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Author Topic: Thoughts on my line?  (Read 18881 times)

NewtronStar

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Re: Thoughts on my line?
« Reply #15 on: February 06, 2016, 10:33:05 PM »

Well my thoughts are I don't like those constant forward error correction at 1.2 million per minute and as far as my broadband knowledge goes that is not good.

Having that amount of FEC's on a line always suggests some sort of mains internal interference is getting inside the modem or from an external source which is being radiated onto your D-side and seen at your NTE5A

of course I will ask you do you use any ethernet powerline adapters in your setup
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gt94sss2

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Re: Thoughts on my line?
« Reply #16 on: February 06, 2016, 11:11:05 PM »

Sorry ... been posting from my tablet recently, which isn't very useful for MDWS. I haven't forgotten...

 ;)

Well my thoughts are I don't like those constant forward error correction at 1.2 million per minute and as far as my broadband knowledge goes that is not good.

Having that amount of FEC's on a line always suggests some sort of mains internal interference is getting inside the modem or from an external source which is being radiated onto your D-side and seen at your NTE5A

of course I will ask you do you use any ethernet powerline adapters in your setup

No powerline adapters are present - I did have some temporarily for a few weeks last August but they didn't cause any errors and MDWS shows the FECs only started occuring on my line near the end of October - before that nothing..

Looking again - they seem to have started at around the same time that Bitswaps per min that Bald_Eagle identified stopped..

« Last Edit: February 06, 2016, 11:20:22 PM by gt94sss2 »
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NewtronStar

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Re: Thoughts on my line?
« Reply #17 on: February 07, 2016, 12:37:53 AM »

Looking again - they seem to have started at around the same time that Bitswaps per min that Bald_Eagle identified stopped..

Have you been able to test a different VDSL2 modem on your circuit or do a hold reset on the HG612 to default the user settings.
« Last Edit: February 07, 2016, 01:07:22 AM by NewtronStar »
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gt94sss2

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Re: Thoughts on my line?
« Reply #18 on: February 07, 2016, 01:41:15 AM »

Have you been able to test a different VDSL2 modem on your circuit or do a hold reset on the HG612 to default the user settings.

I have two VDSL modems available - the HG612 which reports the stats and a HH5A which I am man currently using as a router (but it doesn't display/report much data).

I haven't yet rebooted the HG612 and was planning to power cycle it - by hold reset do you mean holding the reset button for 5/10 seconds? (would that mean I would have to reflash the modem?)

Have to say that the modem has been untouched for almost 6 months though - apart from me disabling QOS and trying to enable pinging but thats just in the last week or so.



« Last Edit: February 07, 2016, 01:50:35 AM by gt94sss2 »
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WWWombat

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Re: Thoughts on my line?
« Reply #19 on: February 07, 2016, 10:49:56 AM »

I am now set up to monitor your service via MDWS. At a quick glance, there is nothing that I can point to and say "Ah, ha!"
 
You certainly have a low level of regular US CRCs (either 1 or 2). With regards to the FECs, it is clear that the error correction mechanism is working very hard for the DS.

The QLN is really quite elevated and seeing those big spikes at the low frequency end makes me wonder if the AC balance of the pair is not as good as it could be.

The Hlog plot has the classic shape and there is nothing of significance to report.

Perhaps an Analytical Eagle or WWWombat may be able to look a little closer? Let's see who hears my whistle . . .  :whistle:

I've been looking, and can't see anything beyond these same items.

The things that stand out for me:
- The attenuation values are very close to my previous line. That was about 375m from the cabinet; when it first got an 80/20 service in early 2012, it claimed an attainable value of 84/24, which reduced over 3 years to 79/23. I've attached the montage of stats for that line: Hlog is very similar, but QLN is *very* clean compared to @gt94's
- @gt94's QLN is roughly 10dB noisier across the downstream spectrum, so it isn't surprising that the attainable speed is nearly 30Mbps lower. The upstream spectrum is almost identical, so it isn't surprising that the attainable there is around 20Mbps.
- The FEC rate is amazingly high, amazingly consistent, and amazingly well-corrected.

I started trying to do some calculations on the FEC's, but realised that I need to check some specs, and that the data from the command output alone isn't consistent enough.

Can you take 3 sets of "--stats" commands, 15 minutes apart, and post the results of all three? Thanks...
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gt94sss2

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Re: Thoughts on my line?
« Reply #20 on: February 07, 2016, 01:44:47 PM »

I started trying to do some calculations on the FEC's, but realised that I need to check some specs, and that the data from the command output alone isn't consistent enough.

Can you take 3 sets of "--stats" commands, 15 minutes apart, and post the results of all three? Thanks...

Attached, as requested.

Many thanks for everyone's assistance so far.



[attachment deleted by admin]
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NewtronStar

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Re: Thoughts on my line?
« Reply #21 on: February 07, 2016, 05:12:54 PM »

When I check on MDWS who are on VDSL2 most or all users have some downstream bit swapping
"Adaptive coding and modulation (ACM)" going on all the time but your circuit is showing zero DS bitswaps as seen by Bald-Eagle1 though the upstream has a few dozen or so swaps in 24h

The Bit swapping is done by the modem I think and it's just odd the US is swapping bits yet the DS is not that is why my focus is on the modem itself.
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WWWombat

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Re: Thoughts on my line?
« Reply #22 on: February 07, 2016, 06:57:26 PM »

I'm away, with tablet only, so rough calculations for now.

Those readings are 900 seconds apart.
The RS block counter increases by roughly 25 million; I make that roughly 180 user-data bytes per RS block, which is close to what the line stats say.

At the same time, RSCorr increases by roughly 19 million. That means we are seeing 19 errors in every 25 blocks - some 76% - being corrupted. But only corrupted by enough for FEC correction to always work.

If we assume this is just one bit error, happening at a regular rate, then it is 19 bit faults every 4500 bytes, or 1 fault every 237 bytes, or 1 fault every 1900 bits. This is high!

With the line running at 40 Mbps, an error every 1900 bits could suggest an impulse rate of 21 kHz ... but this calculation is only worthwhile if bits were transmitted linearly, one at a time.

However, DSL transmits many bits in parallel: lots of bits on each of many tones. I think it works out at 10,000 bits sent at the same instant, spread across 2739 tones, with this repeated 4,000 times per second.

Our error rate of 1 bit in 1,900 means we need 5 faulty bits in the batch of 10,000. Every batch of 10,000.

I'm wondering if this kind of error rate could mean that one tone is broken, and transmitting duff data ... but it can't be turned off because bit swapping has stopped. It would be the kind of fault the explains the high fault rate, the consistency, and the recoverability - and pulls in the other observable issue.

Any thoughts?

I'll be back later, when I can calculate more accurately.
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gt94sss2

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Re: Thoughts on my line?
« Reply #23 on: February 08, 2016, 01:06:23 AM »

I'm wondering if this kind of error rate could mean that one tone is broken, and transmitting duff data ... but it can't be turned off because bit swapping has stopped. It would be the kind of fault the explains the high fault rate, the consistency, and the recoverability - and pulls in the other observable issue.

Any thoughts?

I hope the question wasn't directed at me as I have to confess your excellent grasp of technical issues went erm.. slightly over my head  ;D :-[ [I'm going to have to read it a few more times!]

However, I took some screen grabs from DSLStats which may (or may not!) help and what I consider an unexpected development..

First, what I had intended to post in response to your reply.

1) The downstream FEC rate is relatively constant as you can see here - this is how it is most of the time
2) But it does have peaks as in this image - this image is showing it more 'extreme' than it usually is -  and you see it at one point it went to 0 for one sample

I then run a remote telephone voice line test via the BT website. It claimed not to find a fault though I swear I can sometimes hear noise on the 17070 QLN test but did lead to these two developments which I wasn't really expecting:

3. My Upstream SNRM bands have changed significantly. I presume this is due to the line test but don't know why they haven't gone back to 'normal' after the test finished (edit : seems to have lasted for 4 hours)
4. I had a sudden and shortlived burst of upstream bitswaps appearing (edit: now realise I have had upstream bit swaps before but hadn't told dslstats to graph them locally - it's the downstream ones which are MIA)

However, no impact on the level of downstream FECs...
« Last Edit: February 08, 2016, 09:21:21 AM by gt94sss2 »
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WWWombat

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Re: Thoughts on my line?
« Reply #24 on: February 08, 2016, 09:29:24 AM »

I hope the question wasn't directed at me

You're welcome to comment freely, but I too was hoping to whistle up some support from a few of the people who looks more deeply at stats.  :help:

That's because...

as I have to confess your excellent grasp of technical issues went erm.. slightly over my head  ;D :-[ [I'm going to have to read it a few more times!]

I might be pretty good at interpreting the stats, but it is very much a self-taught enterprise ... which means I can be wrong, and I can miss stuff. And, of course, might not have ever learnt about some aspects.

In your case, your FEC rate is so high that it can no longer be explained in normal terms (X errors per second, or Y errors per N bits), and needs to be thought of differently. I had a kind of "mental epiphany" :idea: when I realised that there is a cutover at (in your case) 10,000 bits. If there is more than 1 error per 10,000 bits, then there is (effectively) an error all the time - an error every time the DSLAM transmits any bits. If there is less than 1 error per 10,000 bits, then the DSLAM manages to transmit bits sometimes without fault.

This is the first time I've had to think in this way - and I suspect none of the other "regular analysts" have come across it either. It'll be new to them too, and I could do to have someone sanity check my thinking!
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Black Sheep

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Re: Thoughts on my line?
« Reply #25 on: February 08, 2016, 11:47:44 AM »

I don't get involved with interpreting the stats on here, but I would whole-heartedly concur with NS in that this sounds very much akin to a REIN-type issue.  :)
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burakkucat

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Re: Thoughts on my line?
« Reply #26 on: February 08, 2016, 05:58:11 PM »

Three quick comments, from The Cattery --
  • It appears that gt94sss2 has stopped uploading data to MDWS, as of 1545 hours today (Mon 8th February 2016).
  • There is something very weird about the FEC data. (Screen-scrape attached, below.)
  • I suspect that this circuit is subjected to a fair degree of cross-talk, having considered the QLN plot.
Puzzled.  ???
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gt94sss2

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Re: Thoughts on my line?
« Reply #27 on: February 08, 2016, 06:57:26 PM »

Three quick comments, from The Cattery --
  • It appears that gt94sss2 has stopped uploading data to MDWS, as of 1545 hours today (Mon 8th February 2016).
  • There is something very weird about the FEC data. (Screen-scrape attached, below.)
  • I suspect that this circuit is subjected to a fair degree of cross-talk, having considered the QLN plot.
Puzzled.  ???

Apologies - something dislodged my laptop cable so it went into hibernation - all running again now.

I don't know if this matters but the line only started recording FEC errors after resyncing in late October (when bitswopping also stopped)  - if it is REIN as BS suggests it might be, would there not have been signs of that beforehand?
« Last Edit: February 08, 2016, 07:18:00 PM by gt94sss2 »
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Bald_Eagle1

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Re: Thoughts on my line?
« Reply #28 on: February 08, 2016, 07:02:05 PM »

I think the big question is why did DS bitswapping cease?

It is most unusual for a VDSL2 connection to have no bitswapping - unless it is turned off.

I don't suppose you have or could borrow a spare HG612 to test if bitswapping is still non-existent along with the high FEC counts?


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burakkucat

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Re: Thoughts on my line?
« Reply #29 on: February 08, 2016, 08:04:43 PM »

Just a quick comment . . .

In the past, when a circuit has shown "peculiar behaviour", I have advised powering off the modem and disconnecting the link cable (modem to centralised filter) over night. Then when the service is required the next day, reconnect the link cable and power up the modem.

I recall that when N*Star's circuit was acting "somewhat odd", by performing the above -- just the once -- circuit normality was restored.
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