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Author Topic: A simple(ton's:-\) question on bit swap graphs  (Read 8793 times)

renluop

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A simple(ton's:-\) question on bit swap graphs
« on: October 05, 2013, 06:40:30 AM »

 What info about a connection can be gathered from the graphs' patterns over a few days. say? I've noticed the patterns can be very variable.
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Bald_Eagle1

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Re: A simple(ton's:-\) question on bit swap graphs
« Reply #1 on: October 05, 2013, 07:47:09 AM »

This explains bitswapping:-

http://www.kitz.co.uk/adsl/adsl_technology.htm#bit_swapping

What do your bitswap graphs look like?

I have attached mine over a 4 day period as an example.

There's a clear pattern at 'noisier' periods (around 8pm to midnight & this morning a little more US bitswapping than usual after 4am).

 

The 4th example is from another user's connection where US bitswapping (unusually) more or less swamps the DS bitswapping.

« Last Edit: October 05, 2013, 08:05:43 AM by Bald_Eagle1 »
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Bald_Eagle1

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Re: A simple(ton's:-\) question on bit swap graphs
« Reply #2 on: October 05, 2013, 07:58:50 AM »

Just to add to my previous message, the other user (also unusually) sees a lot more US errored seconds than DS errored seconds & often sees dips in US SNRM when the phone rings.

That suggests a slight HR issue at US frequencies to me, but not sufficient to actually cause the connection to drop.


The examples are from VDSL2 connections, but the principle is the same as for ADSL connections.

« Last Edit: October 05, 2013, 08:01:46 AM by Bald_Eagle1 »
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renluop

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Re: A simple(ton's:-\) question on bit swap graphs
« Reply #3 on: October 05, 2013, 06:39:11 PM »

See attachment of some taken when errors were low, and some when very much not so. Also incl is the graph of a massive upstream dip and recovery of SNRM this morning, where upstream sync also fell. Edit: Fwiw over he period of the SNR glitch DSL event log reported that no data was received

I know it all may be to do with noise, but as the substation is supposedly recently attended to, I am not so convinced.
Interleaving is up and down like a yo-yo and downstream margin target seems to be an odd ~7.5 dB.

Apart from noise, is there anything else that might be the cause of the erratics.....router (TG582N) playing up....overheating. The base feels warm having been on from late last night to now, but not uncomfortably so. i Have a TG 585 v7 I could try.
« Last Edit: October 05, 2013, 10:37:03 PM by renluop »
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Bald_Eagle1

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Re: A simple(ton's:-\) question on bit swap graphs
« Reply #4 on: October 06, 2013, 09:21:59 AM »

I'm not at all familiar with ADSL connection stats & their effects, only getting involved in detail with VDSL2 connection stats, so I don't know what would be classed as 'normal' for ADSL connections.


Hopefully, an ADSL user may be able to provide some stats/graphs for comparison purposes.


Without being able to also see 'other' error graphs etc. it's hard to say if the bitswapping is an issue or actually proof that noise fluctuations etc. are being adequately dealt with as intended.

Eric may be able to comment on the no data received message in the DSLStats log, but it does appear that various values have been plotted in the graph.

You mention that Interleaving is up & down like a yo-yo.
That suggests to me that the connection resyncs regularly via DLM intervention or that the router is turned off/on on a regular basis.
From what I can gather, DLM stores the latest 30 days worth of connection history & uses these details to determine interleaving depth etc. at the next resync.

I wonder if it would be possible to set the DSLStats window (time per page) to 24 hours rather than 2 hours & keep the connection & logging live for a while.
Doing that might just identify 'problem' times & patterns may emerge over a period of time (either time related or maybe even weather related).


It may well be worth trying an alternative router for a while, if only to eliminate the router itself as a potential cause.

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roseway

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Re: A simple(ton's:-\) question on bit swap graphs
« Reply #5 on: October 06, 2013, 10:15:03 AM »

Quote
Eric may be able to comment on the no data received message in the DSLStats log, but it does appear that various values have been plotted in the graph.

The "No data received" log entry applies only to an individual sample. It just means that for some reason the program was unable to collect that sample, possibly because the router was busy on other tasks at the time and didn't respond to the CLI command. This is a fairly common occurrence with some routers.

BE1's suggestion to set the time per page to 24 hours and leaving it running all day sounds a good one, as it may reveal patterns which aren't obvious over a shorter timescale.
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renluop

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Re: A simple(ton's:-\) question on bit swap graphs
« Reply #6 on: October 06, 2013, 01:44:17 PM »

I shall set the graphs to 24 hours. The computer is turned off usually overnight, but the router kept running 24/7.
I take the point about "no data received", but the fact that it happened when the ?substantia? dip in u/s SNRM occured dif seem it might be worthwhile mentioning.

Had a resync in the early hours. Abbrev. example of telnet on 5th and today is attached as well to illustrate how the interleave and u/s sync fluctuates.
Today's bitswap graph is entirely different ( att).
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renluop

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Re: A simple(ton's:-\) question on bit swap graphs
« Reply #7 on: October 06, 2013, 02:58:29 PM »

Re 24 hr graphs; what sample interval do you recommend? Currently it's 30 secs.
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roseway

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Re: A simple(ton's:-\) question on bit swap graphs
« Reply #8 on: October 06, 2013, 03:20:47 PM »

I suggest that you make it 60 seconds.
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  Eric

renluop

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Re: A simple(ton's:-\) question on bit swap graphs
« Reply #9 on: October 06, 2013, 08:52:26 PM »

Further bitswap graph added
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Bald_Eagle1

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Re: A simple(ton's:-\) question on bit swap graphs
« Reply #10 on: October 06, 2013, 09:22:49 PM »

That shows the bitswaps per tone.

How does the bitswaps per minute graph look?

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renluop

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Re: A simple(ton's:-\) question on bit swap graphs
« Reply #11 on: October 06, 2013, 10:23:38 PM »

Router 582N and so bitswaps per minute option is greyed out :(
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roseway

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Re: A simple(ton's:-\) question on bit swap graphs
« Reply #12 on: October 06, 2013, 10:38:25 PM »

Ah yes, I'd forgotten that you use a Thomson router. Unfortunately it doesn't report bitswaps, so a lot of this discussion isn't relevant. The bitswaps per tone graph is one which I derive from the bitloading figures, and is really only useful as an indication of the shape of bitswapping over the tone range.
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  Eric

renluop

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Re: A simple(ton's:-\) question on bit swap graphs
« Reply #13 on: October 06, 2013, 11:08:49 PM »

Duh! :D

That said, I will continue with the 24 hr graphs. Just in case it might be somehow relevant I have enquired of the power co about the work done.

BTW what Broadcom based router would you all recommend, something considered better than Tecnicolor but not in the Billion 7800 and Draytek price points?
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roseway

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Re: A simple(ton's:-\) question on bit swap graphs
« Reply #14 on: October 07, 2013, 07:37:34 AM »

That's becoming a rather difficult question to answer. In my opinion the best answer is HG622, but you probably won't be able to find one of those for sale new. There's the D-Link DSL-2740B, which isn't the latest, and it's a rather ugly beast, but it's an excellent performer and fully compatible with DSLstats. Another low cost possibility is the TP-Link TD-W8960 which I haven't tried personally but gets generally good reviews.
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  Eric
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