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Author Topic: Radio Detection Of REIN.  (Read 18615 times)

tickmike

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Radio Detection Of REIN.
« on: February 19, 2016, 02:16:56 PM »

Radio Detection Of REIN.   (Repetitive Electrical Impulse Noise).

Yesterday I did a survey of interference  following the cable route, as previously confirmed by an Openreach technician all the way from my house to the exchange 4.5kl away.

Using a medium wave radio set to 612kHz, I had only gone 350 Mts and picked up some quite strong signal and the next, a very, very large signal  was just around the corner from the exchange some 4.2kl away.

My isp have been trying different things to improve my line but have said they will arrange an Openreach technician to start doing tests then hand it over to the REIN investigators. :hmm:

Edit.. I also noted a radio transmitter mast about 3.9 kl away next to the cable route, trying to find out what it is used for (it used to be a lighting company ) Could be a mobile phone booster station.

Edit.. It Is.
« Last Edit: July 08, 2016, 04:54:45 PM by burakkucat »
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I have a set of 8 fixed IP's From my Eclipse isp.
BT ADSL2 line>HG612 set as a Modem, Bridge, WAN not Bound to LAN1 or 2 >Smoothwall (Hardware Firewall and routing) > Ethernet LAN, DMZ,WiFI LAN and Spare LAN .
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aesmith

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Re: Radio Detection Of REIN.
« Reply #1 on: February 19, 2016, 03:31:29 PM »

Out of interest do you know why people are advised to check at that particular single frequency?   For example looking at my own line there doesn't seem to be a dip at that frequency, nor any bit swapping.   On the other hand at other frequencies there are quite marked "holes" in the bit loading.
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tickmike

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Re: Radio Detection Of REIN.
« Reply #2 on: February 19, 2016, 03:37:44 PM »

I think it's a quite part of the band although I did have to move to 615kHz as a french station came up during my tests.
« Last Edit: February 19, 2016, 08:18:52 PM by tickmike »
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I RECOMMEND TRYING / USING PCLinuxOS (www.pclinuxos.com) .
I have a set of 8 fixed IP's From my Eclipse isp.
BT ADSL2 line>HG612 set as a Modem, Bridge, WAN not Bound to LAN1 or 2 >Smoothwall (Hardware Firewall and routing) > Ethernet LAN, DMZ,WiFI LAN and Spare LAN .
DSLstats LAN2  linked Ethernet

roseway

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Re: Radio Detection Of REIN.
« Reply #3 on: February 19, 2016, 03:43:19 PM »

Quote
Out of interest do you know why people are advised to check at that particular single frequency?

Possibly because that's the frequency used by the test gear which Openreach use. Another possible reason is that there aren't any UK medium wave radio stations operating near that frequency. REIN tends to be wideband in nature, so the exact frequency doesn't matter much.

Narrow dips in the bitloading aren't likely to be REIN. They are often caused by strong MW radio stations, and you can check yours here: http://www.mediumwaveradio.com/uk.php
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tickmike

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« Last Edit: February 19, 2016, 05:42:23 PM by tickmike »
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I RECOMMEND TRYING / USING PCLinuxOS (www.pclinuxos.com) .
I have a set of 8 fixed IP's From my Eclipse isp.
BT ADSL2 line>HG612 set as a Modem, Bridge, WAN not Bound to LAN1 or 2 >Smoothwall (Hardware Firewall and routing) > Ethernet LAN, DMZ,WiFI LAN and Spare LAN .
DSLstats LAN2  linked Ethernet

Black Sheep

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Re: Radio Detection Of REIN.
« Reply #5 on: February 19, 2016, 06:49:36 PM »

Out of interest do you know why people are advised to check at that particular single frequency?   For example looking at my own line there doesn't seem to be a dip at that frequency, nor any bit swapping.   On the other hand at other frequencies there are quite marked "holes" in the bit loading.

As pointed out, OR REIN engineers are guided towards using 612kHz (MW) because there generally isn't anything near it, radio station-wise. However, it's only a guide and as another poster commented, that annoying Frenchy station can sometimes be heard so 'tweaking' up or down the frequency scale is acceptable.
Also you could use LW (as well as MW) to locate REIN ....... the advice is to tune in as low down the LW scale as possible. I've never had cause to use LW, so cannot comment on its success rate.

C&P ............ 'A cheap AM radio capable of receiving at least MW band is ideal.  Tune it into a station towards the bottom end of the frequency scale that does not pick up a station (i.e. just a bit of background hiss), e.g. ~612kHz.   
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NewtronStar

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Re: Radio Detection Of REIN.
« Reply #6 on: February 20, 2016, 09:23:16 PM »

REIN is very difficult to pinpoint using 612Khz as most items with mains switching and transformers around the house give out that buzzing noise when the Radio is close to 1 -2 meter of the source all REIN is caused by the the Mains 240v AC

Radio Frequency Interference is easier to pinpoint as it shows up well using graphs tones bitloading you will see a chunk of tones missing in the band of RFI
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konrado5

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Re: Radio Detection Of REIN.
« Reply #7 on: February 20, 2016, 10:17:24 PM »

Where from the REIN get into modem? From mains or rather wireless? Perhaps power strip with EMI/RFI filter would be helpful.
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NewtronStar

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Re: Radio Detection Of REIN.
« Reply #8 on: February 20, 2016, 10:41:48 PM »

Where from the REIN get into modem? From mains or rather wireless? Perhaps power strip with EMI/RFI filter would be helpful.

It would be radiated into the modem just like radio waves the only difference is it's lower down the spectrum at 50hz but these frequency's bleed over into higher frequency's the best way I can  describe this it's called resonance.
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konrado5

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Re: Radio Detection Of REIN.
« Reply #9 on: February 20, 2016, 11:09:03 PM »

NewtronStar: I don't understand. Are power strips with EMI/RFI filter helpful?
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NewtronStar

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Re: Radio Detection Of REIN.
« Reply #10 on: February 21, 2016, 12:57:50 AM »

NewtronStar: I don't understand. Are power strips with EMI/RFI filter helpful?

Surge protection is helpful to protect against mains spikes which can cause damage on electronic components that are connected to that power strip and always use one, the other with RFI filters I don't have much faith in them because my Radio Frequency Interference is coming in on the pairs not from the mains 240v AC
« Last Edit: February 21, 2016, 01:01:15 AM by NewtronStar »
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aesmith

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Re: Radio Detection Of REIN.
« Reply #11 on: February 21, 2016, 09:22:42 AM »

REIN is very difficult to pinpoint using 612Khz as most items with mains switching and transformers around the house give out that buzzing noise when the Radio is close to 1 -2 meter of the source all REIN is caused by the the Mains 240v AC

That's what I found.  According to my radio just about everything in the house seemed to radiate something at that frequency, for example the fluorescent lights and LEDs in the garage were just about deafening at close range.  What doesn't seem to be clear is how to link that noise with whether it is or is not affecting the DSL other than by switching each device off and watching error rates and SNR (and of course you could do that anyway without the prior AM radio checks).

It's struck me from my single experience with REIN investigation is that it's sometimes used by both ISP and OR as a convenience to avoid having to track down the real fault.
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Black Sheep

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Re: Radio Detection Of REIN.
« Reply #12 on: February 21, 2016, 09:56:01 AM »

REIN is very difficult to pinpoint using 612Khz as most items with mains switching and transformers around the house give out that buzzing noise when the Radio is close to 1 -2 meter of the source all REIN is caused by the the Mains 240v AC

That's what I found.  According to my radio just about everything in the house seemed to radiate something at that frequency, for example the fluorescent lights and LEDs in the garage were just about deafening at close range.  What doesn't seem to be clear is how to link that noise with whether it is or is not affecting the DSL other than by switching each device off and watching error rates and SNR (and of course you could do that anyway without the prior AM radio checks).

It's struck me from my single experience with REIN investigation is that it's sometimes used by both ISP and OR as a convenience to avoid having to track down the real fault.

Your first paragraph is spot-on. Your second couldn't be further from the truth.

Because REIN faulting is effectively a totally free service that Openreach very kindly offer, there has to be a very good reason to have a case raised. For information purposes, the ISP can't have a case raised, only the OR Engineer, and as mooted the pro-forma to this being done is pretty involved.

On both ADSL and VDSL, the engineer has to change the E-side, D-side and carry out a 'Lift & Shift'. As well as ensuring the internal wiring is up to par and a SSFP installed. Then, he/she has to ring the Openreach Diagnostic Centre of Excellence (if it is a BT Classic circuit) to speak with the REIN Team, who will trawl through historical data pretty much like the guys on MDWS do here, to try and determine if REIN is the cause.
The engineer is also sometimes expected to drive around the immediate vicinity with his van radio on 612kHz for the REIN team to listen to.

If it is a LLU circuit, the engineer has to speak with the ISP's Tier 2 service who do the same as OR's DCoE, and they then have to e-mail a data-pack to the REIN Team, who go over it themselves to decide whether a REIN Case is worthy of raising ??

This is not aimed at you aesmith in any way, shape or form. Please don't take it as such ............. but this is an example of how nave Joe Public can be when it comes down to how Openreach operate behind the scenes.  :) :)


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Weaver

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Re: Radio Detection Of REIN.
« Reply #13 on: February 21, 2016, 10:46:07 AM »

> the engineer has to change the E-side, D-side and carry out a 'Lift & Shift'.

BlackSheep, I don't really understand what's involved here, when choosing a new pair are you looking for one that measures rather better than the original?

> this is an example of how nave Joe Public can be when it comes down to how Openreach operate behind the scenes.

Quite true. It would do BT some good in PR terms if the public were to see more of a glimpse into just how much is involved.
« Last Edit: February 21, 2016, 01:55:16 PM by Weaver »
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Black Sheep

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Re: Radio Detection Of REIN.
« Reply #14 on: February 21, 2016, 11:30:27 AM »

> the engineer has to change the E-side, D-side and carry out a 'Lift & Shift'.

BlackSheep, I don't really understand what's involved here, when choosing a new pair are you looking for one that measures rather better than the original?

> this is an example of how nave Joe Public can be when it comes down to how Openreach operate behind the scenes.

Quite true. It would do BT some good in PR terms if the public were to see more of a glimpse into just how much is involved.

If possible, yes.

The tick-sheet is there as a kind of 'Idiots guide' for engineers. As with all things BT, they have to cover all instances and all levels of aptitude/ability (ie: new starters).

If the PQT passes with flying colours, and there is no sign of erroring at the PCP, then I wouldn't personally perform an E-side change for obvious reasons. Same as on the D-side. But, those are the guidelines and the REIN team are very strict with them, I can't confirm it but I suspect they are targeted at keeping un-paid REIN work to a minimum and to only raise a case if deemed totally necessary ??

[Moderator edited to fix a broken bbc tag.]
« Last Edit: February 21, 2016, 05:08:13 PM by burakkucat »
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