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Author Topic: Danish TDC - Bonding, Vplus, G.fast  (Read 11553 times)

Black Sheep

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Re: Danish TDC - Bonding, Vplus, G.fast
« Reply #30 on: July 10, 2015, 04:06:43 PM »

Or Austria. Or France. Or Spain (yes really). Or Sweden, Norway, Iceland, Finland. Admittedly we are "ahead" of Italy & (for a few months) Germany. Edit - to be complete we are also "ahead" of Slovakia, Greece & Bulgaria (not by much in Bulgaria though).

That's OK though, you carry on with your "little Englander" viewpoint....

Oooh touchy. I'll concede at this point as you point-blank refuse to accept what BT are saying or have planned for the future. You obviously have access to more info regarding statistics than the relatively unknown, small outfit known as BT Group.
I also hope our Chief Engineering Department (i.e.: Ted and Jack - a couple of retired bus-drivers who potter around in a shed at the bottom of Ted's garden), are looking in and seek advice if they need it, regarding G.fast.

As you were.     
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Black Sheep

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Re: Danish TDC - Bonding, Vplus, G.fast
« Reply #31 on: July 10, 2015, 04:09:49 PM »

The way I look at it is that FTTC got fibre out into the streets, and g.fast will move it further out and far more wide spread, each step getting closer to the end user. Look at it as another step in the direction of full FTTP

Yes it may well cost more in the long run, but at least they have income coming in from each step, which offsets it.

Agree Ronski, and a rather more realistic view-point of what is happening in the comms world. Whatever it does cost, BT have a commitment first and foremost to their shareholders not a few contributors on a few forums.  :)
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Chrysalis

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Re: Danish TDC - Bonding, Vplus, G.fast
« Reply #32 on: July 11, 2015, 01:30:24 AM »

Both ronski and rizla got valid points.

I agree with ronski that g.fast (if BT actually extend the fibre, I think they will just deploy from cabinets) will be a step closer to FTTP.

But, Rizla's point has a lot of merits and I am sitting here dumbfounded as to why BT havent bothered with vectoring, its a logical step forward which shouldnt have a large cost.  BT proved somewhat inept when they they did their limited rollout of g.inp which should have been a fairly trivial deployment.  What I have observed with BT is instead of doing regular incremental improvements to their technology they instead prefer to have large gaps between improvements and have a large step in improvement when they make those improvements, plus the obsession with modifying technologies that work well elsewhere to their own variant does them no favours.
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Black Sheep

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Re: Danish TDC - Bonding, Vplus, G.fast
« Reply #33 on: July 11, 2015, 10:55:18 AM »

Where does it say BT are 'not bothering with vectoring' ?? This is a complete un-truth. Either that, or they have just sent me a Broadcom SIM (at a cost of nearly 1,000) to use on Vectored Cabs, as their way of having a joke. Times that by 'x' thousand engineers requiring the upgrade ...... and they're having a real laugh.

Or, maybe vectoring is being deployed ?
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Chrysalis

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Re: Danish TDC - Bonding, Vplus, G.fast
« Reply #34 on: July 11, 2015, 11:27:42 AM »

Ok "if" BT dont deploy vectoring, but as it stands they have yet to deploy it.  I can only speak for what is happening now and their public announcements. :)
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Ronski

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Re: Danish TDC - Bonding, Vplus, G.fast
« Reply #35 on: July 11, 2015, 11:41:48 AM »

What are they doing in the G.Fast trial areas, just cabinets or extending further out?

The map on this page shows that they are extending out with the DPU's being G.Fast Distribution Point Units.
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KIAB

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Re: Danish TDC - Bonding, Vplus, G.fast
« Reply #36 on: July 11, 2015, 11:56:16 AM »

Where does it say BT are 'not bothering with vectoring' ?? This is a complete un-truth. Either that, or they have just sent me a Broadcom SIM (at a cost of nearly 1,000) to use on Vectored Cabs, as their way of having a joke. Times that by 'x' thousand engineers requiring the upgrade ...... and they're having a real laugh.

Or, maybe vectoring is being deployed ?

So,reading between the lines then Black Sheep, vectoring must be close (very close  :hmm:) to being deployed. ;) :o
« Last Edit: July 14, 2015, 07:40:35 AM by KIAB »
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gt94sss2

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Re: Danish TDC - Bonding, Vplus, G.fast
« Reply #37 on: July 11, 2015, 12:23:09 PM »

What I have observed with BT is instead of doing regular incremental improvements to their technology they instead prefer to have large gaps between improvements and have a large step in improvement when they make those improvements, plus the obsession with modifying technologies that work well elsewhere to their own variant does them no favours.

Where is BT doing this? I thought the fact they were waiting until standards were set/kit available was one of the factors slowing down new things - and other (non UK) telco's tend to be more willing to deploy based on draft standards.
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Chrysalis

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Re: Danish TDC - Bonding, Vplus, G.fast
« Reply #38 on: July 11, 2015, 12:33:29 PM »

What are they doing in the G.Fast trial areas, just cabinets or extending further out?

The map on this page shows that they are extending out with the DPU's being G.Fast Distribution Point Units.

thanks ronski, first time I seen that image.
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NewtronStar

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Re: Danish TDC - Bonding, Vplus, G.fast
« Reply #39 on: July 11, 2015, 08:02:36 PM »

Fibre-to-the-Remote-Node (FTTrN) as it's known, where does the word G.Fast come in ?
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Ronski

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Re: Danish TDC - Bonding, Vplus, G.fast
« Reply #40 on: July 11, 2015, 10:17:53 PM »

Not sure I know what you mean NS?
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WWWombat

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Re: Danish TDC - Bonding, Vplus, G.fast
« Reply #41 on: July 14, 2015, 04:42:15 AM »

Interesting debate since I was last here!

Riz - I get the impression your work with A-L is not necessarily current. Is that true? Or are you relating information about state-of-the-art?

The impression I got, from reading BT bumph, is that that they're aiming for a self-styled "multi-100-megabit" at first, which I read to mean 200-300Mbps. The stuff on 500 Mbps seems to be toward the end of their 10-year vision. My take on their change of emphasis is that they now think a rollout based (initially) on existing cabinets is a worthwhile strategy ... suggesting that range is perceived to be better than expected. The higher speeds can be left to the second half, with deeper nodes.

Relating to this, both BT and Sckipio seem to report that G.Fast is behaving better than they expected. Sckipio seem to report good results (though I'd expect a manufacturer to not be immune to hype). The earlier reports are encapsulated in this article:
http://gfastnews.com/index.php/90-r/157-suddenly-g-fast-is-400-500-meters-not-100-200-meters

Since then, Sckipio have made a presentation at one of this year's major G.Fast conflab's. In the presentation audio (from youtube, towards the end), you can hear the references to where G.fast can be taken in the future ... and, in particular, hear the references to BT targeting longer range.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HPDRS06t5Kg

What I take from both of those happens to match what I see from BT. As an example, see this presentation from UKNOF:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LLpk2dz6nBQ
Here you can see that their 500Mbps aims are related for G.fast mk.II, and not the current version. But the strategy and direction seem clear.
(@Chrys - that map you hadn't seen before comes from this presentation)

The most recent article I've seen is this one:
http://gfastnews.com/index.php/90-r/170-more-megahertz-g-fast-s-simple-story

I see promising things appearing in a plausible pipeline. But I don't doubt that the economics hinge around some very tight criteria, and that some things won't pan out as well as hoped.

@NS - FTTRN is BT's terminology for a small VDSL2 cabinet sited deeper in the network, to suit premises that are more than 1km from the existing FTTC cabinet. It still aims at today's superfast packages, up to 80Mbps, and has nothing whatsoever to do with G.fast or FTTdp.
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Black Sheep

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Re: Danish TDC - Bonding, Vplus, G.fast
« Reply #42 on: July 14, 2015, 07:29:20 AM »

Wow ...... great post ..... very informative. :)
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Chrysalis

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Re: Danish TDC - Bonding, Vplus, G.fast
« Reply #43 on: July 14, 2015, 08:45:34 AM »

so cabinet only in early rollout, then the extra nodes latter part of rollout?
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WWWombat

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Re: Danish TDC - Bonding, Vplus, G.fast
« Reply #44 on: July 14, 2015, 11:30:04 AM »

That's my interpretation, based on reading a variety of BT statements alongside a number of analysis pieces. It might not be quite so black and white in the end, though.

And, IMHO, the biggest issue isn't about the telco side of things, but about humble power.

My understanding of the current FTTC rollout (in both the commercial and BDUK portions) is that power is one of the biggest problem areas. Even as standard (a one-of payment of around 1,000), the cost of power installation is one line item that makes or breaks a cabinet; excess costs can easily bring the cabinet out of the project - and this can happen if the power company passes on costs, eg for new transformers. As an example, 3 cabinets were found in one town in my county to need 90,000 to get power to them; they were dropped from the project until the LA used some "leverage" to persuade BT to include them.

The power problem extends to FTTRN, and is what has stalled progress there. The only existing/known rural node needed a separate power cabinet building for it.

If we assume that a G.Fast rollout will be plagued by the same issue, I think we are standing on safe ground.

So, having said that, it is easy to see that BT can probably manage to deploy a G.fast node at the existing FTTC site without worrying about the cost of power, as they can feed it off their existing one. However, any extra nodes will either need local power of their own, or will need "forward power" fed over spare copper from the current node, or will depend on "reverse power" fed from the end users.

Deploying extra nodes will become a trade-off between the distance away from end-users (fewer nodes, slower speeds) vs the distance away from the existing cabinet ("forward power" losses depending on length of copper) vs the maturity and acceptability of "reverse power" solutions.

Cabinet-only becomes a relatively easy no-brainer, while extra nodes need some finesse.

But there's an upper limit, financially, to all this: there's no point spending more (in any one area) than an FTTH rollout would cost.
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