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Author Topic: News from across the pond.  (Read 10382 times)

renluop

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Re: News from across the pond.
« Reply #15 on: March 12, 2016, 01:45:38 PM »

Ah well! If what you want to believe is the only way, why should I stop you?  ::)
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loonylion

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Re: News from across the pond.
« Reply #16 on: March 12, 2016, 01:48:36 PM »

VDSL2 can indeed deliver symmetric service, BT just seems to have an obsession with asymmetric services.
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gt94sss2

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Re: News from across the pond.
« Reply #17 on: March 12, 2016, 02:33:01 PM »

What is a party line? I'm thinking two explanations, 1. the premium rate phone line people used to call for socialising, or 2. its multiple houses sharing the same phone line?

Its No 2.

Quote
It's sad that when it comes to British communications we've always been behind. Let's not forget it took many years before British people could stay on dialup without being charged per minute, when other countries, most notably the US, had free local calls (how come smaller telecoms companies in the US that doesn't have a national network could do this, yet we couldnt?).

The situation in the US was different to the UK in many respects including:

1) basic US line rental charges were higher (and in many cases 'free' calls were a chargeable option - so 'inclusive calls' is a better term);
2) US consumers often paid to receive calls rather than make them; and
3) local call areas in the US were a lot smaller than in the UK.

In respect to your original question - Openreach can and do deliver products such as leased lines which have the same up/downstream - however, the majority of the population/internet usage download a lot more than they upload so widestream retail products are based on that principle.
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gt94sss2

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Re: News from across the pond.
« Reply #18 on: March 12, 2016, 02:54:50 PM »

Nope, still a trivial amount of native FTTP in the UK. It's so little that the UK does't even get listed on the European FTTH rankings:

Note this is the most recent rankings I can find on the ftthcouncil website.

As you might expect from a body whose principle aim is to promote ftth - they have been slightly selective in how they use data.

As WWWombat stated

Quote
First, and most minor, there are currently roughly 250,000 premises with access to FTTP: getting on for 1%. Takeup runs at the same rate as with FTTC, so around 75% of them appear quite happy with their copper and aluminium. But it is still 0.9-1.0% who could stop using copper/aluminium if they chose to.

The FTTH council excludes the UK as it looks at the number of households actually using FTTP - not those that have it available. If all those who had FTTP available used it, the UK would appear on the table.

Back history is irrelevant - all countries have witnessed the birth of the digital age over many decades. All should have planned for FTTH development, the ones that didn't (UK as an example) are stuck sending radio frequencies down aluminium/copper wires for many, many years to come.

I don't know how much aluminium is in the local loop in the UK - I suspect its not much. Copper was being installed a long time before the 1960's and afterwards. Aluminium was only used for a few short years - yes, better if the GPO/Government hadn't done so but it was fit for the purpose it was originally designed to do which was carry voice calls.

Back history is very important - a number of those countries in the list were using very old telecommunications systems until recently - unlike BT they did not upgrade exchanges to digital etc in the 1980's (when BT also wanted to fibre up the UK but was refused permission) - so have leapfrogged several generational changes in technology.

Hybrid copper/fibre systems like G.fast are going to be the dominant method providing high speed internet access around the world for decades..

Another reason why the level of FTTP differs - apart from things like government subsidy/regulation - is that the technology has improved that its now possible to use copper to deliver higher speed services which wasn't an option in the past.
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WWWombat

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Re: News from across the pond.
« Reply #19 on: March 12, 2016, 03:06:30 PM »

Weren't a lot of phones in the 70's and early 80's party lines? 

My memory is the same.

When I first wanted to use a modem, my mum checked (with Hull telephones), and they wanted to change the line from being a party line before I was allowed to use it. That was mid eighties.

In the seventies "our" phone line was really the one for my parents' shop. That wasn't shared.
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Bowdon

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Re: News from across the pond.
« Reply #20 on: March 12, 2016, 03:22:53 PM »


The situation in the US was different to the UK in many respects including:

1) basic US line rental charges were higher (and in many cases 'free' calls were a chargeable option - so 'inclusive calls' is a better term);
2) US consumers often paid to receive calls rather than make them; and
3) local call areas in the US were a lot smaller than in the UK.

I forgot about the whole paying for calls they receive part. I think it is still like that today in some parts of the US.

I have noticed a trend when talking to people from other countries, like the US, Canada and north Europeans, a lot seem to be moving over to using cell/mobile phones for their main form of communication. I wonder if this has any effect or reason why the phone companies push broadband lines more, as the need for voice lines are dropping?
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renluop

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Re: News from across the pond.
« Reply #21 on: March 12, 2016, 04:19:20 PM »

... and as in my link earlier about Latvia, which reported that historically most fixed telephone links were for non-domestic premises. Ordinary folk used mobiles. Given that country's past perhaps domestic connections were rationed, or mobile was safer. Nonetheless, the lack of an existing infrastructure can be an advantage; there's nothing to hold on to and to hinder. Likewise continental Europe, whose railways were almost destroyed. They made a quick jump to electrification, far more speedily than UK.
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renluop

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Re: News from across the pond.
« Reply #22 on: March 12, 2016, 04:32:53 PM »

Weren't a lot of phones in the 70's and early 80's party lines? 

My memory is the same.

When I first wanted to use a modem, my mum checked (with Hull telephones), and they wanted to change the line from being a party line before I was allowed to use it. That was mid eighties.

In the seventies "our" phone line was really the one for my parents' shop. That wasn't shared.

Even by the mid-60s, very few had a phone at all. To phone my future wife I had either to use a private phone box on the premises where my father worked, or the neighbouring  smallholding, and tell operator the call was to be noted for "duration and charge", which IIRC was charged too. Distant exchange was not then STD.

When we married in 67, was the first time I had a phone in our new-build, but we had to go on a list.
How things have changed, and how impatient we all are!
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Dave2150

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Re: News from across the pond.
« Reply #23 on: March 12, 2016, 05:33:42 PM »



I don't know how much aluminium is in the local loop in the UK - I suspect its not much. Copper was being installed a long time before the 1960's and afterwards. Aluminium was only used for a few short years - yes, better if the GPO/Government hadn't done so but it was fit for the purpose it was originally designed to do which was carry voice calls.


I don't think even BT know how much aluminium is in the local loop, there is no data available to show the exact number of lines. All I know is that there are many users on many forums that have been told by their engineer that their line is aluminium, or have seen for themselves when BT's contractors expose a cable bundle and leave it exposed a few days. Sure, people are more likely to post if they are having problems vs not having problems, but it's wrong to say you suspect it's not much, as you (or I) have absolutely no idea how much aluminium there is.

Hybrid copper/fibre systems like G.fast are going to be the dominant method providing high speed internet access around the world for decades..

In the UK, yes. In the rest of the developed countries, no. FTTP is much more popular when you look at other large countries rollout plans. Any technology involving sending RF signals down different lengths of aluminium/copper is going to suffer from many issues. These issues include the length of the cable, whether it's aluminium or copper, whether there are any bad joints, the cable thickness,  local RF noise, electronic devices (from industry), rain getting into ducts/joints, and many more.

Xdsl will always have an 'upto' catch - sure some will get the max speed, while others on a aluminium/thin copper line, next to major industry producing RF noise etc, will struggle to reach the headline speeds.

Another reason why the level of FTTP differs - apart from things like government subsidy/regulation - is that the technology has improved that its now possible to use copper to deliver higher speed services which wasn't an option in the past.

Higher speeds on average, sure. There will still be users on G.fast too far from the remote node to attain sync. There will still be those who suffer from crosstalk. There will still be aluminium lines attenuating the signal. Solar radiation, rain etc will still drop speeds/produce errors.

FTTH is simply the wisest choice for the future. Significantly more reliable, significantly faster, easily upgradable compared to G.fast (by switching the terminating equipment) and not subject to distance, the weather, or RF interference.

There is a reason FTTP is being rolled out to a large % of the population in many countries instead of G.fast.

Of course BT prefer G.Fast - simply because they get to re-use their rusty old local loop, which is a major asset to them.
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Ronski

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Re: News from across the pond.
« Reply #24 on: March 12, 2016, 09:05:36 PM »

In the UK, still to this day, a new housing estate gets wired up with copper telephone cables as it's broadband access method of choice. Only if a developer is wealthy enough to jump through hoops does it stand a chance of getting a FTTH development. Completely pathetic in 2016.

I guess you missed the news the other day then, BT Openreach has announced that any housing development over 250 premises will get FTTP free of charge (if the developers bother to engage with BTor), with joint funding available for smaller scale builds.

http://forum.kitz.co.uk/index.php/topic,17230.0.html

Also what you clearly fail to see is that FTTC, and G.Fast are extending fibre's reach outwards, eventually it will be full FTTP. The huge benefit is that FTTC has given a large proportion of the UK much better speeds in a far shorter time than it would to cover the same proportion with FTTP. Sure FTTP is better, but it's also incredible difficult to install quickly and costs far more.

I think most people can see where things are heading and why, yes FTTP is far superior but when you need to get a whole country up to speed and do it in a cost effective manner then I think the current method is working for the majority, and in time it will get there  :fingers:


Anyway this subject has been completely done to death on these forums so that's enough from me.
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niemand

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Re: News from across the pond.
« Reply #25 on: March 12, 2016, 09:34:22 PM »

All well and good pointing to the statistics in other countries but if the demand is there, the money there to be made, and BT are refraining from rolling out purely because they don't want to write off their copper why hasn't anyone else, besides Virgin Media, built to any scale?

Sky can spend tens of millions a week on Premier League rights, they spend enough in a month on content to deploy FTTP to an entire city, perhaps some ire would be well spent on querying their insistence on using other companies' infrastructure rather than deploying their own?
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niemand

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Re: News from across the pond.
« Reply #26 on: March 12, 2016, 09:45:49 PM »

GPON is the most common FTTP configuration worldwide basis and BT are using this system.
It does not offer symmetrical uploads

So either
They have the next generation of XGPON up and working
or
It is a Point to Point FTTP network like B4RN and Gigaclear in the UK install which can indeed do symmetrical 1000/1000 Mbps speeds.

CenturyLink are using GPON. Same as the Sky/TalkTalk trials with CityFibre in York. GPON delivers 2.4Gb down, 1.2Gb up, so they are just overbooking the upstream more heavily.
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renluop

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Re: News from across the pond.
« Reply #27 on: March 13, 2016, 10:05:36 AM »


I guess you missed the news the other day then, BT Openreach has announced that any housing development over 250 premises will get FTTP free of charge (if the developers bother to engage with BTor), with joint funding available for smaller scale builds
ISTM that the 250 houses is a very large estate,in which few other than the majors would be involved. For the rest how generous is joint funding likely to be...hmm?
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Dave2150

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Re: News from across the pond.
« Reply #28 on: March 13, 2016, 04:29:26 PM »

In the UK, still to this day, a new housing estate gets wired up with copper telephone cables as it's broadband access method of choice. Only if a developer is wealthy enough to jump through hoops does it stand a chance of getting a FTTH development. Completely pathetic in 2016.

I guess you missed the news the other day then, BT Openreach has announced that any housing development over 250 premises will get FTTP free of charge (if the developers bother to engage with BTor), with joint funding available for smaller scale builds.

http://forum.kitz.co.uk/index.php/topic,17230.0.html

Also what you clearly fail to see is that FTTC, and G.Fast are extending fibre's reach outwards, eventually it will be full FTTP. The huge benefit is that FTTC has given a large proportion of the UK much better speeds in a far shorter time than it would to cover the same proportion with FTTP. Sure FTTP is better, but it's also incredible difficult to install quickly and costs far more.

I think most people can see where things are heading and why, yes FTTP is far superior but when you need to get a whole country up to speed and do it in a cost effective manner then I think the current method is working for the majority, and in time it will get there  :fingers:


Anyway this subject has been completely done to death on these forums so that's enough from me.

No, I'm able to read so of course I saw that news article. It's extremely late coming, as other countries have been doing this for years already. It's still worth noting that brand new housing estates, even those built this year, still have copper broadband infrastructure, so it's not exactly 'live' yet - it will probably take a year until it's in full swing.

Then what about the thousands of housing estates that have less than 250 houses, many developers won't pay to meet BT half way, so even in a few years thousands of housing estates will still be built with copper broadband technology.

It should be a law that every new house has full FTTP provided, and that no new copper local loop is allowed to be built.
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S.Stephenson

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Re: News from across the pond.
« Reply #29 on: March 13, 2016, 04:39:08 PM »

Well until providers other than BT retail offer FTTP I don't see it happening, OFCOM would go mental...

I bet if BT was allowed to stop supporting copper infrastructure they would be a hell of a lot more FTTP, problem is people like their £1 adsl.
« Last Edit: March 13, 2016, 06:07:56 PM by S.Stephenson »
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