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Author Topic: Danish TDC - Bonding, Vplus, G.fast  (Read 12008 times)

WWWombat

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Danish TDC - Bonding, Vplus, G.fast
« on: June 10, 2015, 04:04:00 PM »

My discovery of "profile 35b" (linked here) came about when I found some information about the Danish telco TDC, and their vectoring deployment, combined with pair bonding. Some details can be seen in this document, which is in Danish (but Google translate helps in portions):
https://wholesale.tdc.dk/Produkter/Branchemoede_2015_04_28_Produkt_Udviklingsplaner.pdf

Pages 2,13 and 54 show details (including new speed categories up to 150/50) for pair bonding in combination with vectoring.

However, the document also gives details of both their trials with G.fast *and* Vplus/Profile-35b technology.
Interesting... once you can translate it!

The graph shown is a slight variation from Alcatel's original article on Vplus, and now includes the 35MHz performance data...
http://www2.alcatel-lucent.com/techzine/vplus-gets-vdsl2-vectoring/
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boost

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Re: Danish TDC - Bonding, Vplus, G.fast
« Reply #1 on: June 10, 2015, 04:49:47 PM »

Great image, thanks :D

That makes me wonder just how G.fast works. Serious number crunching hardware at both sides? :)
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Chrysalis

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Re: Danish TDC - Bonding, Vplus, G.fast
« Reply #2 on: June 13, 2015, 12:53:08 PM »

I dont buy the viewpoint that vectoring is not worth rolling out because of g.fast, both technologies have a place.
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ejs

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Re: Danish TDC - Bonding, Vplus, G.fast
« Reply #3 on: June 13, 2015, 02:04:15 PM »

Perhaps it's not worth adding or replacing cabinet hardware to support vectored VDSL2, if instead some of might be replaced by G.fast hardware that could also do vectored VDSL2 for longer lines. It might depend on what the cost of the FTTC cabinet contents was compared to the cost of getting fibre and power to all those cabinets.
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dee.jay

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Re: Danish TDC - Bonding, Vplus, G.fast
« Reply #4 on: June 25, 2015, 11:50:05 AM »

Interesting graphic.

Out of interest this morning I've been trying to work out exactly why it is I get a rather nice sync (77360/19999) when I'm apparently 450M (straight line) to my cabinet. Obviously it could be slightly more than that - I don't know where the wires go.

Looks like G.Fast will be useless for me though which was what I feared. BUT, I can't complain too much - I do get 77Mbit... Though I'd be interested in 200Mbit vplus......
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Ronski

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Re: Danish TDC - Bonding, Vplus, G.fast
« Reply #5 on: June 25, 2015, 01:30:33 PM »

Gfast won't necessarily be useless, all depends where they locate the equipment. I'm also 450m confirmed but currently  syncing at 44/6 :-(
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Chrysalis

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Re: Danish TDC - Bonding, Vplus, G.fast
« Reply #6 on: June 25, 2015, 02:34:43 PM »

your sync seems very bad for 450m ronski.

I am close to 400m and have 73/20 with the US having 30 attainable.

Plus part of my line is ali.

Most graphs also rate 450m higher than 44 as well.
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GigabitEthernet

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Re: Danish TDC - Bonding, Vplus, G.fast
« Reply #7 on: June 25, 2015, 02:51:41 PM »

Gfast won't necessarily be useless, all depends where they locate the equipment. I'm also 450m confirmed but currently  syncing at 44/6 :-(


I'm syncing faster and I'm at least 750m away so something seems up with your line.

Have you got any graphs (e.g. Hlog, QLN) to show us?
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Ronski

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Re: Danish TDC - Bonding, Vplus, G.fast
« Reply #8 on: June 25, 2015, 03:44:42 PM »

I've had FTTC for almost 3 years now, the sync for the distance has always been bad, I was first on the cab, best I've had is just over 50, worse just under 40. Upstream has halved over the three years, but down stream has generally improved. In the early days I did try and persuade PN/BTor to look into it, but got  no where apart from a basic check. It's plenty fast enough for what we use it for, so it's not worth the hassle, I'll just wait for  vectoring  (eci cab though) or better still gfast.

PS. Stats are on MDSLWB
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boost

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Re: Danish TDC - Bonding, Vplus, G.fast
« Reply #9 on: June 26, 2015, 10:54:43 AM »

I can't seem to zoom into your HLOG but there appears to be a peak in your US0. Local wiring issue/dodgy extension/master/drop cable?
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Ronski

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Re: Danish TDC - Bonding, Vplus, G.fast
« Reply #10 on: June 26, 2015, 01:20:25 PM »

If I get time later and remember I'll start a new thread and post some graphs.
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WWWombat

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Re: Danish TDC - Bonding, Vplus, G.fast
« Reply #11 on: June 26, 2015, 02:10:36 PM »

Out of interest this morning I've been trying to work out exactly why it is I get a rather nice sync (77360/19999) when I'm apparently 450M (straight line) to my cabinet. Obviously it could be slightly more than that - I don't know where the wires go.

Speed depends on the gauge of the copper as much as the length. Thicker copper can give people better performance than someone with half the length.

The lines that were longest (from the exchange) are probably the ones that stand a chance of involving thicker copper, so if you end up close to a cabinet that itself is far from the exchange, you might benefit.

That isn't the only case though. In a previous property, all the houses on the estate had speed estimates consistent with each other. However, dotted around the development were 5 small blocks of apartments; the estimates for these were considerably better than the nearby houses ... in every single case! The only conclusion I could reach was that they used thicker gauge copper to each block, while all the houses were left on standard 0.5mm copper.

Quote
Looks like G.Fast will be useless for me though which was what I feared. BUT, I can't complain too much - I do get 77Mbit... Though I'd be interested in 200Mbit vplus......

As Ronski says, the absolute key thing will be where they choose to put the G.fast nodes. We aren't close to knowing that yet.
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guest

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Re: Danish TDC - Bonding, Vplus, G.fast
« Reply #12 on: July 09, 2015, 02:54:48 PM »

Just noticed this thread & I used to work on some of this stuff for Alcatel-Lucent (probably now out of NDA as well :D).

Vplus is what I know as "Vectored Phantom" (http://www.uknof.org.uk/uknof21/Maes-Gfast.pdf page 5) and you can continue to bond pairs to get upwards of 800Mbps (aggregate, up to the teleco how they want to split up/down speeds) on multiple 100m loops - I've seen it done. Never going to happen in the UK due to LLU for one thing & BT for another.

Not at all sure where people are getting the idea that g.fast doesn't involve vectoring/pre-compensation - it does as you won't believe the xtalk at 100MHz on old copper assets ;) It also sort of requires that you shut down the FM broadcast band (88-107 MHz IIRC) as well - something multiple Brit govts have been trying to do for years for different reasons. Shurely shome coincidence yes? Actually it is in this instance as all the relevant Brit govts have been interested in is maximising licensing revenue (from the broadcasters) & DAB is seen as the golden goose in that regard (we won't go there, DAB in the UK is awful).

Frankly unless you live in a tower block or in a small village (where houses are close together - inside 200m) I doubt many people in the UK will ever have g.fast available to them this side of 2025.
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Black Sheep

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Re: Danish TDC - Bonding, Vplus, G.fast
« Reply #13 on: July 10, 2015, 07:46:24 AM »

Frankly unless you live in a tower block or in a small village (where houses are close together - inside 200m) I doubt many people in the UK will ever have g.fast available to them this side of 2025.

Due to Talk-Talk - SKY's joint venture in York, I've a feeling G.Fast will be making its presence known waaaay before that estimate, Rizla.  ;)

Partial quote below regarding their new Fibre infrastructure.
They have now launched an all-in, entry-level price of 21.70/month for home users and 25/month for businesses, which should make the offer, known as or UltraFibreOptic (UFO), highly competitive
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guest

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Re: Danish TDC - Bonding, Vplus, G.fast
« Reply #14 on: July 10, 2015, 09:00:16 AM »

I hadn't been paying attention to that but I was under the impression that was FTTP?
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