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Author Topic: running more than one adsl extension from a nte5 faceplate  (Read 7575 times)

simo_petar

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running more than one adsl extension from a nte5 faceplate
« on: December 03, 2012, 03:23:23 PM »

Hi all,
awhile back I fitted a filtered NTE5 faceplate to the BT master socket in our house, and also hard-wired an ADSL extension cable from the terminals on the back of the faceplate to a downstairs room where the router is. The setup has been working great, all thanks to the great info I found on this site previously.

The office location is now about to move to another floor at the top of the house so I'd like to know if it's possible/the best way to run another cat5 cable carrying the adsl signal to another outlet point.

Is it OK to connect 2 pairs of wires to each IDC terminal in the faceplate ?
Should I add a junction box on the ADSL extension cable and branch off from there ?

For simplicities sake I know I could remove the old extension, but I'd like to have the option of having 2 points that I can use as required for the router.

Any help and opinions much appreciated ...
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Black Sheep

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Re: running more than one adsl extension from a nte5 faceplate
« Reply #1 on: December 03, 2012, 06:44:02 PM »

Hmm ?? good question about the possibility of a 'Teed' ADSL circuit. IE- 2 separate extensions. In all honesty, I'm not sure how, if at all, it would affect the circuit ?? Maybe B*Cat or Ezzer etc, might be able to enlighten us with 'reflection' thesis ??

Either way, I thought it worth pointing out, that OR no longer utilise the 'faceplate' with the two IDC connections that give scope to add a DSL extension socket,  exactly as you have it at the moment. We have to plug the RJ11 jack-plug directly into the SSFP (front plate), then fit the wiring and associated data-socket where requested to.

The reason being that there is no demarcation point as such for the DSL signal. In other words, (using your set-up as an example), you could accidentally damage the data-socket wiring, and be left unable to have a 'test socket' to try a router in, in order to isolate where the fault lies. OR therefore had to pick up the tab for what is effectively your wiring. It didn't take long for the bean-counters to revert back to the jack-plug type install, for data extensions. It may not look as aesthetic, but should a fault develop on your data extension, you at least have the opportunity to unplug it and connect your router direct to the master socket.

I realise I'm typing the word 'you', but I mean it as in the royal 'you'. Just so other readers of the forum are aware of protocols.  :)

As you seem up to the job, could you not install some kind of switching system to the two data-extentions, so that they are in-situ but not 'Teed' in ??   
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burakkucat

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Re: running more than one adsl extension from a nte5 faceplate
« Reply #2 on: December 03, 2012, 07:14:23 PM »

You should be aware that by connecting another xDSL extension to the relevant IDCs on the SSFP will result in a performance loss. This is due to the other extension, the one not currently in use, will act as a bridged tap [1][2][3] across the pair.

The simplest way to provision the xDSL service to the new office location would be to disconnect the existing extension pair from the SSFP and connect in the new extension. Just leave the old pair tucked away (and labelled) for possible future re-use.

For interest, two images of the Hlog graphs for the same circuit are attached. The first shows a bridged tap is present, the second shows the absence of the bridged tap.

[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bridge_tap
[2] http://www.jdsu.com/ProductLiterature/sctpsbridgedtap_an_tfs_tm_ae.pdf
[3] http://documents.exfo.com/appnotes/anote233-ang.pdf
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simo_petar

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Re: running more than one adsl extension from a nte5 faceplate
« Reply #3 on: December 03, 2012, 09:58:06 PM »

Thanks both,
 very interesting data and common sense once you're informed :) I must admit i can't read the graphs to see the potential for fault, so any further enlightenment would be useful. But as I've had a stable and smooth connection running Over the last 18 months I'd obviously like to keep it that way. Re-wiring to the new extension seems a better way to go.

The RJ11 on the front of the faceplate is currently unused. I presume the same lack of termination happen if i plugged a 2nd extension through there ?



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burakkucat

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Re: running more than one adsl extension from a nte5 faceplate
« Reply #4 on: December 03, 2012, 10:38:33 PM »

The RJ11 on the front of the faceplate is currently unused. I presume the same lack of termination happen if i plugged a 2nd extension through there ?

Yes, you are correct.  :)

With regard to the graphs, there are two features which 'scream' "bridged tap" to an experienced eye. The first, most obvious one, is that 'valley' centred, in this case, on tone 1380. The other indicator is the pronounced 'roll' on the third section of the curve, tones 2800 - 3300 and 3900 - 4090.

Tone 1380 is equivalent to (1380 * 4.3125) + (4.3125 / 2) kHz = 5953 kHz. The impedance mismatch, caused by that bridged tap, is essentially producing a basic 'notch filter' tuned to 5.9 MHz.

(b*cat waves a paw, in a friendly fashion, in the direction of B*Sheep:angel:  )
« Last Edit: December 03, 2012, 10:42:41 PM by burakkucat »
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Black Sheep

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Re: running more than one adsl extension from a nte5 faceplate
« Reply #5 on: December 04, 2012, 07:19:19 AM »

 ;D
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simo_petar

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Re: running more than one adsl extension from a nte5 faceplate
« Reply #6 on: December 04, 2012, 09:18:42 AM »

Whoa ! thats quite a lot to chew on. I think I'll take the good advice and re-route the extension. Thanks for the detail though

S
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Ezzer

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Re: running more than one adsl extension from a nte5 faceplate
« Reply #7 on: December 04, 2012, 06:10:26 PM »

I've had this before more than once.
Typicaly where an ssfp was fitted to the nte with a data extention to get the dsl to a router in one office.

I fitted a 2nd data extention kit needed to get a router working in a different room, leaving the old extention kit in situ. If the customer wanted to switch back to the other original extention then they can unplug one and plug in the other. leaving which ever unused extention completely disconnected from the whet wiring.

As you have the DSl extention hard wired I would disconnect this from the IDC leaving the wires free in the socket in case you need to reuse them, then connect the new DSL extention

If you think it's going to be a case of switching between one and the other extention on a not infrequent basis then maby converting this so you plug in the extentions with an RJ11 into a typical ssfp would be better.

Although this would mean fitting a RJ11 plug on the end of the cable, and I would imagine you won't have enough slack on your existing cable to do this and still fit the plug in the front plate. so maby either a very short extention into a new jack with an rj11 socket. This giving you enough slack to use the existing cable with an rj11 plug.

Otherwise Black sheep's idea of a switch. I used to have an 8 pole double throw switch fitted inside my test nte

(so I could put an rf3 in and out of the circuit for testing at the flick of a switch. And if the rf3 was off then its completely disconnected from the circuit. Oh and Blacksheep...I had one in my DACS remote, with input and output jacks for the test leads. and butt phone. to go between B1 & B2 I just flicked the little switch on the end. Very handy, especialy when up a pole or in a confined area)

This might work fitted in a junction box  http://www.maplin.co.uk/4pdt-toggle-switch-2343 Its a smaller version of what I used an 8pdt.

The whle problem is that anything tee'd off the wiring is an potential for interference and if you imagine the wires like a small brook. Any ripples (the dsl signal) would flow along the waters surface. If there is a small bit of water forking off to a dead end, then the ripples would reflect back from the end and further reflect back on to the original ripples in the main bit of water. You'll see the original ripples with other ripples comming back interfering. anything tee-d off would cause this with any signal in the wiring. Just as mentioned with the Bridged Tap.
This is a common problem caused by extention wiring in a typical home telephone network. So it's not just interference which internal wiring throws up for DSL
Whats even worse I've found is if the internal wiring comes back on itself, forming a ring. Just about guarenteed to cause a loss in performance

So if you have the means to keep your DSL signal running along one pair of wires as simply as possible with as little added to it as possible, the better.

So I would avoid leaving the old dsl extention connected, especialy as its unlikely that you'll need to switch from one to the other often
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simo_petar

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Re: running more than one adsl extension from a nte5 faceplate
« Reply #8 on: December 04, 2012, 06:44:19 PM »

Thanks for taking the time to put in a detailed response. Weighing up the options Ive decided to disconnect the existing extension and re-route to the new point. I've already ordered the kit from the top guys at Clarity ( can't resist a plug as they're so good to deal with). As an aside the dsl extension also carries a pots signal in the other wire pairs of the cat 5 cable. As i've found i don't plug anything into the phone extension socket i'll not bother wiring it into the new extension also - presuming from what you've said it causes a potential for a similar performance loss on the voice side of things ..?..
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Black Sheep

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Re: running more than one adsl extension from a nte5 faceplate
« Reply #9 on: December 04, 2012, 06:50:26 PM »

Wow !! I love that 'Ripple' analogy, Ezz mi' old mucker !!! I'm surely gonna pinch that for myself to use on EU's. It's a lovely, simple way of explaining it.

My remote DACS (which in fact is an internal one, bastardised for testing purposes) has two NTE5's screwed to the actual casing for ease of checking for B1 and B2. Not got involved with any DACS'ing for ages to be honest. Either providing DACS, or actual de-DACS'ing !! Used to hate de-DACS work as it invariably meant pushing a pair up to a DP that for obvious reasons, had previously had a shortfall !!
Routing solutions/Planning notes on the job were always incorrect, and it became a real challenge to fulfil the actual task. I often wonder how many 'de-DACS' tasks, would have come to fruition under todays high-pressure stats-mad environment ???  ::)

Well, congrats to me for going completely off-topic, but I think the OP has probably got the gist of what is needed to obtain a 2nd DSL extension ?? :)
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simo_petar

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Re: running more than one adsl extension from a nte5 faceplate
« Reply #10 on: December 04, 2012, 07:05:39 PM »

Yes thanks - i'll take the more direct route for now. Ditto the comments on the ripple analogy.
S
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Ezzer

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Re: running more than one adsl extension from a nte5 faceplate
« Reply #11 on: December 04, 2012, 07:24:45 PM »

Simo, There isn't a problem with pots as any such issues we can't hear. The digital signal is so fine and rapid it's like (uh... must ...stop.... anaologies)...Pots is like a ship, the waves are small by comparison unless in a huge storm so a ship dosn pitch much if at all. but a Duck would be bobbing up and down in sea waves (I wonder if they ever get sea sick  :hmm:)

BlackSheep. I used the DACS less and less, and yes I hated them too. I think everyone did. I used the switch with jacks so it was slimmer than straping an nte or two on. and it was easyer to switch between B1 &2. Up a pole I could have the 'Golden" RU behind me and just flick the switch. Or checking stuff on the frame . the switch and jack was fitted to the little lid with a bit of wiring and solder behind.

to fit the switch and rf3 inside an nte2000 with back box required some reworking but it looked neat and worked really well, never mind the curiosity form other engineers when they spotted the switch.
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