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Author Topic: Radio Detection Of REIN.  (Read 20288 times)

aesmith

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Re: Radio Detection Of REIN.
« Reply #15 on: February 21, 2016, 04:00:14 PM »

.... but this is an example of how na´ve Joe Public can be when it comes down to how Openreach operate behind the scenes.

That's the whole point in my opinion, how is Joe Public supposed to know about what goes on "behind the scenes".  All we can go on is what we're told by our ISP and by OR guys dispatched on our particular call(s).  And in my case all I saw was inability or unwillingness to carry out any further testing once they'd decided it was REIN, and that diagnosis seemed to be based on the the shakiest of grounds.
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Black Sheep

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Re: Radio Detection Of REIN.
« Reply #16 on: February 21, 2016, 06:27:26 PM »

.... but this is an example of how na´ve Joe Public can be when it comes down to how Openreach operate behind the scenes.

That's the whole point in my opinion, how is Joe Public supposed to know about what goes on "behind the scenes".    All we can go on is what we're told by our ISP and by OR guys dispatched on our particular call(s).  And in my case all I saw was inability or unwillingness to carry out any further testing once they'd decided it was REIN, and that diagnosis seemed to be based on the the shakiest of grounds.

That's the thing, you're not. You have to accept what your ISP tells you as things stand at the minute. Not Openreach's fault, Ofcom dictated it would be this way.

However it is, now or in the future ................. OR and the ISP's don't use REIN as '"sometimes used by both ISP and OR as a convenience to avoid having to track down the real fault.". Which was the point I was hoping to make.

Admin - fixed bb tags.
« Last Edit: February 21, 2016, 07:50:10 PM by kitz »
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licquorice

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Re: Radio Detection Of REIN.
« Reply #17 on: February 21, 2016, 07:17:33 PM »

What would be interesting to know is how many faults are actually PROVED to be caused by REIN. I rather suspect it is a very low proportion of the number of investigations.
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Black Sheep

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Re: Radio Detection Of REIN.
« Reply #18 on: February 21, 2016, 07:22:52 PM »

What would be interesting to know is how many faults are actually PROVED to be caused by REIN. I rather suspect it is a very low proportion of the number of investigations.

I can't give actualities, but based on my own personal experience I'd say approx. 60-70% are true to REIN. This has definitely improved from the 20-30% of cases when I first started REIN faulting. I think both OR and the ISP's started to take it seriously around that time ??
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licquorice

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Re: Radio Detection Of REIN.
« Reply #19 on: February 21, 2016, 07:27:56 PM »

Now that is interesting, what is the most common cause?
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Black Sheep

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Re: Radio Detection Of REIN.
« Reply #20 on: February 21, 2016, 07:37:18 PM »

Now that is interesting, what is the most common cause?

Again, in my own experience ....... set-top boxes. Where I live there are strong Asian/Polish communities, and they have their own 'Chipped' boxes that seem to be a major problem. Don't get me wrong, there's the 'Chipped' SKY boxes as well that emanate REIN due to cheap electronics utilised.

I'd say by far and away, these account for 70-80% of the cases I've attended. The other's have included cheap LED lighting, TV's and a rather tricky one that turned out to be a small fish-tank's flu-tube light, that was only turned on from time-to-time. If you pardon the pun ........ one gets a buzz (Audible REIN noise on 612kHz), when the source is finally found !!  :)
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aesmith

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Re: Radio Detection Of REIN.
« Reply #21 on: February 21, 2016, 07:51:22 PM »

Those all sound like the sources were quite close to the line or to the modem, was that the case?  Have you ever had a case where the source was hundreds of yards from the line?
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Black Sheep

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Re: Radio Detection Of REIN.
« Reply #22 on: February 21, 2016, 08:28:55 PM »

Those all sound like the sources were quite close to the line or to the modem, was that the case?  Have you ever had a case where the source was hundreds of yards from the line?

Absolutely yes.

It took 3 days to locate the source of the 'Noise', and it was affecting EU's up to approx. 1/2 mile away !! The 'noise' had tracked back to the Cab and induced into other D-side cables. I have only ever known this happen this one time.

The offending item turned out to be a decades old stand-alone telephone answering machine. Our area had recently been subject to a massive lightning storm, and it was this unit that had been the subject of the nearby-strike.
The problem we had was, it didn't matter where you drove round with the radio tuned to 612kHz .... the same buzzing-noise pitch could be heard within this enormous 1/2 mile radius !! Generally, we can narrow the area down to a block of houses, etc .....

With the absence of 'Directional Antennaes' that the Precision Test Officers have to hand, we (me and another engineer) had to resort to climbing DP's and using the 444b tester to try and determine where the signal was at its strongest. 3 days later we found the source in this poor, unassuming, elderly gentlemans house. He was so apologetic about it, no matter how many times we told him it was in no way his fault. What a lovely man, compared to todays 'So what' yoof !!  :no:

A great learning curve for me, but this really was a one-off from what I've been involved in, before and after this particular case.  :)
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NewtronStar

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Re: Radio Detection Of REIN.
« Reply #23 on: February 21, 2016, 08:35:17 PM »

small fish-tank's flu-tube light,

I found this was the cause in my friends house but it was using leds on the tank and because they also use these power-line adapters the sync was close to 13 Mbps then removed fish tank lights the sync increased to 26 Mbps then removed the power line adapters and used Cat5 cable the sync increased to 75 Mbps that's is what REIN does on the EU's line  :o
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Black Sheep

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Re: Radio Detection Of REIN.
« Reply #24 on: February 21, 2016, 08:41:09 PM »

Wow !! that is a helluva increase !!

TBH, it's very rare to receive a VDSL REIN case, probably due to REIN mainly affecting the lower frequencies that provide ADSL service.

In effect, the ADSL user notices the speed drop and sometime inability to attain synch through REIN-swamping noise, whereas due to the large amount of bandwidth left open to VDSL users, they just crack on oblivious to it all. Only someone who is 'switched on' and using stat-based monitoring would probably notice an issue on VDSL services ??

 
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WWWombat

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Re: Radio Detection Of REIN.
« Reply #25 on: February 22, 2016, 10:35:20 AM »

A couple of interesting cases there, guys. I can see why I prefer digital  :'(
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Ragnarok

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Re: Radio Detection Of REIN.
« Reply #26 on: March 03, 2016, 12:55:35 AM »

Now that is interesting, what is the most common cause?

Again, in my own experience ....... set-top boxes. Where I live there are strong Asian/Polish communities, and they have their own 'Chipped' boxes that seem to be a major problem. Don't get me wrong, there's the 'Chipped' SKY boxes as well that emanate REIN due to cheap electronics utilised.

I'd say by far and away, these account for 70-80% of the cases I've attended. The other's have included cheap LED lighting, TV's and a rather tricky one that turned out to be a small fish-tank's flu-tube light, that was only turned on from time-to-time. If you pardon the pun ........ one gets a buzz (Audible REIN noise on 612kHz), when the source is finally found !!  :)

It ain't the chipped boxes per say ( I've fixed enough with both internal and external PSU's so cheep i'm amazed they actually work properly with the floating earth and ripple), I've personally narrowed it down even further, It's the cheap chinese power supplies and it stretches to a lot modern electronics.

That said, when I investigated my own rein issue I tracked it down to my next door neighbor, and his TV, coupled to a sky HD box via HDMI cable, then transmitting it up the phone line from the boxes built in modem. I offered to fix the offending device and re-cap the PSU before it inevitably blows , he refused. I said don't ask me to fix it when it blows, it blew the rein was gone, he asked me to fix the TV and I said NO, you missed the boat mate.

Also your spot on about rein affecting ADSL more than VDSL, I suspect it less about frequency( I've seen powerline ethernet cause rein at higher VDSL frequencies).

I had the rein before and after I switched to VDSL however there are a few reasons why VDSL is less prone.

 the BT Openreach VDSL faceplate filters which I fitted to try to help the ADSL rein made quite a difference even to ADSL2+, I gained 3mbps in my case with the openreach VDSL faceplate (mk1 at the time) over known good microfilters. With openreach VDSL faceplates and managed installs being standard until recently with VDSL, where as most ADSL self installs with connections use Microfilters, i Think this has been a big factor too.

Also because of the extra distance involved with ADSL, by the time the signal gets to your home the signal is far weaker, attenuated and prone to being affected by noise, than the VDSL signal which is generated alot closer to home than the exchange in most cases. This was clear and obvious when I switched to FTTC in the DSL stats, even with the rein at the I had an attainable rate of 94mbps so it wasn't affecting speeds at the time, even in the rein region the SNR on VDSL is vastly better, it would just load up the bit's elsewhere anyway.

« Last Edit: March 03, 2016, 01:04:40 AM by Ragnarok »
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Black Sheep

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Re: Radio Detection Of REIN.
« Reply #27 on: March 03, 2016, 09:08:06 AM »

Nice bit of info there Rag ...... thank you.

Obviously, where Openreach are concerned, we aren't faulting down to component level ................ I doubt I could even if I wanted to  :lol:. We simply source the item, explain the problems it causes, and then fill a report out that goes back to the ISP via our REIN team.
I absolutely concur about the weakened ADSL signal state etc, but of the many REIN case I've attended now, there's very, very few that have seen the interference go above 3.5Mhz on the Spectrum Analyser in my experience.  :)

Our very own Chief Engineers office also replied to my correspondence when I first began REIN faulting asking for details on fault frequencies, they mentioned that even with VDSL affected circuits, it would be as rare as Unicorn poo to have the SA sweep set above 7.5Mhz and see service affecting noise. Like I say, just my experience and there's always something that goes against the grain.
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tickmike

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Re: Radio Detection Of REIN.
« Reply #28 on: March 03, 2016, 11:21:14 AM »

My case is a little more complex.
I had a very nice BT OR engineer come last week spent 5hrs looking into my problems which has been going on for weeks / months as some of you will remember from some of my other posts.

Something (maybe street lighting ) is affecting the downstream SNR Margin 24/7 364 days a year (note Not 365 as there was one day it did not happen over last xmas new year, but I can not find what day it was).

He said my 4.3kl 'E' side was very good but getting some cross talk on 'D' side, he did a pair swap but only made it a bit better for noise.
It had no effect on the main problem with the changes in ambient light effecting my line.
The drop out on the first graph is either the RAIN team or my isp doing anther copper line test of many.
It's under the RAIN team this week as an urgent investigation.

Should get feed back from isp tomorrow. 
 
Edit .. Note on the second graph about 9am when we had had heavy rain and it went very dark  :o

Second edit (My brain  :doh: )  Some of the tests when it was getting dark (about 17.15hrs last week) and the change was taking place with the engineer looking on , I turned all power off and pulled the service fuse to prove it was nothing in my house .
« Last Edit: March 03, 2016, 11:31:48 AM by tickmike »
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aesmith

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Re: Radio Detection Of REIN.
« Reply #29 on: March 03, 2016, 07:02:08 PM »

Those all sound like the sources were quite close to the line or to the modem, was that the case?  Have you ever had a case where the source was hundreds of yards from the line?

Absolutely yes. ... The offending item turned out to be a decades old stand-alone telephone answering machine.  ...
Thanks.  But presumably that answering machine was close to at least one phone line, if not actually connected to it.  What I meant to ask was whether you'd come across cases where the source was hundreds of yards from any phone phone line.
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