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Author Topic: Maximum acceptable per hour  (Read 7395 times)

renluop

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Maximum acceptable per hour
« on: August 15, 2016, 10:50:49 AM »

No problem is involved; I'm very just curious. :o

What are the acceptable per hour figures for CRC, HEC, ES per hour for the various ADSL/ VDSL protocols? Are they the same for fastpath as for interleaved?
« Last Edit: August 16, 2016, 03:20:02 PM by renluop »
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ejs

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Re: Maximum acceptable per hour
« Reply #1 on: August 15, 2016, 04:28:30 PM »

It depends on what you mean by acceptable, what's acceptable for a particular user would depend on what they are using the line for.

Or if you mean what's the maximum permitted as defined in the ITU technical recommendation documents themselves, then I suppose it would be based on the maximum allowed bit error ratio, which for VDSL2 is 1 bit error in 107 bits. For ADSL2/2+ it's in theory a configurable value, but I think 1 in 107 is the one generally used. Then, of course, the permitted numbers of CRC errors per hour depend on how many bits per second are transmitted.

There are formulae given in Broadband Forum TR-100 and TR-114 for estimating the Bit Error Ratio from the CRC count, in the "margin verification test".

With G.INP, the ITU document mentions a minimum MTBE of 14,400 seconds, which is one uncorrected error every 4 hours, which is what is considered tolerable for watching HDTV (as in live multicast IPTV, not watching iPlayer on demand). I don't think that's the minimum MTBE actually allowed, but it's used to define the SNRM.
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renluop

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Re: Maximum acceptable per hour
« Reply #2 on: August 16, 2016, 03:18:53 PM »

I'm but a simple chappie, and those links are way beyond me! ;D My usage is quite mundane and pedestrian for the very most part.

As it happened I was doing some fiddling with the error averages from DSLStats to exercise my mind, and coincidentally they revealed that for two three hour periods the error rates rose considerably, and some on the upside appeared. Are some too high for my fastpath connection?

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aesmith

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Re: Maximum acceptable per hour
« Reply #3 on: August 16, 2016, 03:57:41 PM »

68 SES in a three hour period looks a little high, did something happen in that time period?   
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ejs

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Re: Maximum acceptable per hour
« Reply #4 on: August 16, 2016, 04:03:39 PM »

If you don't notice any problems with your usage of the connection, then the stats aren't a problem.
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renluop

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Re: Maximum acceptable per hour
« Reply #5 on: August 16, 2016, 06:41:55 PM »

@aesmith
That 68 is 68/hour in the period. Yes, the up SNRM dipped considerably, rising later. The router. Connection 6 a.m.
Upstream rate = 707 Kbps, Downstream rate = 7707 Kbps: midday; Upstream rate = 675 Kbps, Downstream rate = 7771 Kbps: 3 p.m; Upstream rate = 587 Kbps, Downstream rate = 7771 Kbps.

Previously seen was:Upstream rate = 923 Kbps, Downstream rate = 7835 Kbps. Before transfer to PN's new network I was achieving down sync over 8000 and up ~1000 kbps, but the old was interleaved 64 and now I am free path with seemingly sinking downstream and erratic upstream, but with 20 m/s less delay.

Any comments are welcome.

[Moderator edited to remove the incorrect attachments.]
« Last Edit: August 16, 2016, 08:49:54 PM by burakkucat »
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aesmith

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Re: Maximum acceptable per hour
« Reply #6 on: August 16, 2016, 06:53:15 PM »

From my experience, CRC error rates of up to around one per second didn't seem to slow throughput significantly.  On my circuit that would be one packet in 300 or so that needed to be retransmitted, and any decent TCP implementation should take that in it's stride.   So from my point of view the concern would be whether the error rate is sufficient from DLM to step in and start slowing things down.   If you're running fast path then I guess this hasn't happened, as I think interleaving is the first thing DLM tries if it's not happy.

However from what you've just said it appears your connection is dropping, which it shouldn't do.  Unless those different speeds resulted from you disconnecting and reconnecting?
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renluop

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Re: Maximum acceptable per hour
« Reply #7 on: August 16, 2016, 06:59:27 PM »

Please ignore attachments. Here are correct ones. :-[

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renluop

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Re: Maximum acceptable per hour
« Reply #8 on: August 16, 2016, 07:03:14 PM »

I try to avoid!
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ejs

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Re: Maximum acceptable per hour
« Reply #9 on: August 16, 2016, 07:35:33 PM »

No problem is involved

OK then, we'll soon change that. Can we get a full set of stats, and a description of your master socket, wiring arrangement and filters and see what could be improved upon?
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renluop

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Re: Maximum acceptable per hour
« Reply #10 on: August 16, 2016, 08:50:34 PM »

Like thse to start with; what else in pariticular do you need?
Code: [Select]
adsl info --stats
adsl: ADSL driver and PHY status
Status: Showtime
Last Retrain Reason:    8000
Last initialization procedure status:   0
Max:    Upstream rate = 888 Kbps, Downstream rate = 7776 Kbps
Bearer: 0, Upstream rate = 888 Kbps, Downstream rate = 7619 Kbps

Link Power State:       L0
Mode:                   ADSL2+ Annex A
TPS-TC:                 ATM Mode(0x0)
Trellis:                U:ON /D:ON
Line Status:            No Defect
Training Status:        Showtime
                Down            Up
SNR (dB):        3.3             5.8
Attn(dB):        47.0            27.3
Pwr(dBm):        0.0             12.7

                        ADSL2 framing
                        Bearer 0
MSGc:           59              12
B:              238             27
M:              1               1
T:              1               4
R:              0               0
S:              0.9995          1.0000
L:              1913            224
D:              1               1

                        Counters
                        Bearer 0
SF:             1203373         153910
SFErr:          327             99
RS:             0               881024
RSCorr:         0               0
RSUnCorr:       0               0

                        Bearer 0
HEC:            835             107
OCD:            8               0
LCD:            8               0
Total Cells:    351248561               40848352
Data Cells:     16275054                623911
Drop Cells:     0
Bit Errors:     26740           5779

ES:             253             64
SES:            0               0
UAS:            62              62
AS:             19548

                        Bearer 0
INP:            0.00            0.00
INPRein:        0.00            0.00
delay:          0               0
PER:            16.24           18.00
OR:             32.01           8.00
AgR:            7622.22 892.51

Bitswap:        2067/2067               0/0

Total time = 5 hours 26 min 50 sec
FEC:            0               0
CRC:            327             99
ES:             253             64
SES:            0               0
UAS:            62              62
LOS:            0               0
LOF:            0               0
LOM:            0               0
Latest 15 minutes time = 11 min 50 sec
FEC:            0               0
CRC:            44              0
ES:             24              0
SES:            0               0
UAS:            0               0
LOS:            0               0
LOF:            0               0
LOM:            0               0
Previous 15 minutes time = 15 min 0 sec
FEC:            0               0
CRC:            12              0
ES:             12              0
SES:            0               0
UAS:            0               0
LOS:            0               0
LOF:            0               0
LOM:            0               0
Latest 1 day time = 5 hours 26 min 50 sec
FEC:            0               0
CRC:            327             99
ES:             253             64
SES:            0               0
UAS:            62              62
LOS:            0               0
LOF:            0               0
LOM:            0               0
Previous 1 day time = 0 sec
FEC:            0               0
CRC:            0               0
ES:             0               0
SES:            0               0
UAS:            0               0
LOS:            0               0
LOF:            0               0
LOM:            0               0
Since Link time = 5 hours 25 min 47 sec
FEC:            0               0
CRC:            327             99
ES:             253             64
SES:            0               0
UAS:            0               0
LOS:            0               0
LOF:            0               0
LOM:            0               0
 >

Wiring:
Master is standard NTE5, which a tradesman replaced a few weeks back, because experiencing problems. (memory fails what they were). Into that is connected my answerphone base unit via good quality dangly filter.
The master has leading from it a hard wired in wall cavity extension to my lair immediately above to a labelled extension socket. All ring wires are absent. The DSL lead connects via a similar filter to a Billion 8800NL router.

This serves, wirelessly, my computer, printer, internet radio and wife's tablet, and by Powerline, the Freesat HDR I player.
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renluop

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Re: Maximum acceptable per hour
« Reply #11 on: August 18, 2016, 05:59:55 PM »

@ejs  :) s ther anything else you're wanting in particular, plese?
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ejs

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Re: Maximum acceptable per hour
« Reply #12 on: August 18, 2016, 06:17:35 PM »

No, the wiring arrangement sounds like it's probably OK and the line speed looks about right for the attenuation considering the SNRM.

Have you considered removing the powerline networking adapters to see if that changes anything?
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renluop

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Re: Maximum acceptable per hour
« Reply #13 on: August 18, 2016, 07:01:37 PM »

Not at moment, as they were recommended by BBC IPlayer, and I think also location of STB in lounge and the router upstairs is possibly nearing limit @24' through wall and ceiling. However, I shall probably give it a whirl when I change the HDR in the next month or so.
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renluop

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Re: Maximum acceptable per hour
« Reply #14 on: August 21, 2016, 04:39:10 PM »

Can I come back with a quickie?

I've noticed that my up sync has dropped to 519 kbps; up snrm has doubled from 6 to 12 db.
Also noted is that up power has reduced from 12.7 dB to 10.5 dB.

What could have caused the power reduction, and would that have influenced the deterioration of sync and margin? Thanks!
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