Kitz ADSL Broadband Information
adsl spacer  
Support this site
Home Broadband ISPs Tech Routers Wiki Forum
 
     
   Compare ISP   Rate your ISP
   Glossary   Glossary
 
Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  

News:

Pages: [1] 2 3

Author Topic: Experience with 63168 chipset modems c.f 6368 chipset modems  (Read 13281 times)

les-70

  • Kitizen
  • ****
  • Posts: 1254
Experience with 63168 chipset modems c.f 6368 chipset modems
« on: September 22, 2014, 08:29:25 PM »

 I have used a ZyXEL VMG8324, a Billion 8800NL, an HG630 and an Hg658B all with 63168 chipsets on my line.  The results and typical error rates differ.  I have compared them all with the HG612 which has the 6368 chipset with the 038 dsl driver.  The FTTC cabinet is ECI.  Each modem has been used in turn for periods of 1 day at least 5 times when the speed is capped but less times uncapped to avoid errors annoying the DLM

  For reference::  My line has consistently tolerated 3-4 resync per day with no DLM intervention.  My only DLM intervention occurred with the ZyXEL VMG8324 presumably due to its high error rate.  I do however usually have the speed capped to keep down error rates.  For comparison purposes. The minimum attainable seen on my line is 73Mb/s but for nearly two weeks now it has been 78Mb/s (speeds with HG612) ( someone on holiday I suspect)

   With Hg612 and no speed cap SNRM 6db -- average daily errored sec/hour is about 30-40 (with no thunderstorms).

   With the HG612 sync speed capped to give a SNRM of about 8db.  (typically a loss of 8Mb/s of the sync)-- average daily-- average daily errored sec/hour is about 10-15 (with no thunderstorms).

   With the HG612 sync speed capped to give a SNRM of about 9db.  (typically a loss of 12Mb/s of the sync) errored sec/hour is about 7-10 (with no thunderstorms).

    Results:----

 ZyXEL VMG8324 (with 039 dsl driver) gave attainable up by+ 4Mb/s but actual sync +2Mb/s but error rate about 4X HG612.  The factor of 4 persisted even if the ZyXEL and Hg612 were both speed capped to the same speed.  The XyXEL then reported a better SNRM +1db but still had X4 the errors. (The ZyXEL may have been faulty?)

 Billion 8800NL (with 039 dsl driver) gave attainable up by+ 4Mb/s but actual sync +2Mb/s but error rate about 1.5X HG612.  The factor of x1.5 persists even if the Billion and Hg612 are both speed capped to the same speed.  The Billion then reports a better SNRM +1db but still 1.5X the errors.

HG635 (from China) (with 037 dsl driver).  Gave attainable up by+ 2Mb/s but actual sync +1Mb/s but error rate about 2X HG612. The dsl drver has no speed cap option.

Hg658 ((from China) (with 037 dsl driver).  Gave attainable up by+ 1Mb/s but actual sync +1Mb/s but error rate about 1.5X HG612. The dsl driver has no speed cap option.


 


  I have concluded that HG612 is significantly better on my line with the Billion a second choice and of course an all in one.  It makes me wonder if the 6368 chipset deals better with noise giving errors.?


   I wonder if any others using the 63168 modems can look at their error stats in details c.f a HG612.  No two lines have the same short of noise and error issues so I wonder how general my finding are??
Logged

kitz

  • Administrator
  • Senior Kitizen
  • *
  • Posts: 33881
  • Trinity: Most guys do.
    • http://www.kitz.co.uk
Re: Experience with 63168 chipset modems c.f 6368 chipset modems
« Reply #1 on: September 22, 2014, 09:29:46 PM »

I think Ive mentioned it elsewhere, but will do so again here for completeness.  But I really cant see much difference between the 2 on my line when it comes to error rates. Possibly a tad less with the Zyxel but nothing worth any mention, Im talking perhaps a couple.

There is one difference between the two though that I have noticed and thats bit-swap.

If I used the HG612, then bitswap would more or less be static throughout the day.. and my graphs from the HG612 would form a fairly even line.
The shape on the Zyxel is entirely different, it does nothing for much of the day but will always peak in the evenings.

To show what I mean.
Logged
Please do not PM me with queries for broadband help as I may not be able to respond.
-----
How to get your router line stats :: ADSL Exchange Checker

les-70

  • Kitizen
  • ****
  • Posts: 1254
Re: Experience with 63168 chipset modems c.f 6368 chipset modems
« Reply #2 on: September 22, 2014, 09:52:04 PM »

   I had noticed the bitswap differences.   I wonder if the different experience I have is because your line has a lot less errors than mine in the first place.   Your syncing at 80/20 with about 8db SNRM and you look to have about 3-4 errored secs /hour c.f. the 10 -15 I would usually get with that value of SNRM.   The cause of my errors may also be noise with different characteristics, other than just size, to those on your line.  Hence the interest in a variety of user experiences.
Logged

kitz

  • Administrator
  • Senior Kitizen
  • *
  • Posts: 33881
  • Trinity: Most guys do.
    • http://www.kitz.co.uk
Re: Experience with 63168 chipset modems c.f 6368 chipset modems
« Reply #3 on: September 22, 2014, 10:35:19 PM »

As you say its possible that different types of noise affect differently.  Its a shame that noone could get the dsl_phy from the zyxels f/w to work on the HG612.

I dont see anything in my SNRm to indicate why I get that peak bitswap without fail each day, but I suppose its possible that theres something local to me which only affects a couple of tones to bitswap out and thereby insufficient to affect the overall SNRm average.  It is strange that it wasnt there on the HG612..  but then again the HG612 was constantly bitswapping so probably did a total of more swaps over the course of the day.  ???

Aside from the improved SNRm...  the bitswap pattern is the only difference I see.   

The broadcoms have always worked pretty well on this line.. and I get quite a lot more errors with a lantiq.. plus the SNRm tends to move a bit more.   
When I was testing the TPlink I discovered a bug on something and they sent me a tool which real time monitors the SNR in a graphical format so you see SNR shifting constantly.   It was quite interesting to note how much movement I constantly had in the evenings at around tone 250.   Which co-incidentally is where for a loooong time where Ive always maintained was crosstalk from adsl lines. Since weve been able to see QLN graphs,  sure enough theres the typical what I call the inverted shallow bowl that centers around my tone 225 which often identifies cross talk.

So whether most of the 'noise' that effects this line is crosstalk and not much from elsewhere.. who knows.

« Last Edit: September 22, 2014, 10:39:38 PM by kitz »
Logged
Please do not PM me with queries for broadband help as I may not be able to respond.
-----
How to get your router line stats :: ADSL Exchange Checker

kitz

  • Administrator
  • Senior Kitizen
  • *
  • Posts: 33881
  • Trinity: Most guys do.
    • http://www.kitz.co.uk
Re: Experience with 63168 chipset modems c.f 6368 chipset modems
« Reply #4 on: September 23, 2014, 09:39:34 PM »

@les - I just noticed today when looking at Aardvarks mydslwebstats for something else, that he also sees a similar increase in bitswap during the evenings, but pretty quiet during the day.  So obviously there does perhaps to be some difference in the way it handles bit-swap.
Logged
Please do not PM me with queries for broadband help as I may not be able to respond.
-----
How to get your router line stats :: ADSL Exchange Checker

Bald_Eagle1

  • Helpful
  • Kitizen
  • *
  • Posts: 2721
Re: Experience with 63168 chipset modems c.f 6368 chipset modems
« Reply #5 on: September 23, 2014, 10:53:36 PM »


If I used the HG612, then bitswap would more or less be static throughout the day.. and my graphs from the HG612 would form a fairly even line.
The shape on the Zyxel is entirely different, it does nothing for much of the day but will always peak in the evenings.



Were you still using an older firmware version when you generated the HG612 graphs?

My longer line than yours is obviously more susceptible to 'noise', but I saw a big difference in DS bitswapping after my HG612's firmware was updated.


The first 30 day graph is from before the firmware was updated (a year ago) & the 2nd shows 30 days back from this evening.

I believe all the newer type modems already include 'updated' firmwares, so that could explain some of the difference.

I reckon the significantly increased DS bitswapping (particularly in the evenings) has actually made connections more stable & in some cases allowed higher sync speeds as bitloading bins/tones are now swappable rather than being marked as unusable.

Logged

NewtronStar

  • Kitizen
  • ****
  • Posts: 4898
Re: Experience with 63168 chipset modems c.f 6368 chipset modems
« Reply #6 on: September 23, 2014, 11:00:28 PM »


I reckon the significantly increased DS bitswapping (particularly in the evenings) has actually made connections more stable & in some cases allowed higher sync speeds as bitloading bins/tones are now swappable rather than being marked as unusable.

I don't know BE1 having a few bins/tones during the evening RFI and they are not swapping they are marked as unused.
Logged

Bald_Eagle1

  • Helpful
  • Kitizen
  • *
  • Posts: 2721
Re: Experience with 63168 chipset modems c.f 6368 chipset modems
« Reply #7 on: September 23, 2014, 11:08:21 PM »

Perhaps I'm lucky & I don't experience the same amount of RFI as you do.

As Kitz mentioned, no two connections are identical & my comparison is only regarding (improved) changes in performance on my own connection.

I wonder if your connection would perform even worse in the evenings nowadays if you were still using the older firmware version  :-\

Logged

NewtronStar

  • Kitizen
  • ****
  • Posts: 4898
Re: Experience with 63168 chipset modems c.f 6368 chipset modems
« Reply #8 on: September 23, 2014, 11:36:50 PM »

Perhaps I'm lucky & I don't experience the same amount of RFI as you do.
no two connections are identical

That's the god dam truth BE1  :(
Logged

kitz

  • Administrator
  • Senior Kitizen
  • *
  • Posts: 33881
  • Trinity: Most guys do.
    • http://www.kitz.co.uk
Re: Experience with 63168 chipset modems c.f 6368 chipset modems
« Reply #9 on: September 24, 2014, 12:29:48 AM »

Yes BE I was using one of the older firmwares as Ive been using either the Zyxel or the TPlink for over 6 months now, so I never installed the latest HW's.

The 2 that I showed in the above caps were last full day with the HG612 and first full day with the Zyxel, just to rule out deterioration due to time and extra lines added to the cab. 
Logged
Please do not PM me with queries for broadband help as I may not be able to respond.
-----
How to get your router line stats :: ADSL Exchange Checker

kitz

  • Administrator
  • Senior Kitizen
  • *
  • Posts: 33881
  • Trinity: Most guys do.
    • http://www.kitz.co.uk
Re: Experience with 63168 chipset modems c.f 6368 chipset modems
« Reply #10 on: September 26, 2014, 11:27:45 AM »


If I used the HG612, then bitswap would more or less be static throughout the day.. and my graphs from the HG612 would form a fairly even line.
The shape on the Zyxel is entirely different, it does nothing for much of the day but will always peak in the evenings.

Were you still using an older firmware version when you generated the HG612 graphs?

My longer line than yours is obviously more susceptible to 'noise', but I saw a big difference in DS bitswapping after my HG612's firmware was updated.

Kind of a double post with here, but I feel its relevant in this thread too as I know les-70 is monitoring differences between the 2 chipsets.

@ BE, Ive just noticed when looking at Ronski's stats that he also displays the peak evening bitswap.  I attach below a copy so you can see how it changes on his line compared to the HG612.

@ Les-70 - thought you may be interested in his error rate with the Zyxel which got put on 5 days ago.  Ive included a month because thats a period where hes been on the same DLM profile.   Ronski's DLM profile has decreased today so I wouldn't be surprised to see more Errors this evening.
You can see that for the past 5 days his error rate has perhaps increased by a couple per night.. but based over the full month it doesn't appear to be performing noticeably worse than the HG612.   He's got an increased sync speed of approx 2.5Mb using the Zyxel (44414 -v- 41880)
Logged
Please do not PM me with queries for broadband help as I may not be able to respond.
-----
How to get your router line stats :: ADSL Exchange Checker

les-70

  • Kitizen
  • ****
  • Posts: 1254
Re: Experience with 63168 chipset modems c.f 6368 chipset modems
« Reply #11 on: September 26, 2014, 12:10:25 PM »

  Thanks for pointing that out.  It does look as though Ronski's error rate in the last 5 days may have increased by at least as much as the x1.5 I find with 8800NL.  It is hard to judge from the plots especially when it has gaps due the computer not running.  The error rates don't however look big enough to bother about.  When sync uses the extra sync speeds from 63168 I would be inclined to forgive the error rate as consequence of the extra speed.  However it is getting the same error rate increase when the sync speed is capped, and 63168 gives instead a higher snmr, that disappoints me.

 I wonder if mydsl webstats could have the option to average error rate stats between resyncs.  I may make a suggestion in the mydslwebstats thread. 

    Could you post a plot of your bitswaps per tone some time? I wonder if that over 24 hours would give an indication of differences the line characteristic.   i don't have an old one and will post one here this evening when dslstats has collected a longer sample.  I can say in advance that most of my bitswapping is in the D3 band
Logged

kitz

  • Administrator
  • Senior Kitizen
  • *
  • Posts: 33881
  • Trinity: Most guys do.
    • http://www.kitz.co.uk
Re: Experience with 63168 chipset modems c.f 6368 chipset modems
« Reply #12 on: September 26, 2014, 12:17:03 PM »

Here you go :)

Logged
Please do not PM me with queries for broadband help as I may not be able to respond.
-----
How to get your router line stats :: ADSL Exchange Checker

Chrysalis

  • Content Team
  • Addicted Kitizen
  • *
  • Posts: 7382
  • VM Gig1 - AAISP L2TP
Re: Experience with 63168 chipset modems c.f 6368 chipset modems
« Reply #13 on: September 26, 2014, 12:22:34 PM »

my bitswap goes up and down day to evening also but not much of a swing.

The amount of bitswapping from line to line is related to the noise its having to deal with, check 60 day history on my line and can see clear difference from old pair to new.

Now my US bitswap is pretty much 0, and my DS bitswap has reduced on the new pair.

I also expect if I had a short E side like kitz so got to use full power on D1, I would have much lower DS error rates and as such lower DS bitswaps.
Logged

les-70

  • Kitizen
  • ****
  • Posts: 1254
Re: Experience with 63168 chipset modems c.f 6368 chipset modems
« Reply #14 on: September 26, 2014, 01:19:27 PM »

  I attach a current 8800NL (038 dsl driver) bit swap per tone.  Since I am in standby mode a lot I think the count is rather less than it should be.  The total is probably best deduced from the bitswaps per min anyway.    I would say I would my line/modem is a significantly busier swapping in D3 than yours, I recall seeing D3 a lot busier in the evening.  That also "seems" to be where the 63168 gains most of its extra bit load on my line.  It is possible that with respect to the different modem error behavior, the significant line difference between us is extra noise fluctuations in D3.
Logged
Pages: [1] 2 3