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Author Topic: Swapping OR Modems - results....  (Read 20110 times)

edward

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Re: Swapping OR Modems - results....
« Reply #45 on: March 18, 2013, 08:38:01 AM »

OK, I understand, thanks for explaining. I won't go and buy that ECI modem just yet then, its great to see so much work and independent research going here. I'll keep reading anyway.
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burakkucat

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Re: Swapping OR Modems - results....
« Reply #46 on: March 18, 2013, 08:47:53 PM »

. . . I won't go and buy that ECI modem just yet . . .

Please don't do that.  :no:

As you have now probably noticed, there are two subtly different variants of the ECI B-FOCuS modem deployed by Openreach as an active CPE for its NGA GEA VDSL2 service. The V-2FUb/I Rev. B and the V-2FUb/r Rev. B. Both devices are still not able to divulge statistics in the quantity and format that is available from the Huawei HG612:(
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ColinS

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Re: Swapping OR Modems - results....
« Reply #47 on: April 02, 2013, 12:40:50 AM »

Just to add my own recent experience with this:  My DSLAM is Huawei. The modem the contractor brought (first thing to hand in the van I suspect) was a /r ECI.  I also 'happen' to have an HG612.  The cabinet is ~150m away.

I saw no significant difference in attainable rates between either the ECI and the Huawei, but since these are (fortunately) > than my 80/20 IP profile, it really wouldn't matter much to me if they were, because I couldn't benefit from it, and as a consequence I prefer the HG612 for now.  I appreciate that it will to many whose attainable is < their IP profile.  :(

Having used the HG612 successfully (like many others) as a router for ADSL2+ @ ~14Mb/s, I would say it is powerful enough in those circumstances, but I agree with those that doubt its ability to do so with (say) 80/20 VDSL2.

My attainable rates are slightly lower (but not that much) than predicted by Asbokid's testing, but then in my urban environment my QLN noise floor seems to be ~20dBM higher across the spectrum at ~-120 dBM than others I've seen, which tends to explain that.  What I can do about that short of BTOR implementing vectoring, I don't know.   ;D
« Last Edit: April 02, 2013, 12:45:26 AM by ColinS »
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asbokid

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Re: Swapping OR Modems - results....
« Reply #48 on: June 04, 2013, 03:37:14 PM »

Just got round to connecting a noise source to the twisted pair of a (private) local loop. The noise source is a USD100 USB-based Hantek DDS 3x25 Arbitrary Waveform Generator. [1]

Two software applications for controlling the AWG were tested: the original Hantek program. see above, and the Goltek software by SOA System Engineering:



To interface the 100 ohm balanced transmission line to the 50 ohm unbalanced coax output of the generator required a wideband BALUN.

In this configuration, it is possible to generate Gaussian and/or White noise in the range of 2uV to 7V peak-to-peak. Although to ensure flatness across a bandwidth of 17MHz (Profile 17a), the generator has a maximum output amplitude of 3.7Vpp.

While testing an HG622 with injected line noise, some graphs of Quiet Line Noise were created.   The HG622 (and no doubt the HG612 and other BCM6368 devices) will still sync in the presence of an incredible amount of line noise.  The 6368 is an extremely resilient device.

Though, unsurprisingly, bit-loading drops considerable in the presence of greater and greater levels of injected white noise*.  It's actually quite hard to stop the device from syncing altogether.

Shown below is the QLN for a zero-loop. Firstly, with a natural noise floor (including some broadcast AM RF ingress) and, secondly, with the injection of 1Vpp of white noise into that bandwidth of 17MHz.

That power level of noise, equating to approximately an extra 35 dBm/Hz above the floor, brought down the attainable rate. Consequently, on resync, the actual sync rate fell from a banded 80 Mbps connection to just 22Mbps downstream.



* increased white noise is apparently how crosstalk manifests from DSL disturbers in the same cable binder.

[1] http://www.hantek.com/english/news_list.asp?unid=13
« Last Edit: June 07, 2013, 04:09:58 PM by asbokid »
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ColinS

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Re: Swapping OR Modems - results....
« Reply #49 on: June 04, 2013, 05:18:11 PM »

Great stuff Asbo, really! :thumbs:
If
Quote
increased white noise is how crosstalk manifests from DSL disturbers in the same cable binder
and the effect of increased white noise (and so FEXT) is to raise (significantly?) the QLN noise floor, then doesn't this give us a tool for detecting the (potential) presence of increased FEXT?

i.e. if there is no change in the QLN noise floor, then there can have been little change in white noise on the line, and so no observable dramatic change in FEXT, or is that a false reverse inference?  I hope not.  BE would be pleased to have such a (virtual) tool with which to examine his stats since last December.  :thumbs:
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asbokid

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Re: Swapping OR Modems - results....
« Reply #50 on: June 04, 2013, 10:58:07 PM »

Hi Colin,

I've been following the inspirational research of Mattias Ernelli [1], replicating it, where possible. Ernelli was an intern at Telenor, the incumbent Norwegian telco and studied loop qualification for VDSL2.

In the case of VDSL2 disturbers in the same cable binder, those disturbers will occupy exactly the same spectra as the "victim" loop  (~25kHz to 17MHz).  Such that there is a flat distribution (the flatness definition of white noise) across the (Profile 17a) bandwidth from FEXT.    Ernelli writes that the noise from crosstalk should also be modelled as Gaussian - having a bell-curved distribution to its amplitude.

So maybe these humble tests need re-visiting with those observations in mind.. injecting Additive Gaussian White Noise (AGWN) into the test loop.  Or, ultimately, and as a last resort, maybe eight or so modems can be linked via the same (cat6) binder, and synced up, to study the outcome of crosstalk by trial and error!

cheers, a

[1]  http://www.ee.kth.se/php/modules/publications/reports/2008/XR-EE-KT_2008_003.pdf
« Last Edit: June 05, 2013, 08:19:07 PM by asbokid »
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Bald_Eagle1

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Re: Swapping OR Modems - results....
« Reply #51 on: June 05, 2013, 12:13:30 AM »

Interesting findings there, asbokid.


FWIW, I have attached montages of my connection since December 2012 & the present time.

The 'stepped' speed & power reductions can be clearly seen.

As these reductions coincide with a 'stepped' deterioration in my QLN graphs & SNR (not SNRM) graphs, my/our assumption was it was a result of increased crosstalk.

Could it actually be anything else?

Strangely though, DS errored seconds increased prior to the completely unexpected removal of Interleaving & have continued ever since, going from around 100 per day in December to currently between around 600 & 800 per day.

Has the reduced power (particularly in the D2 band) caused the reduced speed or is it a consequence of the reduced speed?


Also, my connection resynced at at the most unusual times of 22:30 last night & again at 07:30 this morning.
DLM initiated resyncs usually tend to occur between 04:00 & 05:00 on my connection.

« Last Edit: June 05, 2013, 12:16:04 AM by Bald_Eagle1 »
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burakkucat

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Re: Swapping OR Modems - results....
« Reply #52 on: June 05, 2013, 12:59:26 AM »

Just got round to connecting a noise source to the twisted pair of a (private) local loop. The noise source is a USD100 Hantek DDS 3x25 arbitrary waveform generator. [1]

<snip>

To interface the 100 ohm balanced transmission line to the 50 ohm unbalanced coax output of the generator required a wideband BALUN.

<snip>

[1] http://www.hantek.com/english/news_list.asp?unid=13

I wonder if a photograph of the loop, with a balun for noise injection, will shortly be forthcoming? Or failing that, a sketch of the circuit, please?  ???
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asbokid

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Re: Swapping OR Modems - results....
« Reply #53 on: June 05, 2013, 02:00:20 PM »

Sure, I'll take some photos (after disguising my pathetic soldering!)

It's not very exciting, though.  Just a 'T' joint between the 50 ohm unbalanced coax output of the AWG, and the two 100 ohm balanced twisted pairs.  Two pairs, with one pair going to the DSLAM, and one going to the VDSL2 CPE.  An RJ11 plug on each end, as per the photo below.

As for the BALUN, it is from North Hills (NH14023):

See: http://docs.google.com/file/d/0B6wW18mYskvBeldxVDhybkFhY00/edit?usp=sharing

EDIT:




cheers, a
« Last Edit: June 06, 2013, 02:31:33 PM by asbokid »
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asbokid

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Re: Swapping OR Modems - results....
« Reply #54 on: June 06, 2013, 12:58:01 AM »

After a couple of days toying with this, it is clear that injecting measured amounts of noise into a local loop is something of a black art!

For this experiment, enough Gaussian noise has to be injected to induce line errors (to test the modem's response). But too much noise causes an irretrievable framing loss and ultimately loss of sync. However, there's a very fine threshold between those two noise levels.

Furthermore, these noise tests using the Hantek AWG, above, exhibit something of the Boiled Frog syndrome! That is: "start with a cool pan, slowly raise the heat, and the frog won't even notice!".  That seems to be the case with line noise, too!

Suddenly injecting a high power level of noise almost certainly causes a lost connection with immediate effect.  One loss of framing signal is enough.

By contrast, there is 'success' when the line is synced with no noise. Only then is the noise slowly increased. Starting with just a few microvolts amplitude, the noise can be raised to several hundred millivolts over the time span of a few tens of seconds or minutes.   Presumably as the CPE furiously bit-swaps in search of better carriers.

So what? Who cares?

Well, we might speculate that this behaviour has some relevance to the effects of crosstalk noise, as VDSL2 is rolled out further.

When a VDSL circuit is newly commissioned,  it's possible that it will act as an immediate and severe 'disturber' on its neighbouring pairs. Inducing large amounts of Gaussian noise into them from the moment that the new port is activated at the DSLAM.    There is nothing in the VDSL2 specs (sfaik) for building up transmit power on a slowly-slowly basis. So what is going to happen in those cases?

This is pure speculation, but it might be found that as a new VDSL2 circuit is activated, the crosstalk it creates causes the immediate de-syncing of (borderline) neighbours..Those lines then re-sync, knocking out the new circuit. Which then tries to resync itself.  In a ping-pong effect!    Just speculation though. No evidence of that actually happening, yet!

Though what has been seen is as follows: the Gaussian noise power level is incrementally raised (simulating disturbance from increased crosstalk). The actual net data rate remains static, a property of the DLM configuration.  However, the attainable rate still drops. Causing the Relative Capacity Occupation (RCO) , a percentage measurement, to rise, quite possibly above 100%.  Meanwhile, with the noise floor raised, the SNR margins, especially in the higher downstream bands, are seen to wither downwards, towards zero.

As those SNR margins are slashed, and with that static actual net data rate, the error rates creep up. Eventually, the DLM algorithm has to intervene. So it re-profiles the line with lower transmission rate bands, and the SNR margins rise again.

Sfaics, those stages could mark the typical effects of crosstalk at the CPE as more and more subscribers sharing the same cable binder opt for a VDSL2 service.

cheers, a
« Last Edit: June 07, 2013, 04:21:23 PM by asbokid »
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Bald_Eagle1

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Re: Swapping OR Modems - results....
« Reply #55 on: June 06, 2013, 07:24:43 PM »


Sfaics, those stages could mark the typical effects of crosstalk at the CPE as more and more subscribers sharing the same cable binder opt for a VDSL2 service.



That does seem to pretty much describe what I saw when I noticed the first downward sync speed step in my connection 31st December.

The reduced SNRM persisted for a few days before the connection resynced at lower speed with SNRM back to normal.

However, this happened quite suddenly as did the increase in various error counts.

It does seem to have affected both the D1 & D2 bands to the same extent.
I can't actually make use of the D3 band due to distance from the cabinet, hence no data for it.
« Last Edit: June 06, 2013, 07:27:16 PM by Bald_Eagle1 »
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asbokid

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Re: Swapping OR Modems - results....
« Reply #56 on: June 07, 2013, 02:50:08 PM »

That does seem to pretty much describe what I saw when I noticed the first downward sync speed step in my connection 31st December.

The reduced SNRM persisted for a few days before the connection resynced at lower speed with SNRM back to normal.

31st Dec (2012) is such a strange date for a VDSL2 service to be activated (if that's why you measured a sudden reduction in SNRM on your line).    Is it feasible that someone did actually have their connection activated on that date?    It was a Monday but was Openreach open for business over that period for non-essential work?

cheers, a
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Bald_Eagle1

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Re: Swapping OR Modems - results....
« Reply #57 on: June 07, 2013, 03:23:06 PM »


31st Dec (2012) is such a strange date for a VDSL2 service to be activated



TBH, that date is what is making me hesitate in outright declaring this as a crosstalk issue.

The QLN graph shows a corresponding stepped deterioration since then (suggesting crosstalk), but a visiting engineer didn't confirm it & the matter (& the lack of any 'proper' explanation) has been flagged by Plusnet as requiring another visit.

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asbokid

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Re: Swapping OR Modems - results....
« Reply #58 on: June 07, 2013, 04:28:38 PM »

Perhaps BlackSheep could clear up the speculation.  Would Openreach have been operating on the morning of New Year's Eve on non-essential work such as activating a VDSL2 service?

The time of day (just after 8am, the start of the Openreach working day) does suggest that the slashed SNRM was caused by Openreach work rather than by some arbitrary line fault.

cheers, a
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