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[Chrysalis]

Ok so I think I have a HR fault.

I can repeatedly drop my upstream snrm down from 9db+ to under 3db simply by turning on my landline phone dialtone.  Its not immediate but I get a largish drop of about 3db after about 5 seconds, then it moves down further slowly/gradually from there until it hits about 3db.  The downstream snrm also drops but not by such a huge amount, its about 1-1.5db on the downstream.  I am pretty sure if it wasnt for my buffer on my upstream (attainable of 27mbit currently) then the line probably would be dropping out during calls.

BT will assume I dont have access to line stats so the fact the excess snrm is somewhat hiding the fault I guess they will try to tell me nothing is wrong.

The path I plan to take is probably this.

Report as a broadband HR fault, evidence been the dropping snrm during calls, (since hh5 now reports this info I can do so without worrying about a unlocked modem).  I insist on engineer visit, I agree to pay fees if no fault, but I will only accept no fault if the following are true.

All joints physically checked and ok.
Junction box physically checked and ok.
Tie pair physically checked and ok.
DP physically checked and ok.
NTE5 swapped out and no improvement.
Pair swap carried out and has gave no improvement.
Lift and shift carried out and has gave no improvement.

I am aware all the above takes time but the fee's charged are high and so as such I am paying for all that to be done.

If all the above done with nothing showing I will agree to pay fee, I think I am been reasonable as BT cant reasonably prove no fault if they not checking everything, I dont consider a JDSU remote test as extensive diagnosis.

any thoughts before I report my problem?

[Black Sheep]

Yeah …… you haven't a hope in hell of getting that exhaustive list fulfilled.

Don't worry, I do understand the frustration involved in trying to get a fault resolved, especially a tiny one like yours. But, I'm only here to give you the benefit of my experience.

You need to first choose which path you are going to take, to report your fault ? Network, or Broadband ?
If it's Network, then (as with all reports), they will run a line test that I'm guessing will pass with flying colours, going off the symptoms of your fault. They will then read the script about potential charges. You accept, and they proceed to build a CDTA (Concsious Decision To Appoint) task.

The criteria laid out for this type of task is …... we perform a PQT, we perform an Eclipse/Fast Test, if these both pass and no audible noise is heard on the line, then it's goodbye and you get the bill. No amount of protestation about SNRm fluctuations will cut the mustard. If it is a CDTA task, that's all we are empowered to do.

If you go down the broadband path, you really are in the lap of the gods as to what engineer you get and what they are prepared to accept as an 'issue' with your circuit. They will have to run the mandatory PQT and Eclipse/Fast Test, but can also run a 'DSL Close-out test' ) for 5 or 15 mins), that pings data about for the allotted time looking for errors. If all 3 tests pass, then again I would guess your ISP will throw the bill for work done, your way ??

This may sound harsh, but it's not meant in that manner. All patches have a couple of, how shall I say it …. Konrado's. Chasing down ridiculous fluctuations that are basically part of the systems management tool. I'm not saying this is you, Chrysalis, but there HAS to be a cut-off point where we say the line is performing within expectations. This is a generalisation, and you may well have a decent HR-type fault brewing, I'm just putting over our remit, as agreed with all the ISP's and Ofcom, as you asked for views before you go ahead and report.

By way of a PS ……… if you do go ahead, I think you'd get more bang for your buck if you go down the broadband path. If you do, request that the engineer use 'Quiet Line Test' and also ring your landline whilst the circuit is undergoing the DSL Close-out test. If there is a HR, then chances are the errors will increment under this particular 'loading' test ??

[Chrysalis]

So to be clear on this its within BTs expectations for snrm to drop during calls by the equivelent of what is about 15mmbit of US sync speed of signal?

Also there is in my opinion audible noise present on the line also.  If I do a QLN test using my handset.  As well as the hiss noise there is clicking noises.

I appreciate you laying out BTs internal policies, of course as a customer this isnt in my t&c's.  The t&c's simply state if no fault found I can be charged, on a legal ground generally for that to be upheld would require proper extensive diagnosis, in other words more then likely BT would drop charges if I took it to a high level.  So I am not that concerned on that side of things, but more about forcing the tests to be carried out which I suspect will be very diffilcult as you said.

The net is littered with stories about people passing JDSU tests and then engineers proceeding to find faults when digging further.  I guess this is what you mean by been in the lap of gods as to whether an engineer chooses to ignore test results or not.

[c6em]

Its worse than that - getting BT to accept a fault
About 6 months ago I had a no dial tone fault with associated appalling broadband
Checked at master socket and with different phone: same result
So this is most likely a single line of the pair disconnected.

I ring the BT call centre
They test the line:- Line Test OK - there is no fault sir
Oh really I reply - then why is there no dial tone?

Ah, yes, well, ummm, errrr, do you want us to send an engineer
(Skip the bit about how I will be charged if it is my equipment)

Engineer arrives
What seems to be the problem sir?
(Clearly the BT engineer has been told nothing and has done no checks on the line at the exchange)
Well there is no dial tone I reply
Gets out his BT test phone - checks - indeed there is no dial tone
Ah, yes, mmmmmm

...and the fault
yes, single line dis' in the PCP
I despair!

[Black Sheep]

To be clear …… I've never received, seen, discussed, been witness to …….. any form of communication that lays out SNRm parameters, in either its dormant, or active state, with regards to landline usage. So I can't inform you what BT expectations are.

I don't need to go any deeper as to the calibre of engineer you may end up with, it's been done to death and we all know the problems. But, yes, the PQT/Eclipse are not the ultimate conclusive test of a fault present. Although, they are the agreed and defined parameters to which we are tasked to work to. It really is down to whether the fault is present when 'we' are on-site. If it isn't, but raises its ugly head again after we've left, then raise another fault. Painful ?? Yes. But it will get to a stage where the fault will be present whilst we are there, and can then be rectified. All previous visits, however many, can then be written off in terms of billing issues.

Just like spurious faulting techniques littering the net, I'm sure there's probably quite a few 'Konrado's' knocking around as well ?? That's why there are defined parameters in which to test to. Most faults will be captured using these systems, others might need a few more visits before success can be claimed.

If you are adamant you have audible noise on the line, then go for it, raise a network fault.

[Black Sheep]

Its worse than that - getting BT to accept a fault
About 6 months ago I had a no dial tone fault with associated appalling broadband
Checked at master socket and with different phone: same result
So this is most likely a single line of the pair disconnected.

I ring the BT call centre
They test the line:- Line Test OK - there is no fault sir
Oh really I reply - then why is there no dial tone?

Ah, yes, well, ummm, errrr, do you want us to send an engineer
(Skip the bit about how I will be charged if it is my equipment)

Engineer arrives
What seems to be the problem sir?
(Clearly the BT engineer has been told nothing and has done no checks on the line at the exchange)
Well there is no dial tone I reply
Gets out his BT test phone - checks - indeed there is no dial tone
Ah, yes, mmmmmm

...and the fault
yes, single line dis' in the PCP
I despair!

Unless he was actually in the Exchange at the time of picking your fault up, he would have no reason to go to the Exchange to test your line. If the remote systems have shown your line to be a 'LTOK', then the most obvious place to start is the EU's premises. As mooted many times before, the remote line test systems quite often won't 'see' a HR, and will return 'LTOK'.

[Mark1]

Unless the fault is obvious, I wouldn't bother reporting it.

I have a similar fault, SNRM dropping with phone use and intermittent phone noise, although I am also getting related dsl diconnects which is adding to the noise i.e. making the phone very noisy. Reported as a broadband fault as I was concerned the intermittent noise may not be detected and a charge raised. Broadband engineer duly arrived and did some tests which came back normal, as far as I know, which isn't surprising as the fault only occurs with phone use. Fortunately by this time the noise and disconnects were obvious and the engineer proceeded to unsuccessfully look for the fault between my house and exchange.

[ryant704]

You will only be charged if there is a problem with your equipment. Even if they turn up to your house perform all there tests and they pass, they then checked your equipment is setup correctly. They leave and report it back to your ISP (BT I pressume), your ISP doesn't have the right to charge you. You would only occur the charge if there is a problem with your equipment, I've had a good 5 - 10 engineers turn up who have turned performed the tests and gone. Not once Have I been charged this is because my equipment is absolutely fine and I'm not causing the problem. If the problem isn't with you BT are under a legal obligation to pay for the visit even if the fault wasn't fixed or found.

As BS mentioned it highly depends on the engineer you get, I now know a good majority of good engineers in my area because the amount of times they have had to come out. Also one of the engineers was profounded you could see line stats from the modem. I explained you could unlock the modem and use software/scripts to plot data into graphs if you wish. After a few more different engineer visits I got the same one who was good friends with the chief of the area I live in and he came round with him. Who was also shocked you could get line stats from the modem, they then gave me a HG612 which I showed them how to unlock. If i get one of these engineers I know now they will perform the tests required to mark the job as completed then complete any work I wish to be done to my line without question. This comes down to engineers either enjoy/respect there job to go and find the fault if the tests fail, the others just want the easy money.

[Chrysalis]

ryan the policies have changed, it used to be charge if EU equipment fault found.  Now its charge if no fault found 'or' EU equipment fault found.

As I said tho I am not concerned about the charge as BT would never uphold it when pushed.  But more so i planned to use me paying the charge as bait to make BT do some proper work.  I suspect if given the choice 1 - quick JDSU test no charge or 2 - extensive diagnosis 2+ hours checking joints etc. but I pay fee (if no fault found), BT choose #1 every time.

I am pretty sure there is noise and not only noise but a HR fault (unless something else can lower snrm during calls), bear in mind lowering snrm during calls is the same thing as dropping connections during calls except its harder to notice, both are the same thing snrm lowers, except when the connection drops its because its ran out of snrm to maintain the connection.

I think what I will try to do before reporting is leave an upload going and start a call, to see if the throughput is actually affected.

[Chrysalis]

Ok BT have found a fault remotely but it was kind of funny.

I rang them up on my mobile, and the test passed, so I ended the call and rang back using my landline meaning the line would be in use.  This time the test failed, but the guy said he doesnt know what the failure message is as he never seen it before on any other line so I have been escalated and awaiting a call back.  He wouldnt tell me what the error is.

[Mark1]

Ryan,

Black Sheep pretty much states above that Openreach charges if no fault found. I would have thought that most of these charges do get passed onto the customer by the isp including BT retail.

[Mark1]

Chrysalis,

I didn't know a remote test could be carried out on a line when in use?

[Chrysalis]

Call centre ran a test whilst I was on the phone, so I guess yes.

Also its possible to even do tests on BT's website whilst in use but I dont think is as good as tech support tests.

Anyway I have an engineer appointment arranged now for 2nd week of december.

In regards to charges yes BT retail will most of the time likely pass on charges by default unless the visit is done by the exec office (then its waived by default) but the charges are weak legally since the t&c's state in vague terms if no fault is found, in a court of law a judge isnt going to accept a quick jdsu test as proof of no fault so it would be a no brainer result, and BT wouldnt let it go that far either, they would bail out and drop the charge,.

BTr would still be paying openreach,we have to consider openreach's contract with BTr is completely irrelevant to BT's contract with the end user.

[Black Sheep]

Chrysalis,

I didn't know a remote test could be carried out on a line when in use?

A remote PSTN test can not be carried out whilst the landline is in use. A WHOOSH VDSL/ADSL test can be run when the landline is in use. 

[Mark1]

I somehow managed to get through to technical support in Milton Keynes. What a difference! My faith in BT has been restored.