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Author Topic: PC Pro Feb 2008 article  (Read 17686 times)

risk_reversal

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Re: PC Pro Feb 2008 article
« Reply #15 on: December 30, 2007, 09:44:42 PM »

Just to add my 2 pence's worth.

I was running a DG834v2 for 9months on ADSLMax and generally had few issues.

My exchange's DSLAM chipset was / is an Alcatel. Another perhaps useful fact was that my distance to exchange (according to Sam Knows) was about 750mtrs. Interleaving on my line was not set.

I recently changed to a Speetouch 585v6. This unit equally has been very stable. I have noticed that browsing is faster though.....

Seasons Greetings




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stevie

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Re: PC Pro Feb 2008 article
« Reply #16 on: January 15, 2008, 04:12:17 PM »

Over on Thinkbroadband is a few posts about this issue regarding the AR7 Chipset.

http://bbs.adslguide.org.uk/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=unhappiness&Number=3223070&page=0&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=0&fpart=6#Post3236240

Well over my head, but interesting, Zennops post starts it off, 5th post page 6, hopefully the link will take you straight there.
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Azzaka

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Re: PC Pro Feb 2008 article
« Reply #17 on: January 15, 2008, 05:48:47 PM »

I have a question for the Forum, (taking off my Zen Cap)

Who's responsibility is it when a modem does not work a with a line due to an error in the line itself and/or the DSL code used by the modems chipset?

This is basically the question that has been posed in that discussion.

And to sum it all UP:
Quote
Subject     Re: Alternative to ZEN?new  [re: alext05] [link to this post]   
Posted by   Standard User SkyFire (isp)
Posted on   Tue 15-Jan-08 11:01:34



Hi,

Zen's hardware does not play a part in this issue; the AR-7 issue deals with communication between ADSL Router and DSLAM - which is dependant upon the hardware/firmware the customer has and the equipment BT Wholesale have deployed.

We are in communication with a hardware manufacturer on this issue and we are making progress on this issue; a firmware for the hardware in question that improves/resolves this issue is likely to come about as a result of this work. In testing it does appear to resolve the problem.

regards,
Phil.

--
Phil D.Long
ZeN Technical Support Manager
iMac 24" and MacBook Pro 15.4" - Leopard-tastic

Zen Internet Technical Support are recruiting click here for details.

Please note, I will not respond to unsolicited private messages.

-------------------------IMPORTANT---------------------
The opinions expressed here are my own and do not belong to Zen Internet.
« Last Edit: January 15, 2008, 05:50:50 PM by Azzaka »
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MikeS

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Re: PC Pro Feb 2008 article
« Reply #18 on: January 15, 2008, 07:03:26 PM »

As someone who make be suffering due to this issue, here is what I think.

If it is a line fault then it clearly at BT issue.  The practical problem is that this has to accessed through the ISP interface, which can be highly tedious.

If the issue if it is DSL/Chipset code is tougher.  In an ideal world your line characteristics would be measured, e.g for noise margin variations throughout the day, attenuation etc. Dependent on the characteristics measured then either the ISP or BT should recommend a selection of compatible modems or routers, plus a realistic assessment of what speed a customer can expect.  This assumes that the ISP/BT knows how different routers behave with different line characteristics.  I would guess that many ISP's do not have this information, or possibly the equipment or desire to acquire it.  BT must have the equipment and technical expertise to do this, but they seem reluctant to publish any in-house testing. So, if the customer has a less than perfect line which many clearly do particularly in more rural areas, he may welll find himself in position of having to buy or borrow several routers to see if he can find one that works. This process is likely to result in complaints to ISP's plus BT engineer call outs, to say nothing of acute frustration for the customer, who is likely to  end up feeling that he is stuck between a rock and a hard place (ISP & BT), and that neither of them give a  F***.  For my money BT is the obvious choice for providing this information.  They maybe reluctant on confidentiality grounds, but if they could classify the line on some scale or other and then recommend a selection of routers for a particular class of line, then I feel that confidentiality becomes less of a problem.  Yes I know it's more work for them, but they'll save on call outs.  Just needs a bit of recording kit you plug in to your line for a week before you go onto broadband.
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Azzaka

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Re: PC Pro Feb 2008 article
« Reply #19 on: January 16, 2008, 09:46:04 AM »

Thank you all for your reply's however you have gone a bit off topic.

I will start a thread about routers and get your opinion about them, but for this thread can we stick with the question of responsibility please.
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roseway

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Re: PC Pro Feb 2008 article
« Reply #20 on: January 16, 2008, 10:48:56 AM »

Hmm.. the question of responsibility that you raised was a bit of a shift from the original topic. :) We'll stick with it now, but let's ALL try to keep it tidy.

I'll split the router messages into a separate thread (when I've worked out how to do it).

[Edit] Now done, topic entitled 'Comments on routers'

« Last Edit: January 16, 2008, 10:57:05 AM by roseway »
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kitz

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Re: PC Pro Feb 2008 article
« Reply #21 on: January 16, 2008, 09:35:24 PM »

>> Who's responsibility is it when a modem does not work a with a line due to an error in the line itself and/or the DSL code used by the modems chipset?

Tough question in that format.  AIU when the exact circumstances when the AR7's start misbehaving havent been disclosed.

If its a line fault then BTs responsibility without a doubt.
 
BT should have also tested that their DSLAMS work with the current CPE's on the market place.  If there are certain routers that dont work well with MAX because they dont do A,B or C then the public should have been advised by BT.  Max went through a long testing phase and many problems werent ironed out properly.
Whose silly idea was it to do most of the testing on lines that could only previously support 2Mb?  More long lines should have been included in the trials! 
We arent talking about "Noddy routers" here we are talking some pretty damn big firms and BT should have worked closer with the router manufacturers... we all know that MAX is about pushing your line as much as it can.

If however its a fault in the firmware which isnt responding properly to any DSLAMS reqeusts, then the fault lies with the manufacturers to update their firmware.
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DrTeeth

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Re: PC Pro Feb 2008 article
« Reply #22 on: January 16, 2008, 09:49:27 PM »

Quote
We arent talking about "Noddy routers" here we are talking some pretty damn big firms and BT should have worked closer with the router manufacturers... we all know that MAX is about pushing your line as much as it can.

Isn't ADSLmax an international standards-based service? If that is the case, if a bit of kit works in most/all the world except here, I'd say it was BT's fault.

I do not believe that Max is about pushing a line as much as it can per se, it is about doing so whilst keeping max stability. I'd sacrificed some stability for more oomph any day  ;).

Cheers

DrT
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stevie

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Re: PC Pro Feb 2008 article
« Reply #23 on: January 16, 2008, 10:41:24 PM »

@Azzaka

I don`t blame you for quoting the post as you`ve done.

But I was just trying to broaden the debate about AR7 chipsets.

The posts on TB has some interesting comments, it seems that Zen blames the AR7 Chipset as some sort of De-Facto answer, whilst there isn`t any absolute proof.

There was a mention that perhaps the Netgear may be complying with the specs & that the DSLAMS may not, which might then suggest that others may not?

I fail to see how your quote sums it all up!!

Zen is on record as stating that the AR7 chipset is the problem, but hasn`t any real proof that it is the real problem.

Maybe as a layperson, I`ve misunderstood things???
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Azzaka

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Re: PC Pro Feb 2008 article
« Reply #24 on: January 17, 2008, 10:19:43 AM »

Personally i would like to know where Zen said that the fault is definitely the AR7 chipset and never said that the lines have a lot to do with symptoms. The reason the AR7 issue came to light was because Zen customers started being charged by BT for having a piece of kit that did not work on the line. Yes it could be a DSLAM issue, however when the AR7 chipset doesn't work however a Broadcom does work, then is this the DSLAM or the DSL code on the chip?

The reason i summed it up was due to Netgear releasing a new firmware to us that does work on a line where the previous versions did not work. At this point i decided to pose the question of blame. This seems to be the point that most people like to make, is that it was easier for Zen as a company to blame the Chipset rather than the DSLAM, which by all means i can see the point, however if changing the modem code allows the AR7 to sit stable on a line it previously wouldn't do, is this still Zen blaming the Chipset because its easier to do so?
« Last Edit: January 17, 2008, 10:22:43 AM by Azzaka »
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roseway

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Re: PC Pro Feb 2008 article
« Reply #25 on: January 17, 2008, 10:49:19 AM »

The problem is of course that Zen were widely misquoted (or quoted out of context) when they publicly raised the point about the AR7 chipset, and perhaps they didn't make their point clear enough at the time. The impression which most people had was that Zen were simply blaming the chipset.

When the new firmware is released I presume that Zen will give it their public approval.
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  Eric

Azzaka

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Re: PC Pro Feb 2008 article
« Reply #26 on: January 17, 2008, 11:13:11 AM »

As far a i Know. BT will be giving their approval and Zen are hoping that netgear will also go on record with them.
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kitz

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Re: PC Pro Feb 2008 article
« Reply #27 on: January 17, 2008, 12:11:52 PM »

Quote
The problem is of course that Zen were widely misquoted (or quoted out of context) when they publicly raised the point about the AR7 chipset, and perhaps they didn't make their point clear enough at the time. The impression which most people had was that Zen were simply blaming the chipset.

I must admit this is the impression that I got too when I first read the el reg article.. and as Ive already said a couple of times...  its something that I feel that Zen perhaps should make a clear statement about on "home turf" where it cant be misquoted/misinterpreted out of context in a tabloid type context that it was.

As a result the Netgear routers (or any AR7 router) suddenly became the scape-goat for just about anything wrong with a line and too many people appeared to jump on the bandwagon AR7 issue.   
Yes their very well could be something in it, but it is a combination of factors... and not the doom and gloom blanket that all Netgear router are bad.  This and other similar forums have far too often seen the DG834G perform well on some long lines and stabilise some lines which other routers couldn't.

What seemed to happen was practically overnight the Netgear was automatically assumed to be the baddy, without people trying any of the other normal diagnostics that should be performed first. :/
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Azzaka

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Re: PC Pro Feb 2008 article
« Reply #28 on: January 17, 2008, 12:32:41 PM »

I agree with Kitz and she is well aware, Zen have a wiki article about the AR7 chipset that states we will raise the Fault to BT as it could be the line at fault and not the chipset and in most case is the line.

Zen specify the chipset as a precaution as we do have customers who have been charged by BT for this exact issue. As Kitz and many others have said before the problem is not clear cut and dry and can not be pin pointed by Zen, which is why Zen never did release a statement about it. The Reg article had taken points from other sites and then made its own mind up, however a thanks has to be said to the Reg because without them Netgear would not have contacted me, nor would i have been in contact with BT or infineon.
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b4dger

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Re: PC Pro Feb 2008 article
« Reply #29 on: January 17, 2008, 01:20:35 PM »

FWIW here's a quote from Zen on the Zen Support forum:


We recommend and supply Speedtouch hardware as we have a good working relationship with them and can provide the optimum support on their kit and know from experience that it works very well with Zen and for our customers. Not only that but if an issue arises they work with our technical staff to resolve to our satisfaction.

On the other hand we do have many other customers who will swear by other makes and models.

What we will always do is provide where reasonably possible as much information we can to our customers about what we know and see day to day when troubleshooting faults and I hope our customers will continue to work with us to do that.

In respect of the AR7 chipset concerns this came about after our technicians had been troubleshooting intermittent connection faults on a rate adaptive service and where the SNR was experiencing minor fluctuations.  In their observations they found that with any of the customers who used speedtouch kit or non TI AR7 chip devices the sync remained solid holding the line but anything that appeared to have the AR chipset dropped the sync and had a detrimental effect on the performance.

The chipset apeared to be the only common theme and was raised as it "Could" be a cause not "it definitly was".



http://forum.zensupport.co.uk/1/28529/ShowThread.aspx

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