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Author Topic: G.INP/Retransmission roll-out on ECI cabinets - UPDATE 30/04/2016  (Read 13942 times)

kitz

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As previously reported on kitz, we first noticed the nationwide roll out of G.INP/Retransmission to ECI cabinets on the 17th of March.

We have been closley monitoring the progress of the roll-out, but by early April it was clear all was not well and some lines were experiencing issues which resulted in a high rate of faults being reported to Openreach and at this time we announced that ECI roll-out was being suspended and retransmission was being removed from some lines.

To date circa 260k lines have had retransmission removed, but unfortunately the fault rate is still much higher level than Openreach would expect, so last week Openreach took the decision to remove G.INP/retransmission for the vast majority of lines on their ECI network.

Phase 2 roll-back commenced 27th of April and is expected to be complete by next week. Openreach are continuing to monitor fault levels and are working with their vendor to find a permanent solution.  An update is due mid May.

Roll back in itself has not been without problems and already we have noticed stable lines which have never been interleaved having interleaving and Forward Error Correction applied, which has reduced line rates considerably to less than before G.INP was applied.  Conversely some other lines which obviously need Error Protection are left experiencing extremely high rates of Errored Seconds and are on an open DLM profile.   All-in-all its not going too great right now. :(
« Last Edit: May 01, 2016, 07:26:05 PM by kitz »
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Chrysalis

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Re: G.INP/Retransmission roll-out on ECI cabinets - UPDATE 30/04/2016
« Reply #1 on: April 30, 2016, 04:50:11 PM »

thanks for the update, not good news.

It is strange given that most people who are posting on forums appeared happy with g.inp.
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simoncraddock

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Re: G.INP/Retransmission roll-out on ECI cabinets - UPDATE 30/04/2016
« Reply #2 on: April 30, 2016, 04:59:10 PM »

Since it was applied to my line several weeks ago my connection has been dropping every couple of days compared to every few months. I've just returned home from a weeks vacation to now find interleaving has been enabled, so I'm not happy with BT right now.

So now I'm currently waiting on Plusnet support to raise it with BT.
« Last Edit: April 30, 2016, 05:05:01 PM by simoncraddock »
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Dray

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Re: G.INP/Retransmission roll-out on ECI cabinets - UPDATE 30/04/2016
« Reply #3 on: April 30, 2016, 05:07:19 PM »

It's not really up to the users to evaluate how the Openreach network is performing.I think Openreach are unhappy with the impact of ECI G.INP on their network and have decided not to live with it.
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Chrysalis

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Re: G.INP/Retransmission roll-out on ECI cabinets - UPDATE 30/04/2016
« Reply #4 on: April 30, 2016, 05:22:32 PM »

Dray true, but this is down to faults, a fault starts with a user reporting to their CP.

Ultimately from openreach point of view, the business case for g.inp is to reduce faults they have to fix.  It seems this rollout actually went the other way instead.
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WWWombat

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Re: G.INP/Retransmission roll-out on ECI cabinets - UPDATE 30/04/2016
« Reply #5 on: April 30, 2016, 09:29:00 PM »

Roll back in itself has not been without problems [...]  All-in-all its not going too great right now. :(

Too true.

a fault starts with a user reporting to their CP.

Not always. Indeed, in most of my professional life, most of the faults I've dealt with originate with the operator themselves, not the end-user. Appropriate use of OMC/NMS should give a proper overview of the statistics of large-scale behaviour.
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kitz

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Re: G.INP/Retransmission roll-out on ECI cabinets - UPDATE 30/04/2016
« Reply #6 on: May 01, 2016, 12:14:12 AM »

>> It is strange given that most people who are posting on forums appeared happy with g.inp.


These are likely those who know what is going on and have access to stats.    If they have access to full stats, then they are unlikely to be using the ECI modem/HH5A.

The FEC & Err/sec bursts that have been seen only since ReTX is also weird. 
Most people are reporting upstream bursts between 9-10pm.  Im seeing downstream bursts at ~ 10am.
Because there is no FEC on my downstream, it has to be something related to g.inp
 
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Chrysalis

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Re: G.INP/Retransmission roll-out on ECI cabinets - UPDATE 30/04/2016
« Reply #7 on: May 01, 2016, 07:00:56 AM »

Not always. Indeed, in most of my professional life, most of the faults I've dealt with originate with the operator themselves, not the end-user. Appropriate use of OMC/NMS should give a proper overview of the statistics of large-scale behaviour.

Are you talking about the UK CPs tho?  AAISP are the only isp I am aware of that even actively monitors their customer line's, on plusnet e.g. people can have lines that are down for weeks and plusnet is unaware until the end user reports it.  Why would a CP report a faulty line to openreach if their customer appears to be happy?
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kitz

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Re: G.INP/Retransmission roll-out on ECI cabinets - UPDATE 30/04/2016
« Reply #8 on: May 01, 2016, 10:02:23 AM »

I think wombat may mean Openreach/BT.
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kitz

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Re: G.INP/Retransmission roll-out on ECI cabinets - UPDATE 30/04/2016
« Reply #9 on: May 01, 2016, 07:28:27 PM »

Ive removed the info about multi-cast as it looks like they may have already made a decision on this and are removing it on those lines too.
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WWWombat

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Re: G.INP/Retransmission roll-out on ECI cabinets - UPDATE 30/04/2016
« Reply #10 on: May 06, 2016, 12:36:27 AM »

Ooops - sorry, I missed the question.

Not always. Indeed, in most of my professional life, most of the faults I've dealt with originate with the operator themselves, not the end-user. Appropriate use of OMC/NMS should give a proper overview of the statistics of large-scale behaviour.

Are you talking about the UK CPs tho?

I'm really talking about operators with their own infrastructure, and the network-management functionality to monitor it, or to perform self-test on it. Such operators are perfectly capable of observing a fault themselves, reporting it themselves, and fixing it themselves.

This is, of course, an issue way beyond the scope of just a fault with one copper access pair. But even that can be seen and fixed - BT have their own self-test hardware that can be deployed automatically.

My background is, however, more from the mobile world and seen from the equipment vendor perspective. At times, I've been involved with Vodafone, TMobile, and O2 in the UK, and plenty of other operators around the world. I still remember my first visit to one2one's network management centre, with many status screens across the wall - including all the indications of alarms from various pieces of hardware, or various links that had failed.

On the issue at hand, I would have thought that any decisions to trial, or subsequently roll out, G.INP on ECI DSLAMs would be run with monitoring of the resulting outcome. Some idea of how many subscribers got faster speeds vs lower speeds. Some idea of how many subscribers got fewer FECs vs higher FECs (same for ES, CRC etc). Given the delays, I'd expect people from Openreach, TSO and ECI to work hand-in-hand at both gathering those statistics, and analysing them for problems.

We know BT monitored the outcome for the Huawei estate, as we've seen graphs of a couple of outcomes:

http://postimg.org/image/bnxq1bpxd/
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WWWombat

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Re: G.INP/Retransmission roll-out on ECI cabinets - UPDATE 30/04/2016
« Reply #11 on: May 06, 2016, 12:37:30 AM »

Ive removed the info about multi-cast as it looks like they may have already made a decision on this and are removing it on those lines too.

This post looks a little strange when the info about multicast has already been removed. It made me wonder what the information used to be!
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Chrysalis

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Re: G.INP/Retransmission roll-out on ECI cabinets - UPDATE 30/04/2016
« Reply #12 on: May 06, 2016, 01:37:02 AM »

thanks for the reply to my question, but given the approach openreach take to performance related faults, its a "best effort" basis and their engineers are instructed to not even check for speeds on things like pair swaps, the only thing that matters is sin compliance.  For that reason I would be surprised if openreach took it upon themselves to declare speed drops as faulty lines.  Given the statements we have had access to I am more inclined to think faults raised by end users is what has risen and to levels openreach (or/and the CPs) considered unacceptable.

My gut guess is the daily FEC spikes we have seen is on some modems causing disconnections and these disconnections are the trigger for the faults.
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kitz

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Re: G.INP/Retransmission roll-out on ECI cabinets - UPDATE 30/04/2016
« Reply #13 on: May 06, 2016, 08:41:20 AM »

@wombat.

Sorry, it originally said that they may not remove g.inp on those lines which had multi-cast (IPTV from their ISP) as those were the lines which would benefit most, but that they would make a decision on that in the next few days.  The day after they started removing it on those lines too.
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kitz

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Re: G.INP/Retransmission roll-out on ECI cabinets - UPDATE 30/04/2016
« Reply #14 on: May 06, 2016, 08:51:49 AM »

Mini-update

They are aware of the issue with the spike in errors. Apparently they have been aware of this for a (short) while.
The overwhelming issue though is the loss of PPP and intermittent sync problems. 

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Interestingly an observation by me on the people who may be having these problems is with the older Draytek models (2850 and 2750) and also I happen to notice a few people with Fritz!boxes (7490).   I cant seem to find anything definite about the Fritz!box 7490 other than it has a Lantiq VRX chipset.


edited to add Draytek model nos
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