 'Record call' button on them which is useful for that.
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aesmith

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Re: Noisy Line is back .. sigh
« Reply #26 on: December 09, 2016, 06:47:05 PM »

Are you still thinking about getting AA to take over the line? Would certainly simplify things, less future chance of buck-passing and confusion over categorisation.
Funny you should say that, the order with AA was committed yesterday and although they don't take over the PSTN until a couple of weeks they decided to raise this as a DSL fault.   Have a guy coming out on Thursday.

Fingers crossed my faith in Openreach gets restored.   Up till that last visit they all seemed decent guys, prepared to do what their systems allowed and genuinely wanting to help.  That last guy soured my whole view, he was prepared to tell a straight lie presumably to get the job off his plate, and the fallout is charges to the provider (that I won't be paying) and extreme difficulty in getting the fault moving again.
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aesmith

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Re: Noisy Line is back .. sigh
« Reply #27 on: December 16, 2016, 09:13:32 AM »

One step forward and two back.  I'm finding it hard to keep faith in OR at this stage.  OR engineer turned up, nice helpful guy who'd actually attended before and was surprise that the underground team had denied the fault existed.   This time he said he got an "amber" on his tester, he confirmed abnormal noise on the line that should not be present.   Fault referred to underground team as normal, and I can see from his notes that he's explicitly mentioned the buzzing as well as the test fail.   Openreach have simply vetoed this and not permitted the underground job to be raised.

A&A are on the case, and we'll see whether they can make any progress.

Aside from that I'm seriously thinking the only way that line will be fixed is if I do so myself.
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aesmith

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Re: Noisy Line is back .. sigh
« Reply #28 on: December 29, 2016, 03:38:13 PM »

Forgot I hadn't updated this.   Noisy line is fixed, although not without further almost farcical elements.  I think the (very helpful) OR guy was getting frustrated at repeatedly visiting, proving it as underground but have the case knocked back to him after underground refuses to act.   Anyway after A&A had escalated, and specifically asked for underground "dig" engineer to be assigned, who should we get on doorstep was the very same guy, very apologetic and saying he can't understand why he was sent back.  He was back the same afternoon with another (presumably underground) guy and together they tracked down and fixed the fault.   As expected it was on the stretch where we'd been swapped to another pair last winter, but this time they found the hidden joint, basically smashed and buried in the mud so not readily visible.
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burakkucat

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Re: Noisy Line is back .. sigh
« Reply #29 on: December 29, 2016, 03:45:53 PM »

Hopefully there will be no more trouble with that line.  :fingers:
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