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Author Topic: Radio Detection Of REIN.  (Read 42714 times)

sevenlayermuddle

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Re: Radio Detection Of REIN.
« Reply #45 on: April 17, 2016, 10:37:47 AM »

Sometimes I wish I'd studied law, it seemed so dull when I was young but as I age it gets more interesting.    Looking at the directive in more detail, I see it has no transitional period - that may indeed mean intakes effect immediately, not sure?  :-\

But also in detail, it includes...
 
Quote
(10)Radio equipment and telecommunications terminal equipment should not be covered by this Directive

That would seem to let the router and DSLAMs off the hook, but for for clarification of what it might mean, I found..

http://www.conformance.co.uk/adirectives/doku.php?id=emc

That page again is where I noticed there is no transitional period, and clarifies that most communications equipment will be excluded, since it is covered instead by the R&TTE Directive, which is summarised here:

http://www.conformance.co.uk/adirectives/doku.php?id=rtte

And that final page confirms that cables and wiring are excluded from R&TTE.  If it is the case that terminal equipment is excluded from the EMC directive, and cables and wiring are excluded from R&TTE, it is hard to see how it will have much effect on broadband provision? 

I'm not a lawyer, I may be misinterpreting. But RFI and REIN must be problems for DSL all over Europe and despite what many of us may think of EU legislators, it seems unlikely to me that they would concoct a directive that massively impacted the business of Europe wide telecoms operators, like BT.
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JGO

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Re: Radio Detection Of REIN.
« Reply #46 on: April 17, 2016, 10:41:25 AM »

I've been REIN faulting for a number of years now, and the way I was told and still appears to be the case, is that we have no powers to remove offending items from EU's premises or 3rd party premises.

It comes down to the fact that there are licensed users of radio equipment who operate under the Wireless Telegraphy Acts 1904 onward, and unlicensed users of the spectrum for ADSL  WiFi etc who take what they get. This doesn't preclude some voluntary cooperation (or the odd spot of illegal coercion !)

 
 
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Barnyard

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Re: Radio Detection Of REIN.
« Reply #47 on: April 17, 2016, 05:53:58 PM »

The most frustrating part of this ongoing saga is that it could all be sorted in no time at all. The reason it isn't is the elusive R.E.I.N team absolutely refuse to give the information they gained to the company whose cameras are causing the interference. At the time of testing BTOR informed the then present landlord of the establishment where the problems lay and his responding words were. "I do not give a sh*t about peoples broadband, my cameras are more important". I wrote to the Chief Exec of the company explaining the situation and he immediately dispatched the Area Manager to sort this out, however a new landlord had been installed and BTOR refused to supply the information. It took me a freedom of information request through my ISP to gain the information however it excluded which cameras were affected and the Brewery simply walked away leaving 17 properties who all pay line rental thus pay the R.E.I.N. team with broadband that is unfit for purpose. The people who live directly opposite the establishment have had no broadband for 4 years. How ridiculous is it that this should still be ongoing? I have asked for another R.E.I.N test on many many occasions only to be told BTOR refuse to do another test. All it would take is them to show up on a certain day with the Area Manager present and say That one there and That one there. Job done, everyone happy.
This is why I am this juncture. Looking at the legal ramifications as a last resort to try and get this solved.
Sorry it sounds like a rant and it is not directed at anyone but BTOR and the incompetent jobsworths they employ.
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Black Sheep

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Re: Radio Detection Of REIN.
« Reply #48 on: April 17, 2016, 06:42:36 PM »

Tell you what, why not get back in touch with them explaining you're happy to pay the hundreds of pounds, to foot the bill for the PTO REIN engineers to attend site ?? I don't think you are grasping the fact that BTOR ARE NOT responsible for 3rd party equipment that is giving off HF noise. It is a gratis service we offer as a goodwill gesture.

We've been to site, we've found the offending items, your ISP will have been told all the relevant information via the subsequent REIN report. it is up to your ISP to then enter into negotiation with the 3rd party ..... NOT OR.

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tickmike

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Re: Radio Detection Of REIN.
« Reply #49 on: July 08, 2016, 05:06:17 PM »

Latest Update.
 Getting back to the subject you will see on my first post I am getting lots of REIN problems, after the first OR technician came he passed it on to the REIN engineer who had sent letters out to some properties  so my ISP told me, I have been getting updates from my ISP but nothing very good and this last Monday told my the case was closed by BT .
This morning I have the very knowledgeable nice REIN engineer come to my house, I told him what my ISP told me the case was closed, it's not closed  :o.
He did some test and confirmed I had lots of noise coming down my line also told me about some suspect home security camera's on two of my neighbors homes.
He told me he will keep coming back to this case when he can to get to the bottom of it.
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Barnyard

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Re: Radio Detection Of REIN.
« Reply #50 on: August 12, 2016, 07:22:09 PM »

Latest Update.
 Getting back to the subject you will see on my first post I am getting lots of REIN problems, after the first OR technician came he passed it on to the REIN engineer who had sent letters out to some properties  so my ISP told me, I have been getting updates from my ISP but nothing very good and this last Monday told my the case was closed by BT .
This morning I have the very knowledgeable nice REIN engineer come to my house, I told him what my ISP told me the case was closed, it's not closed  :o.
He did some test and confirmed I had lots of noise coming down my line also told me about some suspect home security camera's on two of my neighbors homes.
He told me he will keep coming back to this case when he can to get to the bottom of it.

tickmike. A bit of info for you.

The new Radio Equipment Directive (RED)(2014/53/EU)
has been published to bring it into line with the
New Legislative Framework (NLF).
It came into force on the 13th June 2016 and immediately
replaced R+TTE Directive1999/5/EC without a transition period.

"The Directive represents a further liberalisation of the requirements
for telecom products in Europe since it excludes all wired equipment
from its scope and so fixed line equipment will now be regulated under
the LVD (Low Voltage Directive) and EMC directives in the same way as
any other general electrical apparatus."

What does this mean? Basically it means that BT's lines now fall under the scope of 2014/30/EU and are bound by law that they must adhere to. If BT cannot trace and remove the source of interference they HAVE to insulate their equipment (line) so as it is shielded from the interference and can operate as intended. PM me should you require more advice. I'm sure a certain sheep will be along shortly...
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ejs

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Re: Radio Detection Of REIN.
« Reply #51 on: August 12, 2016, 08:03:46 PM »

Do BT's lines really fall under 2014/30/EU?

More definitions from that Directive:
Quote
(1) ‘equipment’ means any apparatus or fixed installation;
(2) ‘apparatus’ means any finished appliance or combination thereof made available on the market as a single functional unit, intended for the end-user and liable to generate electromagnetic disturbance, or the performance of which is liable to be affected by such disturbance;
(3) ‘fixed installation’ means a particular combination of several types of apparatus and, where applicable, other devices, which are assembled, installed and intended to be used permanently at a predefined location;

At best, I suppose they might be classed as a "fixed installation", and Article 19 then says that a lot of the Articles (including Article 6 which refers to the requirements in Annex I) in the Directive are not compulsory for fixed installations. They used twisted pair cabling, that was the good engineering practice used.
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Barnyard

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Re: Radio Detection Of REIN.
« Reply #52 on: August 12, 2016, 08:32:45 PM »

Do BT's lines really fall under 2014/30/EU?

I too was a little unsure whether the directive covered such instances, so in order to gain clarification I contacted my MEP ( Derek Vaughan) and questioned him on the subject. Here is a direct copy of the response minus personal details.

"It seems that in principle, your reading of the legislation is correct. (EMC) Directive 2014/30/EU is aligned with the New Legislative framework and it is noted on the Commissions own website that the Directive takes "the same scope" as the Directive that it replaced. That Directive (2004/108/EC) did not cover fixed lines. However, given the specific citation in 2014/53/EU this Directive does apply to fixed line terminal equipment."

To further seek clarification I have also contacted Greg Clark. Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills and await his response. If he and his department agree that BT's lines now do indeed fall under the remit of 2014/53/EU then we can expect OFCOM and ISP's to pressure BT to act in cases where REIN is proven. Fingers crossed!
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ejs

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Re: Radio Detection Of REIN.
« Reply #53 on: August 12, 2016, 09:04:15 PM »

Have you looked at the Directive itself, specifically what it says about fixed installations (Article 19)? It says most of the things in the Directive are not compulsory for fixed installations.
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Black Sheep

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Re: Radio Detection Of REIN.
« Reply #54 on: August 12, 2016, 09:36:59 PM »

A "Certain sheep" is here  ;) ..... and has had no information whatsoever filtered down to him regarding any changes in REIN faulting/detection.

The one thing 'we' do really well, is keep our people informed of regulatory issues, therefore I am not going to get excited about whatever this latest offering is, just yet.  :)
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Barnyard

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Re: Radio Detection Of REIN.
« Reply #55 on: August 14, 2016, 09:07:10 AM »

Have you looked at the Directive itself, specifically what it says about fixed installations (Article 19)? It says most of the things in the Directive are not compulsory for fixed installations.
I have read it several times over and this is why I seek clarification. If the directive itself does not cover fixed installations then there is absolutely no legislation whatsoever that does, that in itself would be dangerous and not what the directives intended in their scope. Remember this was written before the new RED directive was passed into law. Also the directives set the bare minimum legal requirement, member states can add their own additional standards but cannot dilute or remove any part or whole from the directive itself. The RED directive was specifically designed to place telecommunications equipment into the control of the EMC 2014/30/EU in order to remove ambiguity and set clear standards that operators must follow.
Let's hope the powers in Whitehall agree without delay and do away with BT excuses of not being able to act on third party equipment.
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ejs

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Re: Radio Detection Of REIN.
« Reply #56 on: August 14, 2016, 09:34:30 AM »

I think the Directive is primarily intended for electrical devices you can buy in shops that must have that CE mark on them. I'm not sure it was really intended to apply to Openreach's telephone cabling.

Quote
Article 19
Fixed installations

1. Apparatus which has been made available on the market and which may be incorporated into a fixed installation shall be subject to all relevant provisions for apparatus set out in this Directive.

However, the requirements of Articles 6 to 12 and Articles 14 to 18 shall not be compulsory in the case of apparatus which is intended for incorporation into a particular fixed installation and is otherwise not made available on the market.

Quote
2. Where there are indications of non-compliance of the fixed installation, in particular, where there are complaints about disturbances being generated by the installation, the competent authorities of the Member State concerned may request evidence of compliance of the fixed installation, and, when appropriate, initiate an evaluation.
Where non-compliance is established, the competent authorities shall impose appropriate measures to bring the fixed installation into compliance with the essential requirements set out in Annex I.

I suppose the fixed installation this would refer to would be the security cameras, not BT's cables. I don't think it would require BT to shield their cables or anything like that, but it might enable something to be done about the source of the interference.
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aesmith

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Re: Radio Detection Of REIN.
« Reply #57 on: August 15, 2016, 12:09:29 PM »

Wouldn't it be more likely that if BT lines were covered, wouldn't it be more to do with policing radiation from the lines?
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burakkucat

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Re: Radio Detection Of REIN.
« Reply #58 on: August 15, 2016, 03:24:24 PM »

Wouldn't it be more likely that if BT lines were covered, wouldn't it be more to do with policing radiation from the lines?

Indeed, that is a good point.

Consider this:

All xDSL circuits have two transceivers, one at each end of the circuit, linked together with a metallic pathway. That metallic pathway must be viewed as a radio frequency transmission line. xDSL transceivers are not licensed to radiate RF signals into free space, i.e. act as RF broadcast transmitters.

The typical logic used for "arguing the case" when there is interference to an xDSL circuit is fundamentally wrong. The provision of an xDSL based broadband service uses a technology that has to be accepted as prone to interference and no diktats, directives, humbug or legislation can change the fundamental physical laws of the Universe.
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JSHarris

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Re: Radio Detection Of REIN.
« Reply #59 on: November 07, 2016, 05:53:03 PM »

Not directly related to REIN, as such, but my findings may shed some light on what's going on with unlawful RF emitters.

We've just completed building a new low energy house, which happens to be down at the bottom of a valley, so is a bit of a radio blackspot.  This means that any interference at all tends to be noticeable, on FM and AM radios.  What we did find out, very early on, was that the majority of LED lighting power supplies were simply appalling at emitting broad band RFI.  All the ones we purchased were CE marked, meaning they should have been tested for RF emissions (I used to be Head of Type Approval for all UK Maritime Radio, Radar and Navigation Equipment, and was a Notified Body under the EMC and Low Voltage Directive, with test labs etc).

I have a software defined radio (a cheap Chinese unit) that goes from 100KHz to 1.7GHz and with some open source software and a decent sniffer antenna it makes tracking RFI sources easy.  What that showed me was that all of the LED power supplies we'd bought, from UK lighting suppliers, were falsely CE marked.  All were made in China, and when I opened a few up to look inside found that none had even any basic EMI suppression or screening.

Places like Ebay and Amazon are awash with even worse bits of kit like this.  In essence, the majority of devices with a switched mode power supply that I looked at, that came from the Far East, were illegal in terms of EMC compliance.

No one seems to be prepared to do anything about this, and TBH, the only reason I got interested in trying to sort it out was because of our poor radio reception and the interference whenever a light was turned on.  My fix was to find some properly designed and manufactured power supplies, that did genuinely comply with the EMC Directive and which therefore didn't emit loads of broadband interference.

I still have the software defined radio, and can say that it's a very useful tool, when used with a simple spectrum analyser programme, for tracking down sources of interference.  If people suspect REIN then it might be worth looking at some DIY testing with something relatively cheap like this in order to track down the source.

I very strongly suspect that it's a problem that is going to get a great deal worse as the number of cheap, non-compliant and falsely marked electronic devices increase.  I spoke to Trading Standards and to the suppliers of the illegally marked items, but frankly had very little joy.  One well-known DIY supplier did remove the offending LED lights from their range, and were honest enough to tell me that they relied on their supply chain to check what they were stocking, and that if something had a CE label on then they assumed that it was compliant with the EMC and LV Directives.  As an aside, I can add that there are a lot of bits of kit that are CE marked and are electrically dangerous, as they don't comply with the LV Directive either.

I'm not sure if this helps, or not, but the figures quoted earlier for the percentage of faults that were found to be genuine REIN does not surprise me at all, neither do the items of equipment mentioned.  It's a safe bet that anything unbranded with a switched mode power supply in it is going to be probable source of high amplitude RFI, and no one seems to really care about it too much.

If there's anything I can help with on the RFI/EMC side, or the sort of kit that's around to do rough and ready checks of the spectrum around lines, then I'm happy to help.  The problem is getting the problem fixed!  As mentioned earlier, no one has any real powers to confiscate illegally marked bits of electrical equipment that are radiating a lot of RFI, it seems.

Jeremy

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