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Author Topic: Investigating Billion BiPAC 8800NL Line Stats  (Read 38560 times)

William Grimsley

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Investigating Billion BiPAC 8800NL Line Stats
« on: February 02, 2016, 08:04:47 PM »

Hello guys,

Sorry to keep posting, I just want to learn and learning is good, right?

Anyway, for some reason the line stats provided by the Billion BiPAC 8800NL are a bit shall I say "different" to normal.

OH Frames   0   0
OH Frame Errors   0   0
RS Words   615817784   427687
RS Correctable Errors   172437   24
RS Uncorrectable Errors   0   0
HEC Errors   0   0
OCD Errors   0   0
LCD Errors   0   0
Total Cells   692860875   0
Data Cells   10996104   0
Bit Errors   0

The errors above are what I'm getting confused over especially the HEC, OCD and LCD errors. Are any of them similar to FEC and CRC? I have looked in the Kitz guide but it doesn't mention that they are similar.

Thanks!
« Last Edit: February 12, 2016, 01:20:16 PM by William Grimsley »
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kitz

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Re: Investigating Billion 8800NL Line Stats
« Reply #1 on: February 02, 2016, 08:49:04 PM »

Quote
Anyway, for some reason the line stats provided by the Billion 8800NL are a bit shall I say "different" to normal.

Thats possibly because you are seeing full line stats for the first time.  :)

HECs are similar to a CRC
RS Correctable Errors are FECs.
RS Uncorrectable Errors are CRCs

They should all be listed on this page
http://www.kitz.co.uk/adsl/linestats_errors.htm

I dont have some of the g.inp errors listed on there yet though as I dont think weve fully figured them all out yet.
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William Grimsley

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Re: Investigating Billion 8800NL Line Stats
« Reply #2 on: February 02, 2016, 10:50:50 PM »


Thats possibly because you are seeing full line stats for the first time.  :)

HECs are similar to a CRC
RS Correctable Errors are FECs.
RS Uncorrectable Errors are CRCs

They should all be listed on this page
http://www.kitz.co.uk/adsl/linestats_errors.htm

I dont have some of the g.inp errors listed on there yet though as I dont think weve fully figured them all out yet.

Ah ok, thanks for that, Kitz.

Just to confirm, would any of those above stats be related to LOS, LOF or LOM errors?
« Last Edit: February 03, 2016, 08:14:04 AM by William Grimsley »
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WWWombat

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Re: Investigating Billion 8800NL Line Stats
« Reply #3 on: February 04, 2016, 02:03:13 AM »

Quote
Anyway, for some reason the line stats provided by the Billion 8800NL are a bit shall I say "different" to normal.

Thats possibly because you are seeing full line stats for the first time.  :)

HECs are similar to a CRC
RS Correctable Errors are FECs.
RS Uncorrectable Errors are CRCs

I'll just alter that slightly...

OHF Errors are CRC errors (there is a 1:1 relationship).

RS Uncorrectable errors inevitably lead to CRC errors, but there can be (and usually is) a 1:many relationship. Any one of those "RS Uncorrectable errors" *will* cause the (bigger) CRC block check to fail. However, due to the nature of noise, where one RS Uncorrectable error occurs, there are often more. And many "RS Uncorrectable errors" can all happen within one CRC block. Once one error has broken the block, it doesn't matter if another 20 break it too...

LOS = Loss of Signal
LOF = Loss of framing
LOM = loss of margin

When modems are sending data back and forth, they need to keep control of it, and be able to exchange control data with the modem at the far end.

For this purpose, they surround your "user data" in frames, and protect that user data with CRCs and (optionally) with the FEC and RS mechanism. The frames provide a way for the modems to identify just where the user data is, and to exchange a few bits of data (so, for example, you can find out the stats from the other end).

If noise interferes with the user data, it gets detected as a CRC error, and reported by the modem that way. If noise interferes with the surrounding framing data, the modem will tend to report LOS or LOF errors. Too many LOS or LOF errors, and the modem decides a resync is needed.

When you have powered off your modem, the first thing the remote DSLAM probably discovers is LOS or LOF. If the modem supports the concept of "dying gasp", then the removal of power gives the modem a few last frames (powered by capacitor) to report a loss of power instead..
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William Grimsley

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Re: Investigating Billion 8800NL Line Stats
« Reply #4 on: February 04, 2016, 09:52:21 AM »


I'll just alter that slightly...

OHF Errors are CRC errors (there is a 1:1 relationship).

RS Uncorrectable errors inevitably lead to CRC errors, but there can be (and usually is) a 1:many relationship. Any one of those "RS Uncorrectable errors" *will* cause the (bigger) CRC block check to fail. However, due to the nature of noise, where one RS Uncorrectable error occurs, there are often more. And many "RS Uncorrectable errors" can all happen within one CRC block. Once one error has broken the block, it doesn't matter if another 20 break it too...

LOS = Loss of Signal
LOF = Loss of framing
LOM = loss of margin

When modems are sending data back and forth, they need to keep control of it, and be able to exchange control data with the modem at the far end.

For this purpose, they surround your "user data" in frames, and protect that user data with CRCs and (optionally) with the FEC and RS mechanism. The frames provide a way for the modems to identify just where the user data is, and to exchange a few bits of data (so, for example, you can find out the stats from the other end).

If noise interferes with the user data, it gets detected as a CRC error, and reported by the modem that way. If noise interferes with the surrounding framing data, the modem will tend to report LOS or LOF errors. Too many LOS or LOF errors, and the modem decides a resync is needed.

When you have powered off your modem, the first thing the remote DSLAM probably discovers is LOS or LOF. If the modem supports the concept of "dying gasp", then the removal of power gives the modem a few last frames (powered by capacitor) to report a loss of power instead..

Ok, thanks for the detailed explanation, Kitz. It's greatly appreciated. Do you know why the Billion 8800NL doesn't report those LOS, LOF and LOM errors?

Here are my current line stats:

xDSL
Mode   VDSL2
Traffic Type   PTM
Status   Up
Link Power State   L0
Downstream   Upstream
Line Coding (Trellis)   On   On
SNR Margin (dB)   9.6   6.3
Attenuation (dB)   25.8   0.0
Output Power (dBm)   12.0   5.8
Attainable Rate (Kbps)   44479   8897
Rate (Kbps)   35000   8447
B (# of bytes in Mux Data Frame)   73   196
M (# of Mux Data Frames in an RS codeword)   1   1
T (# of Mux Data Frames in an OH sub-frame)   0   0
R (# of redundancy bytes in the RS codeword)   6   6
S (# of data symbols over which the RS code word spans)   0.0666   0.7358
L (# of bits transmitted in each data symbol)   9610   2207
D (interleaver depth)   8   1
I (interleaver block size in bytes)   80   203
N (RS codeword size)   80   203
Delay (msec)   0   0
INP (DMT symbol)   54.00   55.00
OH Frames   0   0
OH Frame Errors   0   0
RS Words   4210451360   302016
RS Correctable Errors   857190   51
RS Uncorrectable Errors   0   0
HEC Errors   0   0
OCD Errors   0   0
LCD Errors   0   0
Total Cells   441853571   0
Data Cells   46830735   0
Bit Errors   0   0
Total ES   0   0
Total SES   0   0
Total UAS   30   30

I only powered the Billion BiPAC 8800NL off and on twice yesterday which would mean that the line was still in the green MTBR bracket. So, surely DLM should of taken action, decreased INP and increased the Downstream Rate to 40000 Kbps?

« Last Edit: February 12, 2016, 01:20:36 PM by William Grimsley »
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d2d4j

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Re: Investigating Billion 8800NL Line Stats
« Reply #5 on: February 04, 2016, 10:25:19 AM »

Hi

Please could I ask if you were the user who purposefully wanted the DLM to take action on your line

If so, I think you will have to be patient now but I apologise in advance if you are not the user who attempted this

Many thanks

John
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William Grimsley

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Re: Investigating Billion 8800NL Line Stats
« Reply #6 on: February 04, 2016, 10:27:23 AM »

Hi

Please could I ask if you were the user who purposefully wanted the DLM to take action on your line

If so, I think you will have to be patient now but I apologise in advance if you are not the user who attempted this

Many thanks

John

Yes, I was. But, now I've completed the testing, I thought a day of green MTBR would restore the connection to original?
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kitzuser87430

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Re: Investigating Billion 8800NL Line Stats
« Reply #7 on: February 04, 2016, 11:10:48 AM »

Quote
I thought a day of green MTBR would restore the connection to original?
Sorry, you misunderstood; it may take 14 days or more.

http://www.kitz.co.uk/adsl/DLM_system.htm has adsl info that may have some relavence to vdsl2.

IAn
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William Grimsley

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Re: Investigating Billion 8800NL Line Stats
« Reply #8 on: February 04, 2016, 12:00:00 PM »

Quote
I thought a day of green MTBR would restore the connection to original?
Sorry, you misunderstood; it may take 14 days or more.

http://www.kitz.co.uk/adsl/DLM_system.htm has adsl info that may have some relavence to vdsl2.

IAn

14 days? Are you serious? Ah well, a Downstream Rate of 5 Mbps less than 40 Mbps isn't impacting me.
« Last Edit: February 12, 2016, 11:22:20 AM by William Grimsley »
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WWWombat

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Re: Investigating Billion 8800NL Line Stats
« Reply #9 on: February 04, 2016, 01:05:55 PM »

14 days? Are you serious? Ah well, a downstream rate of 5 Mbps less than 40 Mbps isn't impacting me.

No, he's not serious. It could be longer  :o

My first DLM intervention took over a month to remove itself - and that was a plain, single-step of intervention.

Figuring out DLM's behaviour has always been a stab in the dark.
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WWWombat

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Re: Investigating Billion 8800NL Line Stats
« Reply #10 on: February 04, 2016, 01:08:31 PM »

Ok, thanks for the detailed explanation, Kitz. It's greatly appreciated. Do you know why the Billion 8800NL doesn't report those LOS, LOF and LOM errors?

Those values are there when you use the command line to read the values.

I guess the reason that they're missed out of the GUI is because they're rarely relevant.
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William Grimsley

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Re: Investigating Billion 8800NL Line Stats
« Reply #11 on: February 04, 2016, 03:26:23 PM »


Those values are there when you use the command line to read the values.

I guess the reason that they're missed out of the GUI is because they're rarely relevant.

Ah ok, thanks.


No, he's not serious. It could be longer  :o

My first DLM intervention took over a month to remove itself - and that was a plain, single-step of intervention.

Figuring out DLM's behaviour has always been a stab in the dark.

That's interesting, I suppose it really depends on the amount of interleaving and/or the amount of drop in line rate that determines how quickly DLM restores the original line state.
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William Grimsley

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Re: Investigating Billion 8800NL Line Stats
« Reply #12 on: February 05, 2016, 08:28:13 AM »

Just wondering, would powering down the router for 30 minutes increase my line rate?
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d2d4j

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Re: Investigating Billion 8800NL Line Stats
« Reply #13 on: February 05, 2016, 09:39:56 AM »

Hi

Myself, I would consider not, no change until a lapsed time of stability has passed.

I thought you stated it was no big issue as you had only lost 5 mb

I suspect the only way to return the line to full speed would be a DLM reset, which I don't think you would qualify, and to be honest, unfair as you purposely induced the fault

These are just my thoughts so sorry if I'm wrong

Many thanks

John
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William Grimsley

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Re: Investigating Billion 8800NL Line Stats
« Reply #14 on: February 05, 2016, 11:05:26 AM »

Hi

Myself, I would consider not, no change until a lapsed time of stability has passed.

I thought you stated it was no big issue as you had only lost 5 mb

I suspect the only way to return the line to full speed would be a DLM reset, which I don't think you would qualify, and to be honest, unfair as you purposely induced the fault

These are just my thoughts so sorry if I'm wrong

Many thanks

John

Hi John,

There's no need to apologise.

Yes, I would not qualify for a DLM reset. It's no issue but I want to see what sort of line errors I get at 40 Mbps.

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