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Author Topic: Beefy UPS  (Read 18444 times)

Weaver

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Re: Beefy UPS
« Reply #45 on: February 20, 2016, 02:46:56 AM »

So I would need an efficient inverter (covered earlier I think, in a different subsection of the thread). As I have kit that requires AC, and has no removable DC brick. So inventing the UPS again, I'm afraid.
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guest

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Re: Beefy UPS
« Reply #46 on: February 20, 2016, 11:41:51 AM »

I find it difficult to locate C (coulombs) or J. I want to know how much energy or charge is in the store if I am going to get a rundown time. The manufacturers are very keen in advertising VA or W, not surprisingly because it determines how much kit you can plug in to the device, provided it doesn't die from energy starvation before the kit has had enough time to shut down cleanly, the whole point.

Batteries are always measured in ampere hour capacity. Never seen one measured in joules as joules are rarely used as a unit of measure in electrical design. The reason is that battery capacity varies as a function of discharge current (Peukert's law if you're interested) and temperature.

Working out capacity in joules (if you insist on doing so) is simple enough.

One amp at 1 V for one hour equals 3600 joules.

Lets take the UPS I have as an example :

The batteries are 12V and are rated at 18AH so that's 12V at 1A for 18 hours, so 12 x 18 = 216 then multiply by 3600 and you get a capacity of 777600J. Edit - there's two of them in series so bear that in mind in the example - ie there's double the capacity (and voltage) one battery has but the same peak current.

However that's a pretty useless measure in electrical terms.

In reality all you need to know is the current drawn by the load and the capacity of the batteries in ampere hours. You simply divide the capacity by the load and that gives you the time to completely deplete the battery.

However as its lead-acid then you're looking at probably 20% voltage drop between 100% charged (12V) and 30% charged (10V) so you've only got 70% usable capacity in all likelihood*. Now you also have to factor in the efficiency of the inverter/transformer etc. which we'll assume isn't junk so lets call that 85%.

So your 18AH battery becomes : 18 x 0.7 x 0.85 = 10.71 "usable" AH. Going back to your joules that'd mean a usable capacity (for this application) of 12 x 10.71 x 3600 = 462,672J

So I guess if you measure the apparent power drawn by your load, multiply it by 3600 that'd give you joules, then you could divide the usable battery power in joules to give you the total runtime in seconds. However as said before, battery capacity varies as a function of discharge current so it won't be exact.

In terms of your request for a UPS to supply 300W (I'm assuming at least two hours runtime) for under £500 - very doubtful. Don't bother with second-hand as you've no idea how/how long its been used.

tl;dr you need to get an accurate figure for power consumption. If its more than 100W then things are likely to become expensive given the length of runtime you require. Edit - forgot, I tested mine last night and with a load of 150W I get 110 minutes on a deep discharge calibration. That's with two year old batteries.

*this is entirely dependent on how much money you spend on batteries, how old they are and how many times they have been discharged. Basically if you buy cheap then you're not getting deep cycle batteries (they have thicker lead plates amongst other things) and you may only have 50% usable capacity. "Leisure batteries" are unsuitable for UPS by the way as are automotive batteries of any sort.
« Last Edit: February 20, 2016, 03:15:32 PM by rizla »
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sevenlayermuddle

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Re: Beefy UPS
« Reply #47 on: February 20, 2016, 11:59:15 AM »

I wonder, as an alternative to a beefier power supply, it might be possible to replace the equipment with less hungry equivalents, that would allow the existing UPS to last longer?

A while ago I wanted a new ethernet switch.  I chose a TP-Link that by chance claimed improved energy efficiency, though I didn't really believe it.  But when tested using a watt-meter, it really was quite a big 'win'.  It's a 'proper' rack mount switch, too.  Sorry I don't have the figure to hand but I think I waffled on about it already in some other thread.

ISTR that the Billion Modem/Router was also significantly better than the Netgears that preceded it.  Can't promise that though, or put numbers on it.

It would all depend on what current equipment Weaver is using, and how much it could be improved by carefully chosen replacements, but the budget of £500 might cover a fair bit of new kit.   Downside would be of course, whilst your electric bill would go down, your house would be colder and/or your CH bill would go up to cover the deficit. Except in summer, when it would actually save you money.  Assuming you actually get summers on Skye, that is? 
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Re: Beefy UPS
« Reply #48 on: February 20, 2016, 01:45:44 PM »

Edit - actually looking at the runtime chart for the UPS linked below shows it would run for 4hrs48mins @ 100W and 2hrs38mins @ 200W. If the average idle power draw was in fact 50W then you could expect 7hrs37mins.

I reckon that to have a runtime of 5 hours for a peak load of 200W it'd take one of these to be sure that you'd still get 5 hours in a couple of years time* :

http://www.apc.com/shop/gb/en/products/APC-Smart-UPS-3000VA-LCD-230V/P-SMT3000I

Fairly sure you can source them for about a grand or so inc VAT but haven't looked lately. Obviously way more than Weaver's budget.

Its the HP managed switch plus the WAP that are probably going to cause issues. Can't remember what a Firebrick pulls but its unlikely to be excessive given it only has to deal with 8Mbps on the WAN.

Until he measures the power consumption when its all running flat-out and idle then its all guesswork anyway :)

*given the number of powercuts per year in NW Scotland then I'd budget on new batteries every 3 years (decent ones)
« Last Edit: February 20, 2016, 01:59:31 PM by rizla »
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sevenlayermuddle

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Re: Beefy UPS
« Reply #49 on: February 20, 2016, 06:57:44 PM »

It's not obvious to me why a WAP should be particularly power hungry.

They're restricted to tx power of a fraction of a watt are they not, under European law or something?   Even allowing for inefficiencies, surely a watt or two at the mains socket should suffice?

What am I missing?
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tbailey2

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Re: Beefy UPS
« Reply #50 on: February 20, 2016, 07:10:06 PM »

Fairly sure you can source them for about a grand or so inc VAT but haven't looked lately. Obviously way more than Weaver's budget.

A quick look shows there are a couple on ebay well below that, one new at £650 and another used at £600, might be more... I did look at getting one but would have to get the floor joists reinforced so stayed with a 1500....
« Last Edit: February 20, 2016, 07:18:38 PM by tbailey2 »
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Tony
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guest

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Re: Beefy UPS
« Reply #51 on: February 20, 2016, 08:13:31 PM »

It's not obvious to me why a WAP should be particularly power hungry.

They're restricted to tx power of a fraction of a watt are they not, under European law or something?   Even allowing for inefficiencies, surely a watt or two at the mains socket should suffice?

What am I missing?

What you're missing is that his is dual-band and operating at 802.11n and 802.11ac speeds over two bands concurrently requires a non-trivial amount of signal processing. In addition the WAP doesn't sit there in "sleep" mode when nothing much is going on unlike a wireless client so its a constant drain even when there's bugger all going on network-wise.

I'd budget somewhere between 20-40W for the WAP but its all speculation really, best to measure it.
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Re: Beefy UPS
« Reply #52 on: February 20, 2016, 08:16:49 PM »

Fairly sure you can source them for about a grand or so inc VAT but haven't looked lately. Obviously way more than Weaver's budget.

A quick look shows there are a couple on ebay well below that, one new at £650 and another used at £600, might be more... I did look at getting one but would have to get the floor joists reinforced so stayed with a 1500....

Aye the shipping is going to cost as its 52.5kg so H&S-wise its a two-man lift.

Edit - no its not, shipping weight is nearly 64kg which is over the two-man lift limit (60kg IIRC). Big batteries :D
« Last Edit: February 20, 2016, 08:21:20 PM by rizla »
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Weaver

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Re: Beefy UPS
« Reply #53 on: February 21, 2016, 01:32:52 AM »

I'd like to thank Rizla for his generous post and extremely help Paul (cut-out-'n-keep) guide to battery calculations. There as a lot I didn't know there, the info with figures about efficiency particularly comes to mind.

I need to make some actual measurements, discuss with my FD how long a runtime we want and how much cash we want to spend.

I do know that the firebrick FB 2x00 is especially designed to be low-powered. Uses an ARM I think.
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sevenlayermuddle

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Re: Beefy UPS
« Reply #54 on: February 21, 2016, 08:41:36 AM »

Edit - no its not, shipping weight is nearly 64kg which is over the two-man lift limit (60kg IIRC). Big batteries :D

Even apart from Weaver's mobility issues, my own individual limit is strictly 25kg, wimp that I am.  I know that because it's the weight of the bags of salt for my water softener.   I can just about manage, but wouldn't be the first time I'd been visiting my Osteopath a few days later to have my back sorted.    :D

Apols, off topic, I don't think Weaver's the type to mind. :)
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Ronski

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Re: Beefy UPS
« Reply #55 on: February 21, 2016, 08:50:01 AM »

No idea what this company is like but a quick Google search found it here for £890

http://www.criticalpowersupplies.co.uk/smt3000i?gclid=CjwKEAiA3aW2BRCD_cOo5oCFuUMSJADiIMIL_hoZ3fvrm7D0txv2MihfmDp7MMgXvQzABNg3kqv_iRoCx7rw_wcB

To make it easier to move you could remove the batteries, there's two and they weigh about 12kg each.

http://www.apc.com/shop/gb/en/products/APC-Replacement-Battery-Cartridge-55/P-RBC55

Actually further investigation shows thats two packs of two batteries,  so probably exactly the same ax what's in the 1500 version, but just twice ax many batteries.
« Last Edit: February 21, 2016, 08:53:55 AM by Ronski »
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Weaver

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Re: Beefy UPS
« Reply #56 on: February 21, 2016, 09:04:45 AM »

I can make it to the bathroom, luckily, but most of the time I'm bed bound because of the pain and drunknenness and confusion caused by all the simultaneous pain killers. It's difficult to explain if you've never been there. How much I can do depends on how well I am doing that particular day, and that is governed by how much sleep I have managed to get, and by posture. Whether or not I can install a UPS more depends on whether I can make it to the office without falling over and most important of all on whether I am too confused (drunk) to work out how to plug it in. Try making a cup of tea after you've had ten pints, that's the idea, the real essence of it. You don't need to hear all of this.
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Ronski

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Re: Beefy UPS
« Reply #57 on: February 21, 2016, 09:51:41 AM »

Weaver, the more you tell yourself you cant do something the less likely you will be able to do it. You want a UPS so you will have to find a way to get it installed, now that may well mean enlisting the help of someone you know, which will probably still involve taking the batteries out of the UPS to make it easier to move if it's as big as the APC Smart 3000.
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Weaver

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Re: Beefy UPS
« Reply #58 on: February 21, 2016, 10:11:06 AM »

@ronski - I'll find some muscle from somewhere, that won't be a problem. I was just explaining the reality of my daily situation as best I can, as you can't expect others to be psychic. ;D  but it just isn't possible to try and "fight" the various neuro drugs I'm on, any more than it's possible to try and re-wire a three pin plug after you've had ten pints. I just thought it might make it easier for people if they had some understanding. Burakkucat has been very very helpful in doing jobs for me, for example. And I have some local friends who are gems.

Best
« Last Edit: February 21, 2016, 10:17:05 AM by Weaver »
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Ronski

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Re: Beefy UPS
« Reply #59 on: February 21, 2016, 10:39:39 AM »

I remember your illness from previous posts although others may of course not be aware, hence my suggestion about taking the batteries out so as to try and make it easier, but whilst it makes it lighter, it does of course involve fiddly things.
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