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Author Topic: BBC iPlayer bankrupts ISPs  (Read 10463 times)

guest

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BBC iPlayer bankrupts ISPs
« on: February 21, 2008, 09:47:15 AM »

El Reg has an article up quoting Plusnet who have seen "costs" increase by 200% since the introduction of the iPlayer streaming service. I can't make head nor tail of the actual costs quoted but perhaps someone else can?

Article is here :

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/02/20/iplayer_isps_broke/
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roseway

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Re: BBC iPlayer bankrupts ISPs
« Reply #1 on: February 21, 2008, 10:35:09 AM »

I don't really understand what 'costs' they are talking about, but the general principle comes as no surprise. I've always thought that it's crazy to clog up the internet (a wired system) with entertainment material which can be transmitted much more efficiently by wireless methods. It shouldn't be beyond the wit of man or woman to devise a system in which the customer controls what information is being viewed using the internet, but the material is delivered by wireless.

It's difficult to see a way out of this probable crisis, unless someone with very deep pockets is prepared to cable up the whole country.
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  Eric

kitz

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Re: BBC iPlayer bankrupts ISPs
« Reply #2 on: February 21, 2008, 11:53:07 PM »

Havent looked at the actual costs - either - but what they are saying does seem to ring true.

We all know how expensive CBC IPStream can work out for the ISPs if they have to ensure that there is sufficient capacity to ensure decent speeds at peak time.   Too many ISPs of late have had appalling speeds during peak.

A couple of years ago when I did the " capacity report" for elsewhere it was generally accepted that the costs worked out at approx £1 per GB net for the ISP just for the Central pipes - nvm other costs and transit costs.
BTw (exchange) costs have come down slightly since then...  but the central costs hasnt come down that much.

I've seen some figures showing that average usage for users over the past year or so has increased - mostly due to the likes of youtube and other streaming services..  (if I have time I'll try find them and dig them out) .... I dunno if its a 200% increase though...  but iirc  the ones I saw showed an increase of something like 150%.. so yeah what they are saying could well be feasible now.

>> I've always thought that it's crazy to clog up the internet (a wired system) with entertainment material which can be transmitted much more efficiently by wireless methods

Totally agree.
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guest

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Re: BBC iPlayer bankrupts ISPs
« Reply #3 on: February 22, 2008, 09:30:26 AM »

There's a link to a Plusnet blog (http://community.plus.net/blog/2008/02/08/iplayer-usage-effect-a-bandwidth-explosion/) which explains the reasoning.

Well I think it explains the reasoning but frankly life's too short to read that lot :P Plusnet are owned by BT so all the money is heading in the same direction anyway - I have zero sympathy for moans about "costs" increasing at any BT-owned ISP :)

The iPlayer is nothing but good news for BT if it increases traffic by 200% per user.
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guest

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Re: BBC iPlayer bankrupts ISPs
« Reply #4 on: February 22, 2008, 10:05:00 AM »

I've always thought that it's crazy to clog up the internet (a wired system) with entertainment material which can be transmitted much more efficiently by wireless methods.

Well for live-ish TV if the TV companies, BT and ISPs actually made an effort then multicast is more efficient than "wireless methods" as its not hogging chunks of (very limited) radio spectrum. It isn't currently in BTs interests to make this work properly though and the BBC seem to be the only UK TV company who have even considered multicast, which is odd to say the least as this is exactly what it was designed for. Personally I believe this is where garbage like "Bid-up TV" and the like belong, and not on Freeview, which has way too many channels taking up limited bandwidth. Put them online and Freeview can start facing up to what its going to do about HD-quality video streams amongst other things. Lots of vested interests here hanging onto their frequency allocation so there's another problem :(

Regarding on-demand programming - I don't see much option in the medium term other than to have local caching. i.e. physically locate the most accessed media data as close as possible to the end-user - probably in a rack at the exchange. It wouldn't be too hard (or expensive) to simply mirror the BBC's iPlayer files and divert requests for those to the kit in the exchange especially given that the size of the exchange naturally limits the number of concurrent streams being served. Who pays and the usual copyright/DRM nonsense will delay this I reckon. Oh and of course its not really in BTs interests to do this as they'd lose revenue on central pipes.
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mr_chris

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Re: BBC iPlayer bankrupts ISPs
« Reply #5 on: February 22, 2008, 10:20:31 AM »

The iPlayer is nothing but good news for BT if it increases traffic by 200% per user.

How do you come to that conclusion??! Yeah, great news... they either let the consumers suffer with congested VPs or spend money increasing the backhaul. Did you really mean bad news? ;)

Edit, oh, I see you mean extra central pipe revenue... but ISPs won't suddenly increase their capacity by 200% without twice as many users, they'll just throttle more down if they can, or if they don't have the equipment to do so, the end users will suffer. Either way, I can't see BT making much more in central rental costs, tbh. So I still say its bad news!
« Last Edit: February 22, 2008, 10:23:08 AM by mr_chris »
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Chris

kitz

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Re: BBC iPlayer bankrupts ISPs
« Reply #6 on: February 22, 2008, 10:33:59 AM »

>> It isn't currently in BTs interests to make this work properly though and the BBC seem to be the only UK TV company who have even considered multicast,

Major problem with multi-cast in that it really only saves transit cost... or nothing... if the ISP already has a direct peer with the BBC.   
Traffic still has to pass over the centrals...

Can you also imagine the impact of 5 people say watching a 2Mbps footy or tennis stream..   Those 5 users could very seriously affect many a VP backhaul which may say only be 10-15Mb.
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mr_chris

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Re: BBC iPlayer bankrupts ISPs
« Reply #7 on: February 22, 2008, 10:50:46 AM »

Exactly - multicast is next to useless for this country's current ADSL infrastructure. The major bandwidth costs are the centrals and (I presume) the exchange backhaul... given the last IP hop en route to the end user is at the ISP, that is where the multicast benefit also ends!

5 users in the same exchange watching a 2Mb multicast vid will use 10Mb of central pipe and backhaul bandwidth between them.

In fact the only people it's really saving any money is the BBC themselves, on Internet transit costs (which given the low scale of the trials, was probably negligible anyway!)

The number of routers that had problems with multicast probably made it little worthwhile persevering with and so they appear to have put it on the back burner (indefinitely?) - there are probably hundreds of thousands of DG834s out there, none of them will do multicast.

It may benefit the likes of Be, as they obviously don't use the BT infrastructure, but given the rDNS of their interim hops gives no clue as to the actual whereabouts of the hops themselves, it's anybody's guess how they have their network set up!!
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Chris

guest

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Re: BBC iPlayer bankrupts ISPs
« Reply #8 on: February 22, 2008, 11:37:21 AM »

Multicast would work fine on Be, Virgin (cable), in fact every LLU ADSL operator could utilise it now. What you're both saying is that it doesn't work on IPStream.

I did say it wasn't currently in BT's interests to make it work didn't I? ;)
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guest

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Re: BBC iPlayer bankrupts ISPs
« Reply #9 on: February 22, 2008, 11:39:44 AM »

>> It isn't currently in BTs interests to make this work properly though and the BBC seem to be the only UK TV company who have even considered multicast,

Major problem with multi-cast in that it really only saves transit cost... or nothing... if the ISP already has a direct peer with the BBC.   
Traffic still has to pass over the centrals...

Can you also imagine the impact of 5 people say watching a 2Mbps footy or tennis stream..   Those 5 users could very seriously affect many a VP backhaul which may say only be 10-15Mb.

I can imagine the impact of 50 people watching the same stream using multicast - it'd be exactly the same as if one user was watching it :)
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mr_chris

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Re: BBC iPlayer bankrupts ISPs
« Reply #10 on: February 22, 2008, 11:57:58 AM »

Impact on where?
I can imagine the impact of 50 people watching the same stream using multicast - it'd be exactly the same as if one user was watching it :)

Nope, not if you're talking about the ISP Central pipes and the exchange backhaul. It would be exactly the same as watching 50 unicast streams. The only saving would be on the transit from the BBC --> ISP and in the ISP's internal network.
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Chris

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Re: BBC iPlayer bankrupts ISPs
« Reply #11 on: February 22, 2008, 12:26:49 PM »

Nope, not if you're talking about the ISP Central pipes and the exchange backhaul. It would be exactly the same as watching 50 unicast streams. The only saving would be on the transit from the BBC --> ISP and in the ISP's internal network.

Only with the current implementation of IPStream. I have a vague memory of Adrian at AAISP saying that you could actually get it working end-to-end but its nothing more than a vague memory.

PS - Be use BT LAN Extension Services for backhaul to pop
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mr_chris

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Re: BBC iPlayer bankrupts ISPs
« Reply #12 on: February 22, 2008, 12:42:23 PM »

Nope, not if you're talking about the ISP Central pipes and the exchange backhaul. It would be exactly the same as watching 50 unicast streams. The only saving would be on the transit from the BBC --> ISP and in the ISP's internal network.

Only with the current implementation of IPStream. I have a vague memory of Adrian at AAISP saying that you could actually get it working end-to-end but its nothing more than a vague memory.

Yeah, but that's probably why the BBC abandoned it and nobody else bothered with it... simply because the current implementation is currently the only implementation of IPStream available!

Hopefully the new wholesale broadband connect (or whatever it's called now) may go some way to address this, and at least be able to multicast a stream to a regional PoP, if not an exchange, crucially so that the ISP benefits from the bandwidth savings. As for when that's likely to happen, if at all... who knows!

PS - Be use BT LAN Extension Services for backhaul to pop

Ah right, thanks... so basically Be is one large routed IP network, as I suspected. So in theory it's possible that Be could implement quite an effective IGMP solution on their network then. Could be interesting - and all Be users are supplied with a multicast-capable router too! They could be the ideal partner for some multicast trials!
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Chris

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Re: BBC iPlayer bankrupts ISPs
« Reply #13 on: February 22, 2008, 01:48:54 PM »

Ah right, thanks... so basically Be is one large routed IP network, as I suspected. So in theory it's possible that Be could implement quite an effective IGMP solution on their network then. Could be interesting - and all Be users are supplied with a multicast-capable router too! They could be the ideal partner for some multicast trials!

Well the profile my BeBox had was "Static IP, Three Data ports" with the fourth port being reserved for "Future Video Use" so obviously multicast occurred to someone at some point in the past. I think they've binned that idea now though.
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setecio

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Re: BBC iPlayer bankrupts ISPs
« Reply #14 on: March 14, 2008, 11:52:17 AM »

I smell a conspiracy by the BBC, ITV, C4, Five to cause internet TV to drive all the ISPs bankrupt  ;)
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