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Author Topic: Generosity just flows from BT Openreach !  (Read 7985 times)

waltergmw

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Generosity just flows from BT Openreach !
« on: December 29, 2012, 08:49:21 AM »

Gentlefolk,

I wonder just how many CPs will be queuing up for this little negative money spinner to give themselves even more hassle ?

http://www.openreach.co.uk/orpg/home/updates/briefings/super-fastfibreaccessbriefings/super-fastfibreaccessbriefingsarticles/nga03312.do

Kind regards,
Walter
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jid

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Re: Generosity just flows from BT Openreach !
« Reply #1 on: December 29, 2012, 04:25:52 PM »

This will take strain off engineers though, the one who installed FTTC for me said there were 80 to 100 jobs per day in my area, bringing in many more engineers from other areas to cope with demand. Spending only the time at the cabinet as opposed to in the home will reduce the demands greatly.

Although it does seem a negative money spinner in some respects as you say Walter, it could cause unnecessary hassle.
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Kind Regards
Jamie

BT FTTP - 75meg | Sky Q |  Bridgend Weather

waltergmw

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Re: Generosity just flows from BT Openreach !
« Reply #2 on: December 29, 2012, 07:08:45 PM »

Hi jid,
I can understand your logic if only it worked that way!

If your area is anything like south west Surrey, BT are actually making things very much worse by employing under-skilled piece-rate subcontractors whose only ambition is to see the modem lights and beat a very hasty retreat.

We have now had (at least) two horror stories by subcontractors. The first put two NTE5s in series, each with ring wires attached, and with the integral filter on the second; that resulted in 9 Mbps download and once cured** that became over 30 Mbps. The second installer didn't even bother to change any internal wiring despite having the original small master socket again with a ring wire and a slave integral filter plate where he connected the VDSL modem ! That gave sub 20 Mbps figures on a relatively short line. We've now installed the correct NTE5 and integral filter resulting in a sync speed of 45 Mbps BUT it's capped at 25 Mbps.**

** The cure involves raising a SFI appointment as the BT Openreach control will only then reset the Banded Profile. If the jobs had been installed properly in the first place, then no further work would have been necessary. However, although a significant nuisance for the EU and Openreach, at least we get a proper inspection and Pair Quality Test this way, assuming you have the capability to observe very bad performance on the locked down modem.

Kind regards,
Walter
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Black Sheep

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Re: Generosity just flows from BT Openreach !
« Reply #3 on: December 29, 2012, 08:46:44 PM »

Alas, speaking from first-hand experience, Walter is correct in his mootings about 'Contractor installs'. As with all things GB, what was once the hallmark for greatness, has now become a job-standard for bottom dollar paid.

In other words ............ nobody really cares anymore.
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burakkucat

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Re: Generosity just flows from BT Openreach !
« Reply #4 on: December 29, 2012, 09:02:47 PM »

Quote
............ nobody really cares anymore.

Apart from Black Sheep, black cats and Walters! (And friends.)  ::)
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jid

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Re: Generosity just flows from BT Openreach !
« Reply #5 on: December 29, 2012, 10:11:33 PM »

Hi jid,
If your area is anything like south west Surrey, BT are actually making things very much worse by employing under-skilled piece-rate subcontractors whose only ambition is to see the modem lights and beat a very hasty retreat.

Yes now interesting you mention contractors, Kelly Communications isn't it? Around my area, South Wales, we generally don't have any contractors except for in the cities, Swansea, Cardiff etc, where I live in Bridgend, we've complete coverage for FTTC, there's cabs literally everywhere! It seems we're lucky, i've never seen a contractor whereas when around Swansea, there's always a Kelly van!
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Kind Regards
Jamie

BT FTTP - 75meg | Sky Q |  Bridgend Weather

waltergmw

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Re: Generosity just flows from BT Openreach !
« Reply #6 on: December 29, 2012, 11:46:57 PM »

@ jid,

We rejoice in having at least two firms Kelly and Quinn who can then blame each other as well as Openreach.

@ all,

Whilst this might be OTT at present, it might not be too long before some parts of the D side PSTN become unmanageable. A third VDSL contractor installation "discovered a fault"  leaving the EU without a dial tone or ADSL. It took a further 3 days to restore the service by a BT engineer (not VDSL trained) so their VDSL service was postponed for over a month with the holidays, but was then brought forward by happenstance with a delay of only a couple of weeks.

Another joy I'm still unscrambling is a VDSL service recorded in the BT Database as a DACS service, which so far has resulted in two lines losing their dial tones, one after the other. Quite understandably BT Openreach will not address the initial problem before the other mistakes are rectified.

I suggest that even if, say 10%, of the lines are improperly recorded there would be so much tail-chasing by different engineers, often not local ones ( e.g. Oxfordshire or Devon to my certain knowledge ), none knowing precisely what the previous operations have achieved, nor the local network idiosyncrasies which inevitably get forgotten. (E.g. A derelict lightening arrestor still in circuit causing 98 pairs of potential bridged taps - the other two I persuaded the engineers to cut loose at different times.)

Light the blue touch paper and stand well back !!!!

Kind regards,
Walter
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jid

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Re: Generosity just flows from BT Openreach !
« Reply #7 on: December 30, 2012, 12:04:21 AM »

Its interesting that they have these contractors, I assume they have just been trained to get everything done as quickly as possible?

I read online that the contractors aren't as good as OR themselves, my Fibre was installed by an Openreach engineer who was very helpful and allowed me to look over his shoulder as it were and showed me how everything worked, he was a very nice guy and was extremely helpful and tidy.

I think self install of Fibre would be a good idea, the faster the better, it winds me up, companies like Sky do similar, £60 to plug in a set top box, since left them and moved over to TalkTalk Tv, who also are the same trying to charge £50 for an engineer to plug some cables in and tune freeview!
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Kind Regards
Jamie

BT FTTP - 75meg | Sky Q |  Bridgend Weather

waltergmw

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Re: Generosity just flows from BT Openreach !
« Reply #8 on: December 30, 2012, 09:27:00 AM »

@ Jamie,

It would be unwise to say that all BT subcontractors are the same, just as a BT Openreach engineer might also make a mistake. However the worst examples I have seen suggest subcontractors are only shown how to identify a twisted pair in the cabinet, often by placing a tone generator at the EU end, then how to cut that pair and re-jumper it into the two tie cable bundles.

The subcontractor success test is to observe the sync light on a standard modem at the PCP, followed by a similar test at the EU together with the lights on the router. It seems little importance is given to the configured service data at the PCP or the EU's house wiring which can make a disastrous difference.

All BT Openreach staff carry suitable test equipment allowing them to identify the pair at the PCP and to test the VDSL line's performance. Similarly BT Openreach staff will, without question, install a NTE5 if required and an integral filter faceplate. Finally they will demonstrate an adequate performance, although this might be below the estimated speeds given by the BT Wholesale VDSL estimator. However nobody is expected to access the modem's very valuable data as that could indicate that better performance might be available.

Please note the above is based upon my own observations but I'm sure BS will (please) correct me if I'm in error.

Kind regards,
Walter
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kitz

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Re: Generosity just flows from BT Openreach !
« Reply #9 on: December 30, 2012, 09:59:07 AM »

ouch @ £134,000 to be part of the pilot ???

I wonder how this will impact installation costs for the EU though - if the pilot is a success and becomes the norm.
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Black Sheep

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Re: Generosity just flows from BT Openreach !
« Reply #10 on: December 30, 2012, 12:54:30 PM »

@ Jamie,

It would be unwise to say that all BT subcontractors are the same, just as a BT Openreach engineer might also make a mistake. However the worst examples I have seen suggest subcontractors are only shown how to identify a twisted pair in the cabinet, often by placing a tone generator at the EU end, then how to cut that pair and re-jumper it into the two tie cable bundles.

The subcontractor success test is to observe the sync light on a standard modem at the PCP, followed by a similar test at the EU together with the lights on the router. It seems little importance is given to the configured service data at the PCP or the EU's house wiring which can make a disastrous difference.

All BT Openreach staff carry suitable test equipment allowing them to identify the pair at the PCP and to test the VDSL line's performance. Similarly BT Openreach staff will, without question, install a NTE5 if required and an integral filter faceplate. Finally they will demonstrate an adequate performance, although this might be below the estimated speeds given by the BT Wholesale VDSL estimator. However nobody is expected to access the modem's very valuable data as that could indicate that better performance might be available.

Please note the above is based upon my own observations but I'm sure BS will (please) correct me if I'm in error.

Kind regards,
Walter

You're pretty much on the money there, Walter.

Firstly, I've said it before and I'll say it again, Openreach need sub-contractors to survive and meet certain SLG's (Service Level Guarantees). In my opinion, where it all fell down was when the hierarchy decided to issue MI (Managed Installs - FTTC) work to these guys. Not just the subbies, but also the ex-MoD folk who we affectionately call 'Dads Army'. They should have been left with the relatively easy, installation tasks only.

Again, IMHO, I think the EU's end up with a 2-tiered service dependant on who arrives at their premises, Openreach or one of the above. That said, a high-percentage of MI's are very straightforward, hence the moves to make it a self-install product where practical.

Regarding the 'Estimator'. My own experiences show me that it generally under-predicts the expected speeds hence joy and delight for the EU when they get more Mb's for their dollar.
The problems arise when extremely rural EU's apply, and are told to expect (for example) 20Meg DS, 4Meg US. Whereas in reality, the get 4Meg DS and 0.5Meg US, slightly less than what they were getting on ADSL. This is exactly what happened to me just the other day.
The confusion lies with the 'estimator', as the speeds are only based on distance to the DP (Distribution Point- Telegraph Pole). My EU was then fed via another 18 CP's (Carrier Poles) and a 250mtr section of UG (Underground) cable.

Like jid's engineer, I always explain what I'm doing, and invite (in fact insist  :)) on the EU taking an interest in the on-site tests I have to do. I would estimate that most EU's are genuinely intrigued when I explain to them in laymans terms how DSL works, and the DLM. Blowing my own trumpet here, but I've got a list of 'Thank-you' e-mails  as long as my arm. Not in any way forced on the EU by myself, but on their insistence that I give them my managers e-mail address. I don't care how old one is, it's always nice to be thanked for a job well done. :-[

It's this extra time spent with the EU, involving them and giving them knowledge, that gives a greater 'Customer experience'. Unfortunately, the powers that be expect our 'other halves' to knock out 5/6 MI's a day ( a 9hr rostered day). I average about 3 a day (a 7hr20mins rostered day). It's this extreme pressure, coupled with little knowledge, that makes for sometime poor Contractor workmanship. Again, all the above are just my opinions. :)
« Last Edit: December 30, 2012, 12:56:32 PM by Black Sheep »
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Black Sheep

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Re: Generosity just flows from BT Openreach !
« Reply #11 on: December 30, 2012, 01:04:42 PM »

To sum it all up, working for BT is ..............................  ;D ;D
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jid

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Re: Generosity just flows from BT Openreach !
« Reply #12 on: December 30, 2012, 08:32:49 PM »

It would be unwise to say that all BT subcontractors are the same, just as a BT Openreach engineer might also make a mistake. However the worst examples I have seen suggest subcontractors are only shown how to identify a twisted pair in the cabinet, often by placing a tone generator at the EU end, then how to cut that pair and re-jumper it into the two tie cable bundles.

This is fair enough yes Walter, although it does seem online that there are more bad reports about subcontractors and not about the Openreach engineers.

Like jid's engineer, I always explain what I'm doing, and invite (in fact insist  :)) on the EU taking an interest in the on-site tests I have to do. I would estimate that most EU's are genuinely intrigued when I explain to them in laymans terms how DSL works, and the DLM. Blowing my own trumpet here, but I've got a list of 'Thank-you' e-mails  as long as my arm. Not in any way forced on the EU by myself, but on their insistence that I give them my managers e-mail address. I don't care how old one is, it's always nice to be thanked for a job well done. :-[

As Black Sheep has said, I liked that the engineer did speak and explain everything to me, and its cases like that I am willing to give good feedback to the right people :)
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Kind Regards
Jamie

BT FTTP - 75meg | Sky Q |  Bridgend Weather