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[Dazzieb]

What a morning, up bright and early, the sun is shining, the kids are in a good mood and packed off to nursery, no fights with the wife, things are really looking up and to top it off I am  expecting a BT engineer visit to install my BT Infinity. BT recently emailed me to advise that I can receive it. Checked BT's site, 17.9Mbps I can receive, not the best but better than I have, so I am going to have to leave my existing ISP of 16 years (yes that is true), but hey time for pastures new, so I placed an Infinity order and today is the installation date.

*I was currently on an ADSLMax product with a consistent 6+ Mbps connection with a Downstream sync of a steady 7424Kbps and Upstream sync of 448Kbps, not bad I am sure you are thinking. BTW would consistently advise that I would receive an ADSLMax rate of 3.5Mbps so I was always very happy with the 'improved rate' over the BT estimates that I had been receiving.

Anyway, the engineer passes the house and onto the cabinet, phone goes off, aha, switch over in progress. The Engineer arrives at the house a short time later and looks a little concerned, everything ok I ask, well, not too sure at this stage to be honest, he says. What speed did BT say you could get, 17.9Mbps I advised, hmm the engineer said, you are 1.6 miles from the cabinet and things degrade over 1.2 Miles he advised. Oh I thought, but the BTW checker advises that I will be ok and that I can get.... then I remember * above. Inside I think crap! The engineer goes ahead with the connecting up of the Openreach box and then keeps going outside.

He catches up with me 20mins later as I am getting excited about what I am going to do with my increased speed. Not good news he said, oh I said, what's the score, sync speed of 2.7Mbps he said, OFFS. Inside I was furious and the expletives were a plenty, on the exterior I was cool and calm and said, ok, take the kit away and put things back how they were and correct everything with BT, he said he would.

Flaming heck!!!!!!

My question to you all is, do you think there could be someting a miss here. Surely the degredation on the line over the last 400 metres can't be that bad, after all (and I know ADSLMax is far more forgiving than FTTC would be) I do get an exceptional rate via ADSLMax and I know they are different products/technologies but...

What do you think?

[GigabitEthernet]

Were you actually sold BT Infinity or BT Broadband with Fibre? If you were sold BT Infinity you shouldn't have expected any less than 15Mb because BT won't sell it to you if it is lower than that.

[Dazzieb]

Thanks for the reply, I was sold BT Infinity.

[GigabitEthernet]

Hmmm, there must be something faulty on the line then, if you sync at 7425Kbps on ADSL the speed should INCREASE not DECREASE as most of the copper wire (which is why speeds slow down when you get further away from the exchange) is eliminated since fibre is used instead.

Did the engineer test the line to see if there were any problems? I would have thought that if they had seen a 2.7Mb sync speed that would have immediately indicated issues.

If I was you, I would email the BT CEO's office and explain your situation. They respond very quickly and they will be happy to try and solve your issues.

[Dazzieb]

It certainly does seem a bit strange, I couldn't really see how my ADSL rate was so good yet the FTTC rates were so incredibly poor. I was just on to BT's Customer services to make sure that they hold off on things and even they were surprised, as they stated, they can't even sell the product in the first place unless their tests come back under 15mbps.

Will send an email and see what I get back.

[Bald_Eagle1]

My question to you all is, do you think there could be someting a miss here. Surely the degredation on the line over the last 400 metres can't be that bad, after all (and I know ADSLMax is far more forgiving than FTTC would be) I do get an exceptional rate via ADSLMax and I know they are different products/technologies but...

What do you think?

From other users' stats, I have seen 18.5Mb sync speed over 1.3 miles (2100metres) & also 18Mb over 1 mile (1600 metres).

VDSL2 (FTTC) uses higher frequencies than ADSL connections to currently achieve up to 80Mb sync speeds from BT's 17a profile.

On longer lines, attenuation is simply to high to achieve anything (or very little) from the higher frequencies.

However (the good news), all VDSL2 connections start bit loading at the lower frequencies, delivering whatever is physically possible to the end user.

These lower frequencies are the same frequencies as used for ADSL connections.
As VDSL2 "basically" uses the same technology as ADSL, you should at least achieve the same speeds as ADSL over a shorter cable length (assuming the cabinet is not sat immediately outside the exchange).

As ADSL cuts off its bit loading at a lower frequency than VDSL2 does, in theory (& subject to attenuation that increases with frequency), you could/should expect a speed increase.

Additionally, VDSL2 17a connections use up to 3 frequency bands (on shorter good condition copper connections from the cabinet), so a "too high" attenuation at the higher frequency band will not negatively affect anything being delivered via the lower frequency bands.

Bits are generally spread out across the 3 frequency bands for those connections.

Wherever a connection cannot make use of say the highest frequency band, as many bits as possible are "shoved" to the lower frequency band & loaded there instead.

e.g. When my own connection (between 800m & 1100m) is "performing", I can achieve a sync speed of up to 35Mb.
As my attenuation is quite high, I can only use the first 2 frequency bands. Almost all bits are loaded in the lowest band & a few get loaded in the 2nd band.

When my connection is regularly misbehaving (engineer's visit arranged for Saturday), my sync speed is quite often around, or below 20Mb & only the first frequency band is useable.
My sync speed has on occasions been as low as 8Mb.

So, assuming the engineer re-used the same copper pair from the cabinet, only 2.7Mb sync speed definitely indicates a repairable problem.

If he had some difficulty in making the connection to the fibre element, it is possible that DLM in the cabinet saw many connections/disconnections within a very short period of time & took "very aggressive" corrective action by reducing sync speed in an effort to provide a stable connection.

The only other explanation (in my mind) is that the engineer may just have unwittingly "disturbed" a joint that was previously hanging on by the skin of its teeth.

Are you really 1.6 miles (2575 metres) from the cabinet, or is it being incorrectly reported due to what may hopefully be just temporarily too high an attenuation level, due to maybe a "dodgy" disturbed joint?

Good luck in getting this resolved & don't give up all hope just yet.

[Dazzieb]

Thanks Bald_Eagle1, a lot of information there.

I have to go by BT's info on the distance to the Cabinet. As I am Rural the line goes through a mix of poles and underground. To drive to the cabinet from the house is about a 3/4 of a mile but the pole to pole run does split off from the road and head across a field before coming back to the road again.

I have just checked my Downstream Attenuation via my ADSL router and it does appear to be a bit on the high side, 52db (0 errors and 0 drops), but when using that figure against the 'Maximum adsl speed calculator' on Kitz it would suggest that I am 3.8km from the exchange which may make sense if the Attenuation is back to the Exchange rather than the cabinet. The Exchange is about a 3rd of a mile further out than the cabinet in an almost straight line but I suppose the cable routing from the cabinet to the Exchange could go anywhere. If it were direct to the Exchange it which would bring up an accumulative figure of just shy of 2 miles to the Exchange (3.2km).

At this stage I am not sure what I could do as I may be answering my own question here, the thing that pi**ed me off more thananything is, as usual, the BT Broadband checker is throwing out false promises. I have always known it to err on the side of caution so was at least expecting to get Infinity and maybe get a slightly higher rate than the checker advised. I am not 100% sure how the BTW tester works when calculating what you can receive to allow you to order, certainly whether it was a 'Postcode guess'or whether a test was actually performed on the line down to the premises.

I think I will follow this up with BT and maybe see what can be done.

[Dazzieb]

Update.....

After my failed installation this morning and subsequent possible cancellation of order I popped onto BT's website to check the status of the order for Infinity. Well the order had indeed been updated. Dear Sir, and Engineer will be visiting your premises on the 20th April to complete your BB installation, Activation will also take place the same day... Have you ever seen steam come from a human beings ears! Right that's it I'd had enough.

I managed to get the email address of the CEO at BT Openreach and vented my frustration. I then went on to call BT to ask them what the hell they were playing at, I spoke to a Woman in India, I asked why hasn't the order been cancelled I can't get FTTC, I am too far from the cabinet, the Engineer that visited this morning said so. She said she would check with BTW, please hold (before I got a chance to say anything further). She came back and asked me why the Engineer hadn't visited this morning, WTF, I said he had visited, completed his test and I was too far from the cabinet, ah she said, please hold whilst I check. I held on for 10 mins and then handed the phone over to the Wife as I had to collect the kids. When I got home I asked what BT had concluded. The wife said, oh they said we can't have Infinity, we are too far from the Cabinet.... we are now 1.8 miles from the cabinet. Now call it a conspiracy if you wish but moving the Cabinet even further away is just rubbing salt into the wounds, it must have been a mighty task cutting back the Fibre, re-splicing etc in a few hours, I thought there was alot of activity in the town. I then said to the wife I gather they cancelled the order then, oh no she said, they insisted they keep the Engineer visit booked in, just in case we change our mind..... OMG, I couldn't stop laughing , I think the kids had thought Daddy has had a funny turn.

I rang BT again, got a man in India this time, I explained all again, he asked me to hold again, he came back and said we can't get BT Infinity, now I am not being funny but do some people just not listen to what your saying, he did apologise for testing the line again unecessarily. Just out of curiosity I asked him why the BB checker says I can have Infinity, BT Sales also said I could have Infinity (this is where I placed the order, over the phone), yet actually I am so far from the cabinet, surely that isn't possible. His response was, and I find this very hard to believe, we don't know that anyone can until and Engineer visits and completes a series of tests. Shocking, if true, what a waste of time and resources not only for BT but for their potential customers, and it really wouldn't be fair on the Engineers to take unecessary flack. It can't be true, surely?

Well I have checked the status of the order this evening and it has been cancelled. I have been advised that the Engineer can do everything at the Exchange now and not site visit is required. I still have an activation date of the 20th April though.

I have also since received a reply from the CEO at BT Openreach, she was very polite but advised that my complaint should really be directed to BT as the area of complaint is outside of their scope. I have also received an email from the Senior support team at BT on the back of the other email and am expecting a call tomorrow to discuss my complaint, we will see what happens, maybe I can convince BT that I need a cabinet at the end of my Driveway, and maybe they will fulfill my request .

Thanks for listening.....

[camallison]

The opposite side of the coin ........ I had BT Infinity successfully installed and, the next morning, was called by BT.  They were sorry that I wanted to cancel my BT Infinity installation order!!!!

One end of the business doesn't know what the other end is doing!

Sorry to hear you can't get Infinity, but give 'em hell via the BT CEO - he really does listen and you really do get a satisfactory conclusion.  On another thread, I recounted the woes with another ISP whose CEO never bothered to respond, separate parts of the business hadn't any idea of what was happening, other than staring at their screens waiting to be informed of a resolution.  In this case, the support engineer sorted it out within 15 minutes of receiving a support request email from us.

Don't give up.

Colin

[waltergmw]

@ Dazzieb,

I echo the others saying you shouldn't give up yet.

The crucial point to emphasise is your good ADSL Max performance indicates that a VDSL connection should be possible, although it is not going to be near the maximum speeds advertised.
Another specialist field engineer might just discover a fault if the TDR test indicates an anomaly somewhere.

Kind regards,
Walter

[bluebeanbandit]

If your line is 3.8km and Exchange to PCP is 550m meaning pcp to premises is 3.25km then you have no chance of getting VDSL.  1.5km is the ball park max distance, i would reckon up to 2km may be ok depending on conductor size and material.

Here's a link to a very rough guide to distance/speed on FTTC, http://www.thinkbroadband.com/news/5161-how-fast-will-fttc-run-at.html.  Going by that guide BB checker must put your distribution point not your house around 1250m from the PCP, this is the problem with the BB checker which is more noitceable on rural routes.  Speed is calculated using the dB loss from PCP to distribution point which is fine if your some 50 metres from the DP which is likely in suburbia but when you are rural you could easily be a further 2-3km from the DP, meaning no VDSL.  If you look at the poles on route you will find a lot will be labelled CP rather than DP.  Openreach will take the order and then leave it 'subject to engineer survey'.

What Bald Eagle is saying may be ok in theory but in practice VDSL will not match what ADSL can provide once you get too far from the PCP, drop off is just too great.

It may be a waiting game for technology to improve and allow VDSL over greater distances.

[waltergmw]

@ BBB,

I certainly take your points regarding the normal transmission line physics.

I believe many of our problems are due to significant disturbances.
We are only going by testers at present as we still await FTTC installations but I know of several examples where the checkers estimate over 20 Mbps for one house and another group 200 m, just round the corner, are refused entirely.

In this situation, and without a universal service obligation, we have to hope that we can apply sufficient pressure upon the incumbent to repair or replace a short section of 50 pr cable.

Kind regards,
Walter

[jeffbb]

Hi
Using the synch rate on 8max the estimated distance to the exchange would normally be about 2.6 Km assuming that the synch rate had not been tweeked down.

quote Downstream Attenuation via my ADSL router and it does appear to be a bit on the high side, 52db (0 errors and 0 drops), but when using that figure against the 'Maximum adsl speed calculator' on Kitz it would suggest that I am 3.8km

Now that is really odd how you manage your synch rate with that attenuation on 8 max  .
But if you were on adsl2+ with tweeked SNR margin and an exceptionally quiet line it would be more like it .(allowing 2 to 3 db for the difference in attenuation on adsl2 +).
If that was the case then you would still expect to get at least  the synch rate for adsl2+ for the distance to the cabinet +the benefit of reduced attenuation for a third of a mile .+? whatever the additional tones available .
Have you got your full stats .
This is a point to remember that the gains from FTCC cannot be related to a users current connection rate . Its all mostly  dependent  on the distance to the cabinet  . So 2 users with the same Say 8 max connection speed(on 2 different cabinets) may well have totally different Infinity synch rate. The on whose nearer the cabinet will benefit more eventhough at present they have the same attenuation.to the exchange .
Regards jeff.

 

[Dazzieb]

@BBB

I completely understand where you are coming from, it seems such a shame, and potentially a waste (I will leave that open to debate) that BT Openreach are investing large amounts of money (with government funding in some cases) to provide a higher speed connection to those that are connected over short distances to the FTTC cabinets. In my locality I am relatively close (by Rural ADSL standards) to my exchange so receive a very good ADSL sync speed but at the same time the FTTC cabinet that I connect into (I am aware of which one as I have had this checked by a friend who is a BT engineer but does not cover my area) is not that far from the exchange leaving a much longer run to my premises and is clearly throwing up the problem that I started this post with.

Further to your input it really does make the BTW checker wholly useless and I gather most other providers also use this information as a basis for provision of a fibre service. I am sure I am not the only one that has had cause to complain to BT or their ISP for failure to provide service on a placed order, after all they ask for the phone number of the premises that is looking for the service as they advise that this will give the most accurate result! I was incredibly confused to be quoted a Downstream speed of 17.9Mbps and upon the Engineer checking was told it would be 2.7Mbps having given BT my phone number (for accurate checking), some drop in speed I am sure will agree. BT are still investigating the issue but are taking a considerable amount of time to conclude as I was advised that I would have a response on Tuesday but just received an email today advising that it would now be Monday.

Do you know what the most gutting thing is, right at the end of my driveway, as rural as I am, there is an old GPO access plate on my property to a now defunct, but still open (as far as I am aware) cable tunnel link between towns. If I pushed hard enough could I be the first 'very rural' premises to receive FTTP?

@jeffbb

Hi Jeff, I know it's hard to believe owing to the high attenuation but I really do get a very good sync rate on ADSL (our exchange is not enabled for ADLS2+). The original lossless (error free) stats that I posted up were thos taken at the time and the Router had been active again for a period of about 8 hours or so after the engineer had been on site. I checked the stats again just now and a significant number of errors are present but the stats I am about to provide below are those since the Router was last rebooted over 9 days ago. I also conducted a small session BER test and the stats were as follows:

See Image


I am not sure if the above stats will be of much use but this is what I am getting at the moment. I probabaly should advise that our premises are only 4 years old and I do use an ADSL Nation XTE-2005 ADSL plate and triple braided RJ11 cable over a 0.5m run from the plate to my D-Link ADSL Router to ensure minimal interference.

BT connected our overhead cable run to an existing BT pole which originally terminated about 150 metres from our premises. The other party that connects the pole are my in-laws and their sync speed is about 1.5Mbps (this makes me quite unpopular) but they have BT wiring from the 1970's which connect directly into one of the old 'star' boxes in the loft which then distributes to 3 sockets and they connect their ADSL Router into one of those!

Cheers

Darren

[GigabitEthernet]

Out of interest, what router is that?