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Author Topic: New Router syncs alot slower????  (Read 14253 times)

shmertmoans

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Re: New Router syncs alot slower????
« Reply #15 on: February 20, 2008, 09:50:46 PM »

>>> Say it is caused by spikes on my mains wiring, is this coimg through the power adaptor for router and onto adsl line?

The problem with REIN faults is that it can come from various sources..  it may not even be something in your own home.  Theres a list on that page of typical culprits (kindly provided by Ezzer)... but that list is by no means exhaustive :/


cheers,

yes just read that page as you were typing. good info. cheers.

defo switching heaters off tonight and will be buying one of these  surge protectors

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Ezzer

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Re: New Router syncs alot slower????
« Reply #16 on: February 20, 2008, 11:28:07 PM »

The worst thing about REIN faults is that they may not necessraily come from your property. Your mains cableing is shared with you neighbours an can act as an antennea broadcasting the inteference evenly no matter where the source is.

2 recent REIN faults I've had to work on were like that. The last one took 6 visits i the area before I could pinpoint which address it came from.

As for the cable from the micro filter to the router, this is a very small part of where you can pick up the interference, my previous post refered to a quick way of eliminating one aspect. Screened cables will never hurt.

As for the source of the interference, ANYTHING electical. The more energy it uses, the more likely it will become an issue. Previous sources I've found. transformers, central heating timer/switches, TV's. UPS units (several times), pc LCD screen, electric fan heater, Street lights, 500w halogen security light, TIG welding equipment, routers, x-mas lights 
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shmertmoans

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Re: New Router syncs alot slower????
« Reply #17 on: February 21, 2008, 08:43:30 AM »

I checked today and there were no nasty spikes/drops, i left heaters etc on.

Im thinking these could have been caused by the (lead up to) power cut. I had power cut at 7am so it couldve been noisy on the lead up to this.

I will just have to monitor it for the next wk or so.

Thanks
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kitz

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Re: New Router syncs alot slower????
« Reply #18 on: February 22, 2008, 07:30:45 AM »

>> I checked today and there were no nasty spikes/drops, i left heaters etc on.

Hopefully it has stabilised
.. although I'm not sure about the leading up to the powercut.. but then again Im not into electrics so couldnt really say Im afraid.
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mr_chris

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Re: New Router syncs alot slower????
« Reply #19 on: February 22, 2008, 09:30:20 AM »

Sometimes in the time before a power cut you get poor quality power and brief outages (brown-outs... when the lights will visibly dim for a second or so), which because of the cheap consumer-grade power transformers that are supplied with most pieces of electrical equipment, can cause havoc if the device is reliant on a nice steady voltage to operate properly.

So yeah, it's possible (in my mind anyway, but then again I'm no electrician) that your router dropped a few times in a short space of time just before the power cut or something, causing the line to appear unstable.

I don't understand how DLM works.. in fact I'm rapidly coming to the conclusion that it's buggy as hell, because there seems to be little consistency between different reports I've read on here and other forums of how it actually works. I myself had my SNR raised automatically even though my line was stable at 6db for months - and then after a small handful of resyncs it shot up to 9dB, then very quickly up to 12dB, again after just one or two resyncs whilst I was trying to time the sync just right to get the highest speed possible (no DMT tool tweaking for my DG834Gv2, you see).

And conversely I've seen cases where people have had to manually tweak their SNR UP because the DLM steadfastly refuses to increase from the default 6dB even though the line is dropping several times a day. Madness!

For people in your situation, there ought to be a route for ISPs to ask BT to get the target SNR reduced, no questions asked, if the user can give a legit reason for the unusual instability (i.e. factors other than phone line quality, e.g. power cut, new router, etc). But I doubt that'll happen anytime soon, I had hoped DLM would have been tweaked a bit better by now!
« Last Edit: February 22, 2008, 09:37:02 AM by mr_chris »
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shmertmoans

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Re: New Router syncs alot slower????
« Reply #20 on: February 27, 2008, 11:38:28 AM »

Sometimes in the time before a power cut you get poor quality power and brief outages (brown-outs... when the lights will visibly dim for a second or so), which because of the cheap consumer-grade power transformers that are supplied with most pieces of electrical equipment, can cause havoc if the device is reliant on a nice steady voltage to operate properly.

So yeah, it's possible (in my mind anyway, but then again I'm no electrician) that your router dropped a few times in a short space of time just before the power cut or something, causing the line to appear unstable.

I don't understand how DLM works.. in fact I'm rapidly coming to the conclusion that it's buggy as hell, because there seems to be little consistency between different reports I've read on here and other forums of how it actually works. I myself had my SNR raised automatically even though my line was stable at 6db for months - and then after a small handful of resyncs it shot up to 9dB, then very quickly up to 12dB, again after just one or two resyncs whilst I was trying to time the sync just right to get the highest speed possible (no DMT tool tweaking for my DG834Gv2, you see).

And conversely I've seen cases where people have had to manually tweak their SNR UP because the DLM steadfastly refuses to increase from the default 6dB even though the line is dropping several times a day. Madness!

For people in your situation, there ought to be a route for ISPs to ask BT to get the target SNR reduced, no questions asked, if the user can give a legit reason for the unusual instability (i.e. factors other than phone line quality, e.g. power cut, new router, etc). But I doubt that'll happen anytime soon, I had hoped DLM would have been tweaked a bit better by now!

thanks for reply.

yes it must have been due to the power cut/problem.

ive been watching routerstats and i dont get any nasty spikes, it only fluctuates by maybe around 1db.

the snr has also dropped to around 13db hence my sync going up to about 1800kbps. I just need the snr to get back to 6db or so and i should get my 2700kbps - 3000kbps i used to have.

wish i knew how to manually tweak snr on the netgear DG834 v4...i got the wrong router, need the GT model...dammit...if anybody knows a way id be greatful for the info....
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Ezzer

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Re: New Router syncs alot slower????
« Reply #21 on: February 27, 2008, 12:08:59 PM »

In theory one router should give similar results within 2-3 db to another.

Just one thing about surge protectors, if you suffer from power cuts or you notice say your  room lights often flickering then it's worth while investing in a surge protector for use with any thing that has delicate electronics. PC,s Modern TV's & dvd's etc.

I doubt if the surge protector would make any difference to the noise spikes you get, however by fluke you might get lucky.

And never rely on a surge protector for lightning protection, no matter what the manufacturer may say. The protector will give you a 50/50 chance with a lightning surge. If you get enough energy coming down the line it will go straight through the protector and cook whatever is at the end before it can do it's job if at all.
If there's a hint of thunder on it's way the only way to protect yourself is to physicaly unplug as much as possible from from both mains & telephony. Both can act like casting a big net so even if your house dosn't get hit, the cableing might bring a current back home

Ahh thats 3 things........ ::)
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kitz

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Re: New Router syncs alot slower????
« Reply #22 on: February 27, 2008, 07:55:31 PM »

>> i knew how to manually tweak snr on the netgear DG834 v4...i got the wrong router, need the GT model...dammit

The v4 is relatively new out therefore there isnt that much info about it yet...  but it is supposed to use the broadcom chipset similar to the GT.
Therefore (Im not sure on this) but you may be able to manually configure it using the following instructions as a guide?

http://www.kitz.co.uk/routers/dg834GT_targetsnr.htm

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Azzaka

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Re: New Router syncs alot slower????
« Reply #23 on: February 28, 2008, 08:52:15 AM »

You are right Kitz.

The new version4 does utilise the broadcom chipset. I would personally not recommend that anyone changed thier target SNR value. This is something that the BT servers should be able to set, and if you are not with BT then the LLU provider should set it with the DSLAM manually.

Azzaka
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MikeS

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Re: New Router syncs alot slower????
« Reply #24 on: February 28, 2008, 11:09:12 AM »

I would personally not recommend that anyone changed thier target SNR value.

In an ideal world you would be right.  But BT's DLM is far from an ideal world.  In my experience SNR margins can get bumped up for transient line issues.  Once they are up they never seem to come down again, which is frustrating.  It seems to be compounded by the lack of good communication channels between the ISP's and BTW, which would enable SNR margin changes to be made more rapidly. 
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Azzaka

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Re: New Router syncs alot slower????
« Reply #25 on: February 28, 2008, 02:25:26 PM »

...  But BT's DLM is far from an ideal world.  In my experience SNR margins can get bumped up for transient line issues.  Once they are up they never seem to come down again, which is frustrating...

The communication between BTW and the ISP can be arduous i agree with you completely. and can definitely be frustrating and disconcerting. My only point which i was trying to make and i realise now was not very clear, is that when you change the SNR it can cause a lot more issues with the line and cause BT systems to think that your line is stable when it isn't.

This from my point of view is a big issue and can be the cause of many a headache. Often the SNR does stay at the set target without moving. However if the line settles and you believe it can be set lower and still remain stable, you can ask for the 10 day training period to be restarted. This in effect will either leave the target SNR where it is or it will drop the SNR to a lower value giving you more speed without sacrificing stability.

When you try and manually set the SNR you can have adverse effects on your line, or you can even spend more time trying to keep the stability because you keep tweaking it.

I hope this is a little clearer, and I welcome any feedback.

Leo
« Last Edit: February 28, 2008, 02:27:31 PM by Azzaka »
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roseway

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Re: New Router syncs alot slower????
« Reply #26 on: February 28, 2008, 03:35:43 PM »

Yes, I do rather agree with you Azzaka. People need to realise that tools like DMT can't fix the target noise margin at a specific value, they can only offset the value set by the DLM process by a few dB. And if this results in the line becoming more unstable then DLM will increase the target noise margin still further.

DMT can have some practical use on a stable line. For example, sometimes a small tweak can get you up into the next IP profile band. But small tweaks like this are really all that should normally be applied, and it's probably better not to try at all with a connection which is at all unstable.
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mr_chris

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Re: New Router syncs alot slower????
« Reply #27 on: February 29, 2008, 12:16:28 PM »

Exactly... and if the DLM system worked in a more predictable way, and IP profiles updated at each sync rather than this stupid wait up to 5 days malarky, then we'd all probably be a bit more tolerant of it.

I bet there's probably more processing going on to determine whether to raise/lower the profile than there would be by simply resetting it everytime someone logs on!

Grr!
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Chris

kitz

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Re: New Router syncs alot slower????
« Reply #28 on: March 04, 2008, 03:40:26 AM »

yes... but think of how much bandwidth on the VP backhaul "gets saved" when someone has a low IPprofile. ;)

/cynic
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Ezzer

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Re: New Router syncs alot slower????
« Reply #29 on: March 04, 2008, 04:38:23 PM »

One way of looking at the DLM, rather like driving along and then discovering your going patches of ice, so you slow down, after a while you get more confident and speed up, but if you feel another patch if ice you get nevous and slow down again :-\

If the DLM has slowed things down then something has triggered this. With getting capped then the line becoming unstable chances are the DLM has noticed this the other way around.

Tweeking things TOO much as Azzaka stated; back too car in ice, it's like a passenger saying "go-on put your foot down" then planting their own foot hard on the accelerator  :lol:(oh I love my analogies :blush:
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