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Author Topic: My experience with the Huawei and ECI Modems  (Read 32728 times)

snadge

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Re: My experience with the Huawei and ECI Modems
« Reply #75 on: June 05, 2013, 02:29:51 PM »


what concerns me is the amount of crosstalk that 'appears' to be picking up as more and more VDSL connections go live - it kinda makes me hope we DONT get FTTC if all ive got too look forward to is watching my 40Mb connection slowly dwindle away to 'slightly better' than top ADSL2+ speeds...  :no:


My DS connection speed has reduced from around a sustainable 30Mbps (after my line was finally repaired) to less than 21Mbps - strongly suspected to be as a result of increased crosstalk.

Although that is very disappointing, due to distance (from the exchange for ADSL connections), it is still far better than the 1Mbps that my connection managed on ADSL.

very true - but its still a worrying trend - will my ADSL connection be affected also? (from others signing up to VDSL when its available) sounds like it will, but not as much as VDSL

I wonder if its going to get to the point where crosstalk impacts VDSL so badly (once all/most connections in a bundle are VDSL 'live') that speeds are well below par for whats classed acceptable for VDSL (just how bad can it get?) - any news on vectoring?


@ les-70 - I had a 'Split-Pair' last year and my connection dropped from 18Mb to 9-10Mb, QLN noise was really bad as noise cancellation could not work properly, I suppose it depends on the length of the "split pair" as to how bad an effect it has.
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waltergmw

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Re: My experience with the Huawei and ECI Modems
« Reply #76 on: June 05, 2013, 03:57:21 PM »

Hi Asbokid,

Yes I agree entirely.
It could be a straight commercial reason that BT O can always charge somebody for a site visit.

Another reason might be workload if every man and his dog were to request a reset.

A third could be the false assumption that BT ccts are in pristine condition and so should never need a reset which in any case might disturb other services in the same bundle.

Perhaps BS can shed some light on the subject ?

Kind regards,
Walter

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Chrysalis

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Re: My experience with the Huawei and ECI Modems
« Reply #77 on: June 05, 2013, 07:06:30 PM »

When I last spoke to Azzaka probably around last Christmas he said quite categorically that the ONLY way of resetting a banded profile was to request a BT O site visit and that, provided the VDSL service passed all the line tests, that engineer was then able to request a reset, but NOT before.

Hi Walter,

That must be down to BT's rules-and-regs, rather than any technical limitation? The DLM software runs centrally at some NOC (Martlesham?).

Every DSLAM has an inband management interface. The DSLAM, and each of its subscriber ports, are configured and re-profiled through SNMP by the (Java-based?) DLM application. 

So a DLM reset is all software-controlled, and requires no "truck roll".

Wonder why BT opted primarily for site visits, and the great cost they entail?

cheers, a

2 guesses.

1 - to reduce reset requests, making a hard task to even get to the point of asking for a reset is a big incentiveto isp's to tell customers no.
2 - to make sure all DLM requests are investigated for faults prior to requests to reset so BT can track better causes of DLM profile shifts.  This in turn helps #1 in particular which stops repeated requests for faulty lines would just get DLM'd again.
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Chrysalis

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Re: My experience with the Huawei and ECI Modems
« Reply #78 on: June 05, 2013, 07:11:06 PM »


what concerns me is the amount of crosstalk that 'appears' to be picking up as more and more VDSL connections go live - it kinda makes me hope we DONT get FTTC if all ive got too look forward to is watching my 40Mb connection slowly dwindle away to 'slightly better' than top ADSL2+ speeds...  :no:


My DS connection speed has reduced from around a sustainable 30Mbps (after my line was finally repaired) to less than 21Mbps - strongly suspected to be as a result of increased crosstalk.

Although that is very disappointing, due to distance (from the exchange for ADSL connections), it is still far better than the 1Mbps that my connection managed on ADSL.

very true - but its still a worrying trend - will my ADSL connection be affected also? (from others signing up to VDSL when its available) sounds like it will, but not as much as VDSL

I wonder if its going to get to the point where crosstalk impacts VDSL so badly (once all/most connections in a bundle are VDSL 'live') that speeds are well below par for whats classed acceptable for VDSL (just how bad can it get?) - any news on vectoring?


@ les-70 - I had a 'Split-Pair' last year and my connection dropped from 18Mb to 9-10Mb, QLN noise was really bad as noise cancellation could not work properly, I suppose it depends on the length of the "split pair" as to how bad an effect it has.

Its down to luck really.

BT in some areas appear to have very bad cabling in place, some pairs not twisted, possible undiagnosed/ignored split pair faults, high density cabling, poor joints and so on.  Whilst in other areas it can work well and people see minimal affect from crosstalk.

Instances where FTTC works same or worse then adsl I think is uncommon or even rare.  I am suffering from what looks like tons of crosstalk, about 40% of my signal gone to crosstalk but its still about 11-12 times faster than what I could achieve on the adsl downstream speed and about 15-20 times faster on the upstream as well as been significantly more stable.

The errors you get on your adsl service suggests you have a good D side which should help on FTTC peformance.
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snadge

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Re: My experience with the Huawei and ECI Modems
« Reply #79 on: June 09, 2013, 12:34:53 AM »

@ Chrysalis  - I see, so if 40% of your speed is lost you get about 22Mbps on a 40Mb connection, and theres also the possibility that could get worse - like you say that is fine if before you had a really slow ADSL service, but for me getting 15-16Mbps throughput on ADSL, signing up to 40Mbps then seeing it dwindle away to 22Mbps would be very annoying as I would be paying a premium for something that was 1.5 times faster than what I was getting before, but has gone down to being 0.5 times faster than my old ADSL connection, not so much worth paying the extra for compared to someone who was say getting 3Mb ADSL - which initially a 40Mb connection would be 13 times faster then the ADSL connection, and when it dwindled to 22Mb its still 7.5 times faster than the old ADSL connection... so your paying premium to have internet 7.5 times faster than you had it before = worth it, but high speed ADSL connections = not so.
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Chrysalis

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Re: My experience with the Huawei and ECI Modems
« Reply #80 on: June 09, 2013, 04:24:13 PM »

@ Chrysalis  - I see, so if 40% of your speed is lost you get about 22Mbps on a 40Mb connection, and theres also the possibility that could get worse - like you say that is fine if before you had a really slow ADSL service, but for me getting 15-16Mbps throughput on ADSL, signing up to 40Mbps then seeing it dwindle away to 22Mbps would be very annoying as I would be paying a premium for something that was 1.5 times faster than what I was getting before, but has gone down to being 0.5 times faster than my old ADSL connection, not so much worth paying the extra for compared to someone who was say getting 3Mb ADSL - which initially a 40Mb connection would be 13 times faster then the ADSL connection, and when it dwindled to 22Mb its still 7.5 times faster than the old ADSL connection... so your paying premium to have internet 7.5 times faster than you had it before = worth it, but high speed ADSL connections = not so.

Well not exactly.

Consider that BT are probably massively underestimating speeds, so people with bad crosstalk may hit the estimate, people with low levels of crosstalk will easily exceed the estimate.

I was estimated at 65.9 down 20 up
I am currently getting 66 down and 20 up.

I started of at 110 down and 36 up. (attainable) sync was 80/20.

So the 40% loss was a lot of what was over the 80mbit, and pretty much what I got above the estimate.

The amount BT have been underestimating speeds led me to make a comment previously on this forum suggesting that if someone is only hitting their estimate then they probably have a line fault or high levels of crosstalk, I think the estimates are set very conservative.  There is quite a few people getting at least 15mbit over their estimate.
« Last Edit: June 09, 2013, 04:27:38 PM by Chrysalis »
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waltergmw

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Re: My experience with the Huawei and ECI Modems
« Reply #81 on: June 09, 2013, 11:35:59 PM »

@ Chrysalis,

However there are others on long lines and also long distances from the associated, but secret DP number, where the BT Wholesale estimator grossly exaggerates the estimated speed**. I expect we are the exception to the rule at present as there are comparatively few semi-rural FTTC services available. However this will change as the Local Authorities have awarded contracts to BT to provide some FTTC services but I suspect that, as many LAs include down to 2 Mbps asymmetric as Superfast, it is recognised that the rural success rate could be very much lower.

** Our worst example is at a location with three xDSL lines of about 2.25 km D side length. All were estimated to achieve a quite impossible 19 Mbps VDSL service. Fearing the worst we only installed one VDSL service which miraculously achieved 1.8 Mbps as one of the first on the FTTC. That has now dropped to 0.68 Mbps which, unsurprisingly, is lower than the other two ADSL services achieve on exchange lengths of nearly 6 km. We did try to get some improvement but to no avail. The estimator was, presumably manually, adjusted to 1 Mbps; HOWEVER the estimator STILL offers 19 Mbps for the other two. Even the latest downward adjustments have not reduced the figure from 19 Mbps.

I believe BS hinted that a revised estimator algorithm is being considered.

Kind regards,
Walter
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Chrysalis

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Re: My experience with the Huawei and ECI Modems
« Reply #82 on: June 10, 2013, 07:37:40 PM »

I think for very long lines the estimator is broken.  So to me is an exception as most lines arent long enough for that scenario.

I believe the problem is the checker doesnt take into account that there is power cutback on the adsl tones, so on lines that can 'only' use those tones the estimate is completely wrong.
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waltergmw

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Re: My experience with the Huawei and ECI Modems
« Reply #83 on: June 10, 2013, 10:31:16 PM »

@chrysalis,

Power cut back could well compound the problem but I believe the estimator always calculates from the a DP and ignores line lengths thereafter. Furthermore it does not observe individual line conditions. I've noted many occasions of several lines connected to a known DP ALL yeild the same result. The other exceptions are some, but not all, LLU services. An old O2 line provides an estimate but, I suspect because of the inter-company hostility, TalkTalk / AOL lines refuse to provide the answer unless you enter the postcode address data instead.

Kind regards,
Walter
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Bald_Eagle1

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Re: My experience with the Huawei and ECI Modems
« Reply #84 on: June 10, 2013, 10:48:46 PM »

FWIW, there is a pub 426m closer to the cabinet than my master socket (measured with a trundle wheel).
i.e. it will be around only 600m or so from the cabinet.

Entering its phone no. it also has the same recently reduced estimated speed as for my connection:-

WBC FTTC Up to 23.3 Up to 5.4 -- Available



An engineer should have visited me today to check out a reason for these reduced speeds and estimates, also possibly to liaise with a REIN engineer.

However, even though BT confirmed the appointment with Plusnet, it appears that BT didn't build the fault properly at their end & it resulted in a no show.

It is a poor state of affairs when 2 companies dealing extensively in communications couldn't communicate to me that the engineer wouldn't be arriving today after all.

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snadge

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Re: My experience with the Huawei and ECI Modems
« Reply #85 on: June 10, 2013, 11:49:17 PM »

@ BA - sorry to hear about your no-show... god I hope you get that resolved because your issue has been a long one...

@ Chrysalis  - I see your point, so you think BT deliberately under-estimate to take in account for cross-talk...
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ryant704

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Re: My experience with the Huawei and ECI Modems
« Reply #86 on: June 11, 2013, 01:09:28 AM »

Correct, the speed estimate is to the DP.
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waltergmw

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Re: My experience with the Huawei and ECI Modems
« Reply #87 on: June 11, 2013, 09:11:55 AM »

Gentlefolk,

Does anyone know whether it's possible to discover the DP number either internally for a BT Openreach engineer or for Joe public ?

The reason for this question is that on longer downstream of the DP lines there can be many pole top boxes which appear not to classed as DPs and not marked as such either. I assume that all BT 66 boxes are never classed as DPs ?

Kind regards,
Walter
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Black Sheep

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Re: My experience with the Huawei and ECI Modems
« Reply #88 on: June 11, 2013, 11:22:35 AM »

Gentlefolk,

Does anyone know whether it's possible to discover the DP number either internally for a BT Openreach engineer or for Joe public ?

The reason for this question is that on longer downstream of the DP lines there can be many pole top boxes which appear not to classed as DPs and not marked as such either. I assume that all BT 66 boxes are never classed as DPs ?

Kind regards,
Walter

Speaking as an engineer, we can readily obtain a DP number by just typing the circuit into our internal CSS systems. Only on BT circuits though. If it's an LLU circuit, the info should be provided anyway on the job.
BT66 boxes aren't a common DP, as there are restrictions on the ammount of 'pairs' that can be terminated within the closure. But, there are instances where they are used, such as on town centre shop fronts or on a rural DP that feeds only a small number of EU's.
The more common boxes are BT41 and BT18.

Sometimes, the DP numbers are missing on a pole and if it's on a long 'run' with multiple 'Carrier Poles', it's hard to distinguish which is the actual DP. We would revert to our 'Network Records' to clarify which is the actual DP. You'll appreciate the complexity whereby rural routes are a hybrid of overhead and underground cabling, without our NR's to look at working out how a particular premises is fed is virtually impossible.

Not much help but that's my two'penneth. :)
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waltergmw

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Re: My experience with the Huawei and ECI Modems
« Reply #89 on: June 12, 2013, 09:53:16 AM »

Hi BS and thanks very much.

It's easy for me to discover a network route out in the sticks with a good pair of walking boots.
Sadly I agree that I can't find the DP pole always but by checking the VDSL estimates on a number of known phone numbers I can usually make an informed guess.
It would be nice to have the network records though !

Kind regards,
Walter
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