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Author Topic: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.  (Read 149590 times)

kitz

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Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
« Reply #15 on: April 07, 2015, 09:14:23 PM »

Quote
I believe there are 2 types of G.Vector
I havent read the specs or links, but if you are referring to the type of vectoring that is performed at the dslam then yes.

The ECI M41's can only do so at line card level. 
The Huaweis at system/shelf level, but I believe they need to install another module into the cabs.

The later is far more efficient.
Seems like BT bought a bit of a dud with the ECI's.  I keep hoping that ECI can find some way of slotting in a module rather than having to replace with a V41.

Rather than me repeat myself see here:
http://forum.kitz.co.uk/index.php/topic,13902.msg261924.html#msg261924
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Chrysalis

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Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
« Reply #16 on: April 07, 2015, 09:23:40 PM »

agreed kitz, I observed (and so did ronski) that when BT announced vectoring at the time they were rolling out ECI's almost in all new areas but then very quickly reverted to huawei.  I expect at that point they were aware of the problem.

Card based vectoring can still work if the cable routing is managed to match, but its unlikely that openreach will be moving end users around to optimise it, they will likely just turn it on and hope for the best. (or do no rollout on ECI if the trial results are really bad).

But here is hoping they are negotiating with ECI for a cheap swapout to V41's.

Also bear in mind the V41 was on the market during the M41 rollout, so its not as if ECI didnt have something better available, but seems a problem of BT thinking too short term and going for the cheapest option.
« Last Edit: April 07, 2015, 09:27:00 PM by Chrysalis »
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kitz

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Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
« Reply #17 on: April 07, 2015, 09:26:37 PM »

Yep you're correct, in 2013 they seemed to be installing ECI's everywhere, then it just ground to a stop and back to Huawei. 
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Chrysalis

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Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
« Reply #18 on: April 07, 2015, 09:28:52 PM »

yeah I fell near the end of the ECI window :( cabinet went live in dec 2013.
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NewtronStar

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Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
« Reply #19 on: April 07, 2015, 09:40:18 PM »

yeah I fell near the end of the ECI window :( cabinet went live in dec 2013.

The ECI did it's job very well and a lot of users out there were convinced that the ECI modem gave them a better Downstream rate with less overall errors in the year 2013 so who is to blame for that ? just your standard overclocker false information.
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kitz

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Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
« Reply #20 on: April 08, 2015, 06:47:59 PM »

Re TP-Link TD-W9980.   -  Am currently in communication with them and they are aware of a compatibility issue.   I've asked a couple more questions and asked for permission to quote some of the info.  Will try keep this thread updated, as I know there's a lot of people with this modem/router.  All I can say for now is they are aware and are working on finding a solution.
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boost

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Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
« Reply #21 on: April 08, 2015, 07:31:16 PM »

Quote
I believe someone suggested that US rate of 20000 was synonoomommous with g.inp?

Ive always sync'd at 20,000 upstream.  Ive never paid much attention to the 79999, 79998 or 79987 etc as I thought it was perhaps just a quirk of the modem/dslam.

These are some of mine

79999 20000  HG612
79987 20000  Zyxel
80000 20000  TP-Link

I thought exactly the same. I bet it was w3 that pointed it out too :)
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Ignitionnet

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Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
« Reply #22 on: April 08, 2015, 09:56:49 PM »

I havent read the specs or links, but if you are referring to the type of vectoring that is performed at the dslam then yes.

The ECI M41's can only do so at line card level. 
The Huaweis at system/shelf level, but I believe they need to install another module into the cabs.

The later is far more efficient.
Seems like BT bought a bit of a dud with the ECI's.  I keep hoping that ECI can find some way of slotting in a module rather than having to replace with a V41.

The Huawei kit needs installation of a Vectoring Processing Engine - basically a card that crunches telemetry supplied by the line cards then sends back the required noise cancellation parameters.

The bottleneck on the ECIs is the backplane, hence the need for a new chassis. The alternative would be to replace all the line cards with cards with their own optical interfaces then connect all the line cards together either directly or via an intermediate card.

The Huawei devices also offer node level vectoring where 2 VPEs are connected via a 40Gb cross-connect with telemetry between cabinets being exchanged on that path.

That 40Gb is required should also give some idea of the backplane capacity needed to do system level vectoring, too.
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HighBeta

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Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
« Reply #23 on: April 08, 2015, 11:03:03 PM »

Enlightening post thanks Ignitionnet.

I wonder if this would help things for eci/r ?
Code: [Select]
/etc/init.d/ifx_cpe_control_init.sh
#197
xTM_Mgmt_Mode=""
        wanphy_phymode=0:
        BS_ENA=1
        SRA_ENA=1
+++ RETX_ENA=1 ++++       
         CNTL_MODE_ENA=0
         CNTL_MODE=0
« Last Edit: April 08, 2015, 11:12:58 PM by HighBeta »
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kitz

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Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
« Reply #24 on: April 08, 2015, 11:37:07 PM »

Hi Ignitionnet and welcome :)

Thank you for the additional information. I believe I may have been the first to mention that Vectoring could be done on a line card basis when everyone else was saying vectoring on the ECI's was impossible.

Quote
>> The bottleneck on the ECIs is the backplane, hence the need for a new chassis.

my at the time 'dumbed down speak' was "nearest I can equate it to is wanting to add a new PCI card into your PC, but youve run out of PCI slots."


I didnt know much about the Huawei cabs as I'd not personally looked into it & was going off mostly what Asbo had said, but your name had been brought up here, so its lovely to see you join us so that you can add your wealth of knowledge to the discussion.

TBH I dont believe that BT would opt for line card vectoring because of its inefficiency, do you have any views what BT may do, or am I asking you to speculate too much?
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kitz

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Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
« Reply #25 on: April 08, 2015, 11:44:44 PM »

I wonder if this would help things for eci/r ?

I'm waiting to see what TP-Link come back to me with and see if they answer any my further questions and permission to quote because it may give us more of an insight into the problem.  I don't think Im giving away any confidences if I say that Lantiq are involved.
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HighBeta

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Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
« Reply #26 on: April 08, 2015, 11:58:25 PM »

 infineon ifx_cpe_control_init.sh does catch the eye.....
« Last Edit: April 09, 2015, 12:51:40 AM by HighBeta »
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boost

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Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
« Reply #27 on: April 09, 2015, 06:48:38 AM »

I havent read the specs or links, but if you are referring to the type of vectoring that is performed at the dslam then yes.

The ECI M41's can only do so at line card level. 
The Huaweis at system/shelf level, but I believe they need to install another module into the cabs.

The later is far more efficient.
Seems like BT bought a bit of a dud with the ECI's.  I keep hoping that ECI can find some way of slotting in a module rather than having to replace with a V41.

The Huawei kit needs installation of a Vectoring Processing Engine - basically a card that crunches telemetry supplied by the line cards then sends back the required noise cancellation parameters.

The bottleneck on the ECIs is the backplane, hence the need for a new chassis. The alternative would be to replace all the line cards with cards with their own optical interfaces then connect all the line cards together either directly or via an intermediate card.

The Huawei devices also offer node level vectoring where 2 VPEs are connected via a 40Gb cross-connect with telemetry between cabinets being exchanged on that path.

That 40Gb is required should also give some idea of the backplane capacity needed to do system level vectoring, too.

Interesting, thanks :)
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kitz

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Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
« Reply #28 on: April 09, 2015, 11:10:37 AM »

/etc/init.d/ifx_cpe_control_init.sh
#197
xTM_Mgmt_Mode=""
        wanphy_phymode=0:
        BS_ENA=1
        SRA_ENA=1
+++ RETX_ENA=1 ++++      
         CNTL_MODE_ENA=0
         CNTL_MODE=0


Taken from ITU G.998.4 -  The RE-TX modes that can be set on the DSLAM

Quote
11.1.13 Retransmission Mode (RTX_MODE)
The RTX_MODE is a configuration parameter used to control activation of retransmission during initialization.
This parameter has 4 valid values:

0: RTX_FORBIDDEN: ITU-T G.998.4 retransmission not allowed.
1: RTX_PREFERRED: ITU-T G.998.4 retransmission is preferred by the operator.
(i.e., if ITU-T G.998.4 RTX capability is supported by both XTU's, the XTU's shall select ITU-T G.998.4 operation for this direction).
2: RTX_FORCED: Force the use of the ITU-T G.998.4 retransmission.
(i.e., if ITU-T G.998.4 RTX capability in this direction is not supported by both XTU's or not selected by the XTU's, an initialization failure shall result).
NOTE Due to the optionality of ITU-T G.998.4 retransmission in upstream direction, the use of RTX_FORCED in upstream may lead to initialization failure, even if the XTU is supporting ITU-T G.998.4 (in downstream).
3: RTX_TESTMODE: Force the use of the ITU-T G.998.4 retransmission in the test mode described in clause 10.4.
(i.e., if ITU-T G.998.4 RTX capability is not supported by both XTU's or not selected by the XTU's, an initialization failure shall result).


In there (Ive highlighted one of them in green) explanation why Modems that don't have the updated firmware would fail to get internet access and the ECI modem Issue 1 situation described on the first page.   So now the ECI modems apparently have RETX enabled, yet it doesnt seem to be able to fully support it?

Turning off DLM stops the DLM system trying to push RTX parameters to the modem which it cant understand, those parameters are used at initialisation to calculate the sync speed and bit loading etc and its why without the fix, the modem would not be able to go through all the stages of initialisation

----------
There's quite a nice paper I've found about RETX management.   Bear in mind its written by ASSIA so techniques may not be quite the same as with the BT system,  It recaps and confirms a few things we already knew but its written so that most people should be able to understand the basics of using RETX in a DLM environment.
http://www.assia-inc.com/products-services/pdf/DSL_Expresse_Retransmission.pdf

DLM can switch over to FEC & Interleave if it detects that ReTX isn't working/keeping the line stable. 
In the case of issue 2  RTX is preferred, but there are cases when it will push over to an Interleave & FEC DLM profile. 
------------

We already know that the system is pushing over to Interleave & FEC for non compliant modems but what is uncertain is if those parameters are too harsh OR  if its something in the DLM being interpreted unexpectedly by these modems. 

Is the 'hybrid solution' causing confusion.   The lines seeing the unexpected latency dont appear to be showing interleaving as having been applied when the ISP runs a line test and unfortunately we cannot see any decent line stats from those particular modems/routers to see exactly what has been applied to know whats going on for those modems.   This is where because of lack of decent stats we are going to have to leave it in the hands of those BT/Latniq bods that can access stats.    Out of interest is there anyone with a hacked ECI modem on a Huawei cab can see any of the usual parameters such as INP etc?

We know with INP we only had figures like INP=3 and by using other parameters such as interleaving depth, then the modem calculated how much Interleave and FEC to apply.  Whereas now we are seeing things like G.INP = 46.   What if its trying to put that say 46 parameter as Interleave & FEC (INP) protection.  46 INP is going to have a ludicrously high ms of noise protection.  Latency is going to rocket and Forward Error Correction overheads will reduce sync speeds dramatically. 
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jelv

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Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
« Reply #29 on: April 09, 2015, 01:35:11 PM »

Has anyone contacted http://www.increasebroadbandspeed.co.uk/g.inp to correct his errors? The one I spotted was that he says the HH5 works without differentiating 5A/5B.
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