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Author Topic: G.INP/Retransmission roll-out on ECI cabinets - UPDATE 30/04/2016  (Read 14009 times)

ejs

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Re: G.INP/Retransmission roll-out on ECI cabinets - UPDATE 30/04/2016
« Reply #30 on: May 08, 2016, 01:32:12 PM »

I still don't think it makes any sense for BT to disable G.INP on all ECI lines because of what must be a comparatively very small number of FritzBox and Draytek devices. I think the vast majority of all end users will be using ISP supplied devices, plus I would have thought that the people who would buy a relatively expensive high-end device like a FritzBox or Draytek might also have a "free" ISP supplied device for testing or fault diagnostic purposes.

Or would they instead get offended at the suggestion that their 200+ device might be at fault?  ::)
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skyeci

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Re: G.INP/Retransmission roll-out on ECI cabinets - UPDATE 30/04/2016
« Reply #31 on: May 08, 2016, 02:24:38 PM »

I think what will be highly unfair is if the eci g.inp gets abandoned. Still goes back to "we pay the same" yet users fortunate enough to not be on an eci cab in general get a better sync etc as we have seen prior to removal.
Perhaps eci users should get a discount  till its resolved if ever as its not a level playing field at the moment. I noticed looking up my town all the cabinets are eci .
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Sky Fibre Pro -  zyxel vmg8324 (bridge mode) + PFSENSE (APU2C4) 2.4.0 with ipv6 , AC-88U WAP- ECI cab, G.INP disabled as of 8th April 2016

http://www.mydslwebstats.co.uk user upload ID skyECI (using a pi3)

ejs

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Re: G.INP/Retransmission roll-out on ECI cabinets - UPDATE 30/04/2016
« Reply #32 on: May 08, 2016, 04:17:45 PM »

And perhaps we should switch off all FTTC cabinets until FTTC/P is available everywhere. And rip out any FTTP and give them FTTC instead, otherwise that wouldn't be fair either. And limit everyone's broadband bandwidth to whatever the lowest universally available bandwidth is. I think some things like those would be the only way to make it a level playing field. :P Paying a variable price according to whatever speed you're getting each hour would probably be to complicated, but it's not fair that people paying the same price might get different speeds depending on how far away from their cabinet they are.
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kitz

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Re: G.INP/Retransmission roll-out on ECI cabinets - UPDATE 30/04/2016
« Reply #33 on: May 08, 2016, 06:53:54 PM »

I'm assuming they tried G.INP Mk1 on ECI cabs and now they'll do G.INP Mk2.

What is (was) done on the ECI's is (was) 'G.INP Mk2'.

Difference between Mk1 and Mk2 was Mk1 by default used upstream G.INP.  This caused devices such as the ECI modem which can only do downstream g.inp, to apply Interleave & FEC.   Hence the loss of 10Mbps of speed and high latency.

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Dray

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Re: G.INP/Retransmission roll-out on ECI cabinets - UPDATE 30/04/2016
« Reply #34 on: May 08, 2016, 07:01:51 PM »

I would have thought there is something in G.INP MK2 that can detect devices that don't support it and turn it off. I feel this is currently missing from the ECI implementation.
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kitz

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Re: G.INP/Retransmission roll-out on ECI cabinets - UPDATE 30/04/2016
« Reply #35 on: May 08, 2016, 07:07:32 PM »

I still don't think it makes any sense for BT to disable G.INP on all ECI lines because of what must be a comparatively very small number of FritzBox and Draytek devices. I think the vast majority of all end users will be using ISP supplied devices, plus I would have thought that the people who would buy a relatively expensive high-end device like a FritzBox or Draytek might also have a "free" ISP supplied device for testing or fault diagnostic purposes.

Or would they instead get offended at the suggestion that their 200+ device might be at fault?  ::)

I agree.  I wouldnt be surprised if there is some other (possibly ISP) modem somewhere.

The Draytek case I linked to above, had no problems when using the PN supplied router - just the Draytek.
I also asked Simon who had problems with his Fritz!box disconnecting if he saw the same issue with another modem, but didnt get a reply.
None of the 3 cases on TBB mentioned they'd tried other modems either.
 
I dont monitor the ISP forums, but Ive not seen any of the issues reported on an ECI modem anywhere.
I've seen one 'possible' HH5A on Plusnet (therefore may not have updated f/w?).

Ive just checked out the Sky forums - admittedly Ive only checked the first page..  but it will be something like this that we are looking for - note how it suddenly started after 17th of March which is when rollout started..  then note someone else says 'me too'.   Details are scarce, but what if it's say one of the older Sky hubs...  may be another older ISP modem such as TT...  who knows?   
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Dray

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Re: G.INP/Retransmission roll-out on ECI cabinets - UPDATE 30/04/2016
« Reply #36 on: May 08, 2016, 07:12:54 PM »

That sky router is supporting G.INP - bearer 1 in the log.
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kitz

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Re: G.INP/Retransmission roll-out on ECI cabinets - UPDATE 30/04/2016
« Reply #37 on: May 08, 2016, 07:22:12 PM »

I would have thought there is something in G.INP MK2 that can detect devices that don't support it and turn it off. I feel this is currently missing from the ECI implementation.

There is and always has been 2 issues.

Issue 1 is if the modem doesn't support retransmission properly in the downstream direction, then it will have problems with PPP.
     ~ This is why Openreach rolled out new firmware to both the ECI & Huawei modems during 2014/2015.
Issue 2 is if the modem doesnt support retransmission in the upstream then it will :-
     ~ G.INP Mk1 - Apply Interleave and FEC.  Resulting in loss of sync speed and high latency.  Previous default was upstream G.INP on
     ~ G.INP Mk2 - Leave upstream by default as Interleave off.   Only apply G.INP on upstream if the line needs it and if the modem can support.

It looks like by default Openreach have set their DSLAMS to enforce downstream retransmission.
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Dray

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Re: G.INP/Retransmission roll-out on ECI cabinets - UPDATE 30/04/2016
« Reply #38 on: May 08, 2016, 07:35:48 PM »

It looks like by default Openreach have set their DSLAMS to enforce downstream retransmission.
I still think there is something in addition to that which can detect the device does not support G.INP in the downstream and so it turns it off - this is what's missing on ECI cabs, or maybe it needs to be more aggressive.

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ejs

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Re: G.INP/Retransmission roll-out on ECI cabinets - UPDATE 30/04/2016
« Reply #39 on: May 08, 2016, 07:37:37 PM »

Ive just checked out the Sky forums - admittedly Ive only checked the first page..  but it will be something like this that we are looking for - note how it suddenly started after 17th of March which is when rollout started..  then note someone else says 'me too'.   Details are scarce, but what if it's say one of the older Sky hubs...  may be another older ISP modem such as TT...  who knows?

The person who says "me too" is on ADSL2/2+ according to their logs, it must be Sky LLU using G.INP on the downstream, therefore it can't be the same Openreach FTTC issue.

It may be that we won't find out what the problem is from individual reports, perhaps Openreach have evaluated the overall performance from the DLM data collected, and found that since G.INP was enabled for the ECI cabinets, it has made something worse, I'm guessing it might have increased the amount of re-trains (DSL drop-outs), which wasn't expected.
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kitz

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Re: G.INP/Retransmission roll-out on ECI cabinets - UPDATE 30/04/2016
« Reply #40 on: May 08, 2016, 08:29:49 PM »

Quote
The person who says "me too" is on ADSL2/2+ according to their logs,

Didn't notice that with the 'me tooer' as I was only scanning  :-[.. but still doesnt take away the first post is the type of thing that would indicate an issue with g.inp on ECI.  The OP post was an example of the type of thing to look out for on forums.
We have definitely been seeing the PPP failures for some the drayteks.

Quote
I'm guessing it might have increased the amount of re-trains (DSL drop-outs), which wasn't expected.

All I can say is that Ive been told about 4/5 times now (and 2 different sources) that the main issue is PPP.
I can't quote everything direct but it is very clear that it is "Protocal (PPP) session type faults i.e. - unable to connect to the internet yet the VDSL service is in sync" & "PPP failures"

They are aware of the "spikes of impulse noise", but its the PPP which is the major concern as that is classed as service affecting.

I'm just trying to get info and pass on what I have to you guys :(
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broadstairs

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Re: G.INP/Retransmission roll-out on ECI cabinets - UPDATE 30/04/2016
« Reply #41 on: May 08, 2016, 08:33:08 PM »

Looking at the situation with some of use on ECI cabinets who dont have issue which affect our use then I can only suggest that the problem is at the end user end with hardware which does not support G.INP and to my mind that means there should be a method of turning it off for those affected until their ISP can provide hardware which does support G.INP. OK that might mean some ISPs having to provide new modems but tough they make enough money out of end users to do this.

My line was up for 40 days continuously with no detectable performance affecting issues on an ECI cabinet and now I suffer because they pull it completely on the ECI estate.

Stuart
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kitz

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Re: G.INP/Retransmission roll-out on ECI cabinets - UPDATE 30/04/2016
« Reply #42 on: May 08, 2016, 08:37:35 PM »

I would have thought there is something in G.INP MK2 that can detect devices that don't support it and turn it off. I feel this is currently missing from the ECI implementation.

The ECIs certainly seem more picky and this must be more of a serious problem to roll back totally.
Perhaps it can't detect if the EU equipment is compatible or not - I don't know. 

However, I do know last year the Draytek 2850 had the same issue with Huawei cabs.   This is a comment I got last year by someone who had been trying to get Draytek release new f/w for his 2850.. and upon being told in May 2015 they wouldnt.

"I got the 2850 in 2012 and had hoped it would have lasted longer than it has. With a retail value at the time in excess of 200 I'm surprised it's now going to be consigned to my kit box in the loft so soon :( "
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licquorice

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Re: G.INP/Retransmission roll-out on ECI cabinets - UPDATE 30/04/2016
« Reply #43 on: May 08, 2016, 09:24:18 PM »

From G998.4


11.1.13 Retransmission Mode (RTX_MODE)
The RTX_MODE is a configuration parameter used to control activation of retransmission during
initialization.
This parameter has 4 valid values:
0: RTX_FORBIDDEN: ITU-T G.998.4 retransmission not allowed.
1: RTX_PREFERRED: ITU-T G.998.4 retransmission is preferred by the operator.
(i.e., if ITU-T G.998.4 RTX capability is supported by both XTU's, the XTU's shall select
ITU-T G.998.4 operation for this direction).

2: RTX_FORCED: Force the use of the ITU-T G.998.4 retransmission.
(i.e., if ITU-T G.998.4 RTX capability in this direction is not supported by both XTU's or
not selected by the XTU's, an initialization failure shall result).
NOTE Due to the optionality of ITU-T G.998.4 retransmission in upstream direction, the use of
RTX_FORCED in upstream may lead to initialization failure, even if the XTU is supporting
ITU-T G.998.4 (in downstream).
3: RTX_TESTMODE: Force the use of the ITU-T G.998.4 retransmission in the test mode
described in clause 10.4.
(i.e., if ITU-T G.998.4 RTX capability is not supported by both XTU's or not selected by
the XTU's, an initialization failure shall result).

I would have thought the only possible mode of operation would be Mode 1 where G.Inp is only initiated if supported.

I.e if G.Inp capability cannot be detected, it isn't implemented.
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kitz

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Re: G.INP/Retransmission roll-out on ECI cabinets - UPDATE 30/04/2016
« Reply #44 on: May 08, 2016, 10:14:41 PM »

iirc, ejs and I had a convo about the G998.4 modes last year?

There's a possibility that Openreach may be using RTX_FORCED (2) on the downstream because it appears to over-ride any setting that the EU may make on their equipment.   
As mentioned at the time, it also fits with ITU statement "an initialization failure shall result".. which is basically ECI modem Issue 1.

Quote
8th Jan 2015: ECI modems with old firmware connected to a G.INP enabled DSLAM, will appear to have sync but are not able to complete the initialisation process or get a PPP session.

For the Huawei cabs - it looks like RTX_PREFERRED (1) is used on the upstream.   It will presumably be turned off for upstream on the ECI cabs.

----

Damn..  if I'd have thought sooner I could have tried turning it off on my modem to see what happens on an ECI cab. 
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