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Author Topic: New VDSL plate  (Read 60748 times)

Black Sheep

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Re: New VDSL plate
« Reply #15 on: October 18, 2013, 02:55:11 PM »

AlecR ................ way, way, way too far for your job to land on my laptop. Hope you get a result ?!  :)
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GigabitEthernet

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Re: New VDSL plate
« Reply #16 on: October 18, 2013, 03:01:47 PM »

Me too, me too.
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Black Sheep

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Re: New VDSL plate
« Reply #17 on: October 18, 2013, 03:19:30 PM »

black sheep I am still intrigued by "faulty ports".

As I understand an engineer to do a port swap (lift and shift) has to swap the tie pair, because they have no access to the fTTC cabinet.  So these are been diagnosed as faulty ports, but it could be a bad tie pair?

Doesnt it sound odd that these cabinets which are of course expensive would have failing ports at such a high rate?

How do you normally diagnose a bad port, what are the signs?  You noticed my posts lately showing a weakened D1 signal? which is the frequency under very low attenuation.

A local engineer diagnosed my issue as bad pairs rather than faulty ports.  It seems tho he could have easily diagnosed it as bad ports instead.

If you diagnosing 1 a week bad you will eventually run out of ports in 2 years :)

Chrysallis

Your assumptions are bob-on. Even if it's just the actual tie-pair that is faulty, we have to be provided with a brand new port (Lift & Shift).
On a couple of occasions, I've been on-site at a notoriously 'bad Cab', when one of the PCR Engineers turns up. His remit will be to have a look at a handful of 'Faulty ports' that have been given to him, and he will then determine if it is actual ports at fault, or actually just poorly terminated cables/split-pairs ?

You ask how we diagnose a bad port ?? Very basic, crude techniques really. We certainly won't go viewing individual band-plans as a normal practice, (don't shoot the messenger -- shoot those that dictate what we are told to do and how long we have to do it in)  :no:.
In simple terms, a 'bad port' will only be diagnosed as such for a relatively few types of instance. A) No synch, B) Extreme errors, C) Dropping connection, D) No PPP Session (if the 'build' on both Openreach and BTw's sides, are correct). There may be something else, but off the top of my head, I can't think of anything else ??

I, and probably many other engineers, have visited EU's that have had 20-30 engineering visits and no fault can be found. Some of these visits will have seen tests done to 'Precision Test Officers' standards (X-Talk - Impulse Noise etc), but still the DLM will drop the speed on a daily basis, after a reset.
I have personally (along with another frustrated engineer), been involved with two such cases, and both were what you would call long'ish lines. By the time we'd finished over the months, the EU's had basically had a new circuit spun from gold, but still the same DLM action would see the speeds drop day in, day out.
Only by arguing vociferously with our colleagues at the NGA helpdesk, did we manage to get 'New ports' issued on both circuits. We have not (touch bl00dy wood), heard from either of them since !!!

Point I'm labouring to make is, maybe it was a very miniscule weak connection on the tie-pairs having some affect on the band-plans ?? Or, maybe it was indeed a faulty VDSL port that to all intents and purposes, tested absolutely fine with all we would chuck at it ??

In closing, to get a 'Lift & Shift' done on ADSL is hard, but on VDSL it's easier to get an audience with the Pope. They certainly aren't done lightly.  :) 
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Darren

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Re: New VDSL plate
« Reply #18 on: October 18, 2013, 04:47:38 PM »

In addition, a filter has been provided to add resistance to Repetitive Electrical Interference (REIN).

Wouldn't a filter restrict the usable frequencies aswell as block unwanted ones? Thus lowering your speed whether you have REIN issues or not. In which case the MK2 would only be supplied to lines suffering REIN?

Also the speed estimates dropped for all lines not long back for seemingly no reason, maybe the reason is to factor in the loss from these MK2 faceplates.. if there is indeed a loss.

RE where to get one from, a few places other than ebay sell the "MK1", maybe they will stock the MK2 in time aswell. I bought a spare just over a year ago from pcslshop, Clarity and run-it-direct also have them.
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Black Sheep

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Re: New VDSL plate
« Reply #19 on: October 18, 2013, 04:57:28 PM »

They certainly increase attenuation, when fitted.  :)
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GigabitEthernet

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Re: New VDSL plate
« Reply #20 on: October 18, 2013, 05:00:23 PM »

In addition, a filter has been provided to add resistance to Repetitive Electrical Interference (REIN).

Wouldn't a filter restrict the usable frequencies aswell as block unwanted ones? Thus lowering your speed whether you have REIN issues or not. In which case the MK2 would only be supplied to lines suffering REIN?

Also the speed estimates dropped for all lines not long back for seemingly no reason, maybe the reason is to factor in the loss from these MK2 faceplates.. if there is indeed a loss.

RE where to get one from, a few places other than ebay sell the "MK1", maybe they will stock the MK2 in time aswell. I bought a spare just over a year ago from pcslshop, Clarity and run-it-direct also have them.

Hasn't changed the attenuation on my line, nor has it reduced my sync speed.
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Chrysalis

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Re: New VDSL plate
« Reply #21 on: October 18, 2013, 05:10:24 PM »

black sheep I am still intrigued by "faulty ports".

As I understand an engineer to do a port swap (lift and shift) has to swap the tie pair, because they have no access to the fTTC cabinet.  So these are been diagnosed as faulty ports, but it could be a bad tie pair?

Doesnt it sound odd that these cabinets which are of course expensive would have failing ports at such a high rate?

How do you normally diagnose a bad port, what are the signs?  You noticed my posts lately showing a weakened D1 signal? which is the frequency under very low attenuation.

A local engineer diagnosed my issue as bad pairs rather than faulty ports.  It seems tho he could have easily diagnosed it as bad ports instead.

If you diagnosing 1 a week bad you will eventually run out of ports in 2 years :)

Chrysallis

Your assumptions are bob-on. Even if it's just the actual tie-pair that is faulty, we have to be provided with a brand new port (Lift & Shift).
On a couple of occasions, I've been on-site at a notoriously 'bad Cab', when one of the PCR Engineers turns up. His remit will be to have a look at a handful of 'Faulty ports' that have been given to him, and he will then determine if it is actual ports at fault, or actually just poorly terminated cables/split-pairs ?

You ask how we diagnose a bad port ?? Very basic, crude techniques really. We certainly won't go viewing individual band-plans as a normal practice, (don't shoot the messenger -- shoot those that dictate what we are told to do and how long we have to do it in)  :no:.
In simple terms, a 'bad port' will only be diagnosed as such for a relatively few types of instance. A) No synch, B) Extreme errors, C) Dropping connection, D) No PPP Session (if the 'build' on both Openreach and BTw's sides, are correct). There may be something else, but off the top of my head, I can't think of anything else ??

I, and probably many other engineers, have visited EU's that have had 20-30 engineering visits and no fault can be found. Some of these visits will have seen tests done to 'Precision Test Officers' standards (X-Talk - Impulse Noise etc), but still the DLM will drop the speed on a daily basis, after a reset.
I have personally (along with another frustrated engineer), been involved with two such cases, and both were what you would call long'ish lines. By the time we'd finished over the months, the EU's had basically had a new circuit spun from gold, but still the same DLM action would see the speeds drop day in, day out.
Only by arguing vociferously with our colleagues at the NGA helpdesk, did we manage to get 'New ports' issued on both circuits. We have not (touch bl00dy wood), heard from either of them since !!!

Point I'm labouring to make is, maybe it was a very miniscule weak connection on the tie-pairs having some affect on the band-plans ?? Or, maybe it was indeed a faulty VDSL port that to all intents and purposes, tested absolutely fine with all we would chuck at it ??

In closing, to get a 'Lift & Shift' done on ADSL is hard, but on VDSL it's easier to get an audience with the Pope. They certainly aren't done lightly.  :) 

thanks for the insightful post :)

so every so often a guy comes out and audits the ports marked as bad and they are either marked as ok for reuse or I guess fixed if actually bad so the number of bad ports doesnt eventually fill up the cabinet :)
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Black Sheep

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Re: New VDSL plate
« Reply #22 on: October 18, 2013, 05:14:57 PM »

Absolutely right. Once the amount of diagnosed faulty ports reaches 'x', then I'm guessing a card change is next on the cards ??
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Black Sheep

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Re: New VDSL plate
« Reply #23 on: October 18, 2013, 05:17:23 PM »

Hasn't changed the attenuation on my line, nor has it reduced my sync speed.

Hmm, weird ?? I've not used the MK2 yet, but I imagined that there was some kind of 'coil' in place, like an RF3 filter ?? No doubt B*Cat, or one of the other techy's can enlighten us ?? :)
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burakkucat

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Re: New VDSL plate
« Reply #24 on: October 18, 2013, 06:44:50 PM »

. . . a card change is next on the cards ??

An appropriate, unintentional pun methinks!  ;D
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Black Sheep

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Re: New VDSL plate
« Reply #25 on: October 18, 2013, 06:46:56 PM »

lol ..... yes indeedy !! Typed whilst in between making ones chow for me and t'missus.  ;D
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burakkucat

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Re: New VDSL plate
« Reply #26 on: October 18, 2013, 07:02:58 PM »

I've not used the MK2 yet, but I imagined that there was some kind of 'coil' in place, like an RF3 filter ?? No doubt B*Cat, or one of the other techy's can enlighten us ?? :)

I agree with the speculation that there will probably be components akin to an RF3 incorporated into the design. I feel a few tingles (via my whiskers) that the common-mode rejection circuitry has probably been enhanced to a somewhat higher specification. Not yet having seen an image of a MK2, it is all just guess-work.

As can be seen from the image of the MK1, attached below, there is some significant design to the low-pass filtering circuitry of those devices.

We really could do with a friendly and tame 'Grimbledon Down wizard' to join discussions such as this.
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Black Sheep

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Re: New VDSL plate
« Reply #27 on: October 18, 2013, 08:02:33 PM »

Curiosity got the better of me !! Best I can do for now.
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neilius

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Re: New VDSL plate
« Reply #28 on: October 18, 2013, 08:38:26 PM »

Looks like a choke in the bottom right corner...
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burakkucat

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Re: New VDSL plate
« Reply #29 on: October 19, 2013, 01:58:21 AM »

Curiosity got the better of me !! Best I can do for now.

Must try harder! Your inquisitiveness is clearly not up to feline standards.  :P
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