Kitz Forum
Broadband Related => Telephony Wiring + Equipment => Topic started by: chris6273 on January 26, 2011, 05:21:21 AM
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Hi guys,
I have a question which I have stumbled upon time and time again:
Scenario:
From memory, when we first got a telephone line installed (Back in the days of the Post Office running things I think) our line was terminated at a 'External block terminal no.18 - see http://www.telephonesuk.co.uk/images/BT18.jpg ). It still is but as far as I can remember, that was where (Back then) we were told that's where their responsibility ends and then it's our responsibility. We had the old 'Fixed Plate' socket and no 'Master Socket'.
Question:
Does my memory serve me correct and because of the age of the install, BT's responsibility ends at the terminal block?
OR
Has it all changed and BT's responsibility now ends at the 'Master Socket'?
Thanks for your answers :)
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I've worked for BT coming up for 25yrs, but the first 3 yrs were on 'Power & BES' as a sparky. Therefore I can't comment on where the demarcation point of old was. I have to say though, I'd be very surprised if it was at the BT18 !!!! That would mean you were responsible for the 'Lead-in' and the Line Jack Unit ??. Can't see that as being the case.
Fast forward to today, and we (Openreach, on behalf of your SP) are responsible up to the Master Socket (NTE5). If you have the old-style internal master socket (2/1A, 2/2A, 4/1A etc etc), you will not be charged if a fault on the line is caused by any of the extention wiring or sockets in the premises, as you have no way of legally isolating them. With the NTE5, you can remove the front plate (where all the extention wiring should be connected), and plug your phone into the 'Test socket' in the back plate of the NTE5. Obviously, if you have dial-tone in the Test Socket but lose it when the front plate is reconnected, you have a fault on your 'own equipment/wiring'.
As an aside, as well as replacing and bringing your internal Master Socket up to par, we should also change the old BT18 for a new BT66. The underground wires will be 'grease crimped' through to the 'Lead-in' rather than connected on screw terminals. It makes for a better, longer-lasting connection, as oxidisation and a build up of verdigris causes problems on screw-terminal connections.
HTH
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So does that mean that because I do not have a master socket but a Line Jack and a BT18 box that I am still responsible from the BT18? If not, where is the demarcation point now?
Also, is there any chance BT would replace the BT18 free of charge?
Cheers
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So does that mean that because I do not have a master socket but a Line Jack and a BT18 box that I am still responsible from the BT18? If not, where is the demarcation point now?
Also, is there any chance BT would replace the BT18 free of charge?
Cheers
In effect, (and as a general rule of thumb), if you dont have a NTE5 Master Socket, then you dont have ANY demarcation point !!!! Therefore, Openreach will fault the circuit, install a new NTE5 and if any of the extention wires/sockets are proving to be faulty, they will leave them disconnected all free-of-charge. Once you have the NTE5, you then have a demarcation point for any future faults that may occur.
Regarding the BT18. It will probably only be replaced if a fault is found to be within the box. It really depends on the type of engineer you get and his skill-set. This will in turn dictate what stores he has available on his van. If ypou do get an engineer willing to change it, even though there's no indication of a fault within the box, it will also be done FOC as, like your internal sockets, these are now obsolete.
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Ok.
So, bearing in mind that I have an old Line Jack socket and there is no demarcation point, am I free to replace the cable from the BT18 to the Line Jack and then replace the line jack for a shiny new NTE5 without breaking the law? (The NTE5 socket I have my eyes on, has BT Openreach on the front of it so would it also be legal for ME to install this?)
Thanks again for your quick answers :)
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No, if there's no demarcation point then BT own all the wiring. They are the only people who can change it.
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Ok.
So, bearing in mind that I have an old Line Jack socket and there is no demarcation point, am I free to replace the cable from the BT18 to the Line Jack and then replace the line jack for a shiny new NTE5 without breaking the law? (The NTE5 socket I have my eyes on, has BT Openreach on the front of it so would it also be legal for ME to install this?)
Thanks again for your quick answers :)
To repeat what I said above .................. In effect, (and as a general rule of thumb), if you dont have a NTE5 Master Socket, then you dont have ANY demarcation point !!!! Therefore, Openreach will fault the circuit, install a new NTE5 and if any of the extention wires/sockets are proving to be faulty, they will leave them disconnected all free-of-charge. Once you have the NTE5, you then have a demarcation point for any future faults that may occur.
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Or put another way:-
Once the NTE 5 is fitted, BT - in their infinite generosity - give away their old internal wiring of your house complete with all bad-practice wiring and faults therein.
However the positive side of this policy is that there is now a clean interface and the ability to maximise the ADSL line performance at a much lower cost than paying BT for fault finding.
Kind regards,
Walter
EDIT The above entry is not a reflection upon the abilities of hard-pressed BT O engineers who have sometimes near-impossible tasks in very difficult circumstances.
House wiring is often modified or damaged over time and the installation of a NTE 5 by BT O without star wiring is an excellent solution which thereafter isolates house wiring problems.
It also allows end users to repair or improve their own internal wiring at minimal expense and without the sometimes tortuous procedures (and possible subsequent costs) of fault reporting via their ISPs.
K R
Walter
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Or put another way:-
Once the NTE 5 is fitted, BT - in their infinite generosity - give away their old internal wiring of your house complete with all bad-practice wiring and faults therein.
However the positive side of this policy is that there is now a clean interface and the ability to maximise the ADSL line performance at a much lower cost than paying BT for fault finding.
Kind regards,
Walter
Thats a bit of a carte-blanche statement Walter !!.
Of course star-wiring of extentions existed pre-DSL. Why wouldn't it ??? The 4Khz circuits would work over wet string, and nobody could foresee what the future had in store, unless your goodself could Walter ??
Also, the extention wiring was only legally guaranteed for 12months from date of install. The GPO and subsequently BT ,for many years continued to 'fault' the extention wiring nearly always free of charge. When BT were 'sold off' and became a PLC, was it not obvious to you that we were now a share-holding company that has to show profit year-in, year-out ??? The first of many changes was the 'free' faulting service had to stop.
The OP is commenting on GPO line plant and subsequent wiring/sockets from over 25 years ago. You ring your plumber and tell him that radiator he fitted over 25years ago isn't working, and that you want him to repair it free.
You may be an old hand on this DG Walter, but comments like that aren't necessary and I'm sure you'd be offended if i said all 3-phase mains jointers are frickin' useless.
What a buffoon I am !!! I have been looking for an 'edit' option, while all the time it's 'modify'. Must have had a senior moment as it didn't register with me at all. After 'speaking' with Walter and seeing his modification, I realise I rather jumped in at the deep end without a moments thought. The perils of interpreting the written word !!! A topic I've moderated myself before now, and then go and fall into it head-long !!!! I'll leave my full post up as a reminder to myself not to be so rash in future.
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:(
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Don't be sad jeff .... ;)
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I took a look inside the BT18 yesterday and I was SHOCKED with what I saw!!!
Pictures:
A look without taking the cover off:
(https://forum.kitz.co.uk/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg195.imageshack.us%2Fimg195%2F1750%2Fdsc01606q.jpg&hash=2c5875bf3f6b99cd5316609eced123d20b263676)
A look inside:
(https://forum.kitz.co.uk/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg690.imageshack.us%2Fimg690%2F4509%2Fdsc01607in.jpg&hash=6cfe2abd457096e224382a8f8af928ca5b7b3df4)
Closer Look:
(https://forum.kitz.co.uk/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg534.imageshack.us%2Fimg534%2F9049%2Fdsc01608e.jpg&hash=57df3bf3a9103139f9268a27f59348e02953a82e)
Looks as though the wires are not connected to the terminals but are terminated with those blue things.
Does it look as though it could do with a replace by BT bearing in mind the corrosion and mess in there? (I haven't mentioned I get quite a lot of errors on my line even though it syncs at 8128kbps so i'm guessing this box's condition is quite likely the culprit?)
Any other suggestions apart from the above?
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The blue things are the obsolete BT "blue bean" crimps which should be replaced as I believe they are a dissimilar metal which can corrode - especially in damp conditions such as yours.
Kind regards,
Walter
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Don't be sad jeff .... ;)
We're meant to be a happy friendly forum ;)
Anyhow back on track to help the OP.. I'll let razpag resume, since he knows his stuff.
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Don't be sad jeff .... ;)
We're meant to be a happy friendly forum ;)
Anyhow back on track to help the OP.. I'll let razpag resume, since he knows his stuff.
Thanks Kitz. I may have gone slightly OTT with my reply to Walter, but I have to defend myself and other good engineers, (and the company to a degree) when sweeping statements about quality of work are made. Believe me, the draconian measures we are scrutinised by in every department of Openreach, would open your eyes !!! Disciplinary cases (often ending in termination of employment) are becoming frequent, due to measures not being met. The halcyon days of just botching a job are long gone.
Walter, I hope we can move on from this as you seem a very educated man whom I can learn a lot from. Please take this as the hand-of-friendship mate. ;D
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Hi
@razpaq
quote In effect, (and as a general rule of thumb), if you dont have a NTE5 Master Socket, then you dont have ANY demarcation point !!!!Therefore, Openreach will fault the circuit, install a new NTE5 and if any of the extention wires/sockets are proving to be faulty, they will leave them disconnected all free-of-charge. Once you have the NTE5, you then have a demarcation point for any future faults that may occur.
Is this the case even for Line Jack sockets ?. I still have one of these ,been in situ for about 40 years .
Regards Jeff
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Hi Jeff
If we're both assuming "Line Jack Sockets" are one and the same thing, then absolutely yes.
As I've mooted previously, there HAS to be a demarcation between 'our' wiring and 'your' wiring.
This *demarcation point* will be the first socket that is connected to the BT Openreach wiring that enters the premises. If it isn't an NTE5-type socket, (whereby there is a detachable front plate that all extention wiring should be connected to), then it will be what I would call a 'Line Jack Socket'.
If you have this old-type set up, you are quite within your rights to ask your SP to make an appointment for us to attend F.O.C. to bring the installation up to par. A couple of reasons are, 1) That you need to isolate some or all of your extention wiring to gain a faster DSL speed, or 2) You have purchased a Service Specific Front Plate (ADSL Nation, etc) and without an NTE5, it is impossible to legally fit it.
I hope we're talking about the same thing here Jeff, and I don't mean to sound like I'm teaching my granny to suck eggs, just thought I'd try and make it clear for the folk out there who are unsure.
*The latest New Build properties actually have the demarcation point OUTSIDE the premises, bringing us in line with the Gas,Lekky and Water industries.*
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@ Razpag re your * note,
Unless there have been modifications, I believe that the external units do not include a circuit isolation facility so the fastidious are obliged to buy their own internal sub-master NTE5 replacement together with an integral filter faceplate.
Kind regards,
Walter
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Walter
Having personally only worked on these outside unite twice, I'm no real expert on them. What I can say, is that there is and isolating 'fuse' (more like a module) that cab be pulled out, which obviously isolates the UG feed from the ongoing internal cable. But this only acts really as a test point for us, as there is no 'Test jack' as such for the EU to plug a phone in. So in effect, yes you are right.
From the info I've read, as this is a relatively newish product (because of this, faults are still negligible) and we don't work on them often, I believe the building contractor is responsible for all wiring beyond this outside isolating unit. In essence, we prove the line is ok to the isolating unit, then ask the EU to contact his builder to carry on with the faulting of the circuit.
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@ Razpag,
That's where some new house buyers could get into a serious pickle !
I will defend you here, by saying that sadly not every builder's electrician is familiar as perhaps they might be with communications wiring arrangements.
Kind regards,
Walter
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;D ;D ;D Touche
You are of course quite right. We often find in the newer houses, that the sparky has star-wired from the point where the master socket is to be sited, or even worse, they will fit a junc. box under the sheet boarding (Its never floorboards anymore !!!) and 'star' out from this inaccessible point. To compound matters, they more often than not will use alarm cable for the telephony circuit, as they generally have the contract to install the alarm as well.
As we know, stranded, non-twisted cable is far from ideal for high-grade circuits. It's going to be frustrating attending DSL faults on these latest new-builds knowing that a couple of hours of work will improve their service, but as 'they' say ............ "Them's the rules".
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Hi
@razpag
quote If we're both assuming "Line Jack Sockets" are one and the same thing, then absolutely yes.
No I don't think we are talking about same thing :)
Please see http://www.kitz.co.uk/adsl/btsockets.htm I have a LJU type .I understood that these were the demarcation point ?.
Regards Jeff
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Hi
@razpag
quote If we're both assuming "Line Jack Sockets" are one and the same thing, then absolutely yes.
No I don't think we are talking about same thing :)
Please see http://www.kitz.co.uk/adsl/btsockets.htm I have a LJU type .I understood that these were the demarcation point ?.
Regards Jeff
I think we ARE talking about the same thing Jeff ??
The LJU's have no demarcation point where you (as an EU) can 'legally' seperate the BT/OR owned wiring (we call it monopoly wiring) and your extention wiring. That's why if there's a service-affecting fault on a circuit that has a LJU as its master socket, we will localise and isolate the offending extention cable causing the fault, and fit the standard NTE5 in place of the LJU, all F.O.C.
If the same situation occured on a circuit with an NTE5 as its master socket, then the SP would be charged by us for attending site, unscrewing the front plate and saying "Your line works OK in the test socket ........... goodbye". This is why the frontplate/test socket is there, as a means for the EU to determine whether the fault lies in their own domain, or on 'our' network.
PS ...... i'm pretty sure the SP will pass the charges onto the End User in cases like these.
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Hi
quote : That's why if there's a service-affecting fault on a circuit that has a LJU as its master socket, we will localise and isolate the offending extention cable causing the fault, and fit the standard NTE5 in place of the LJU, all F.O.C.
This is NOT generally known . ISPs do not give that information . The impression is that if a fault is caused by the user internal wiring then there will be a charge regardless of the fact that there is NO NTE5 is fitted .
Just to clear If I get some connection problem (I haven't got an NTE5) then I would NOT be charged even if something wrong with my internal extensions.The LJU would be replaced with an NTE5.
Regards Jeff
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If the fault is due to 'fair wear and tear', yes.
If you've just had a new carpet fitted and one of the extention wires is caught on the gripper rods, or you've accidentally knocked a vase of water over a socket, (instances along those lines), then we will charge the SP. It's up to them whether they forward the charges onto the EU's.
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Hi,
I’m new to this forum. Pardon me for bumping this thread but I have a similar question to the OP and what I have been told by my ISP and BT flatly contradicts some of the previous posts. So as a non-expert I’m confused.
1. I have a 60 year old property with wiring to match and am having problems with my broadband. The BT wire enters the house and is connected to a connection block (“distribution point”). Four extensions are star wired from that block to various parts of the house, although only 3 are in use normally.
2. An ex BT engineer has examined the house wiring. In his opinion the termination block is non BT and looks suspiciously like an alarm connection block. The extensions are terminated by a variety of different Line Jacks, only 1 of which is a genuine BT one. He cannot identify a master socket. The wiring is therefore obviously not in spec and needs rationalizing.
3. My ISP (Virgin) has told me that the broadband problem could be with my extension wiring. They have warned me that if that is the case the rectification cost will definitely be chargeable. They are adamant that BT would charge.
4. So over to BT Customer Service. They inform me that the cost of rationalizing the line and installing a proper NTE5 will be £430 plus VAT. This is made up of £130 for installing the NTE5 plus £75 per extension for connecting to it. The £30 fee quoted by some for “legalizing” only available if other chargeable work is being done at the same time.
5. I then have 2 subsequent conversations with the people who deal with faults at BT (Indian call centre?). This includes a discussion with a supervisor. To cut a long story short their position is that technically that in the absence of an NTE (either paid for by me or if BT elect to install one at a later date) there is no clear demarcation point and I should treat the BT side of the distribution point as the demarcation line. I am therefore free to disconnect the extensions from the subscriber side of the distribution point as long as I don’t touch the master. Quite how that would be identified is not clear. However they said that my call would be noted and that there would not be any subsequent come back from BT if I did that.
I have carefully logged all these conversations as I’m not entirely sure I trust what I have been told, but at least I asked. I will now get a competent company to install my own NTE type socket on the subscriber side of the DP and wire the extensions from that.
I wish BT had a clear and transparent policy over older (star) wiring. There seems to be a lot of conflicting messages.
Any thoughts?
PS Virgin provide the BB. Phone is with BT
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The first thought is that it will depend what you want to achieve at the end, also how much wiring (legally, post-correction) you're happy to do yourself.
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Hi:
I'm not technically competent so won't do any wiring myself.
My understanding of what needs to be done is to have the facility to be able isolate the extension wiring in the event of problems, and have a test socket for trouble shooting purposes.
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How many of the (currently 4?) sockets do you really need working (must have) short-term (days) and in the long run?
If there was a socket at/near the location of the junction box does that requirement reduce?
Where is the junction box by the way?
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Hi:
1. The junction box is just inside the window of the study screwed to the wall. The BT line comes in between the wall and window frame to connect to the box.
2. Short term I can live with 1 extension (in the study) which is also used by the bb connection. Normally I have two others which are used solely for telephony - one in the kitchen, the other in the bedroom. The fourth could be considered redundant.
3. The extension on the study is closest to the connection box. About 5 feet apart.
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Hmmm, tough call this one BBNovice.
The bottom line is, you have purchased a house and all that comes with it. It's neither your fault the wiring is sub-standard, nor Openreaches. Its like finding your electrical wiring was amiss and expecting your local electrical board to correct it.
The problem lies with the fact that the incoming line meets all the extention wiring in this 'Heath Robinson' type junction box. When you say it looks like an "alarm connecting block", do you mean as in one of those magnetic contacts you see on doors ? The reason I ask is how 'ex' is the 'ex-BT engineer' ?? As junction boxes have changed over the years and he may not be aware of the newer types. Long shot, but it's worth asking.
My honest opinion is, ask for a SFI Broadband engineering visit. The cost of this is picked up by the SP, and they decide if this cost will passed on after reading our (the engineers) report once the job is completed. I can't speak on behalf of the SP's, but if the Broadband part of the circuit is enhanced (ie- a lot quicker speeds and stability) by the removal of star-wiring, then you have a happy end-user without cause for further complaint, and one who will likely be happy to use word-of-mouth to let people know what a great service such-and-such SP provide. Would the SP pass on the £160 cost in this situation ? My guess is they would stand the cost themselves.
The SFI engineer would provide an NTE (demarcation point) as part of the job.
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The junction box is just inside the window of the study screwed to the wall.
A photo of the outside (and inside if you dare) would be of interest. ;)
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Many thanks for the replies razpag and hp sauce.
(1) I’ll try and get a photo and post it tomorrow. I’m not sure I have enough courage to open it up though! In the meantime I’ll try and describe it: Its almost but not quite an oval shape approx 6.5cmx5.5cm. Its cream in colour. The cover is held in with one central screw. There is no logo or other distinguishing marks.
(2) I’m not blaming Openreach for the state of the wiring, or trying to get them to do work for nothing, but I am getting frustrated about how to resolve this in a “legal” fashion yet at a reasonable cost. I’m the customer but appear to be caught between BT and the ISP.
(3) Pardon my ignorance but what is a “SFI Broadband Engineering visit”?
(4) My BB ISP (Virgin) have made it quite clear that their policy would be to pass on the cost of ANY charge BT may make for a visit irrespective of the outcome of that visit in terms of fixing either the original bb fault and/or normalising the star wiring issue. You mention a cost of £160 but is that sum certain? Remember the ludicrous sum BT quoted me just for installing an NTE and so regularize the star wiring. I’ve been in business for many years, but I’ve never before been asked to take on an unquantified financial commitment in return for an uncertain outcome.
I think one of the problems is that ISP margins have become very thin in some product areas. I’m only paying £180 per annum for an up to 8Mb service (but getting 2-3Mb) with unlimited downloads (subject to the usual caveats). Swallowing the cost of just one BT visit is not economical for the ISP.
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1) It sounds like a fully legit BT junction box
2) I think you'll be covered for the cost of work
3) Special Fault Investigation Broadband Engineering. Tasks built to remedy 'No synch', 'Slow speeds', 'Int synch' etc etc ......
4) It wont be BT visiting, but Openreach. We own the wiring and Master Socket from the exchange throught to the premises. If you have a fault on your extention wiring, at the moment you have no legal way to isolate this extention as you don't have the NTE5 Master Socket. This is the angle I would be going from and demand an SFI visit via your SP.
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Thanks for that razpag. I may try that with them tomorrow.
I understand the line you are taking over the "legality" of touching the extension wiring (and hope your stance is correct) although it does not quite tally with what BT told me today as I stated in my original post.
I apologise if I’m appearing a bit frustrated but there is a back story also going on with the ISP regarding the actual BB fault which I didn’t include in my original post in order avoid complicating the issue.
The fault I have with the BB is that intermittently the SNR become unstable and the connection will either freeze or drop. I can see this by looking at the RouterStats graph I have running on my PC. Sometimes reconnection will be impossible for minutes or hours afterwards. Often when this happens you can hear loud noises on the line which stop if the router is turned off. Taking the phone off hook can often also start to make the SNR become very unstable. This has been happening for months now but recently has become more and more frequent.
The ex BT guy who looked at my wiring reckons its OK, but that there is a network issue, possibly a high resistance fault somewhere.
My ISP though seems to want to focus entirely on my internal wiring which it can blame on me. They have not as yet asked BT to investigate the network When I ask what the next step will be if my wiring comes up as clean, and they tell me that the symptoms I describe are indicative of a “port error” at the exchange. So why this focus on my extension wiring?
They seem reluctant to initiate any network checks. I’m biting my tongue and going along with them but its hurting!!
Perhaps I should post this aspect on the ADSL ISSUES part of the forum?
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Are you sure this chap is 'ex BT' ??? He seems to know very little, ie- the oval box which has been around for years is 99% one of ours. Plus, the internal star-wiring is the most likely cause of the SNR dips/poor performance, how can he tell by just looking that all is well with the installation ??
You NEED an SFI visit. Whether your SP passes on the charge is between you and them I'm afraid, but at the moment you have no legal demarcation point, and we have to ensure you do.
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Oval BT junction box? I'd love to see that photo. :-X
(not that it actually makes much difference in the long run)
ISP's concentrate on internal wiring because, statistically it's most likely. And to be BRUTALLY HONEST yours is a prime candidate.
Does the box look like this, which is quite normal? (https://forum.kitz.co.uk/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.skyuser.co.uk%2Fforum%2Fattachments%2Fcabling-faceplate-help%2F859d1216983428-old-bt-master-&hash=f0513424ae78f4f56ac4f247ff5b210884683c01)
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Thats the very one I think (hope) the OP is talking about HP.
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PS ..... there could well be an HR type fault on the line, but again, the SFI engineer would remedy that as well. Sorry for fast and short replies, am busy with other things as well as looking in on here. :)
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Razpaq, you and I are probably coming at this from different directions.
I'm not a BT guy but I (dare I say) know a hell of a lot about phone systems and domestic wiring. (blame my corporate IT/comms background and many many years of "managing" BT :-X )
Personally I'd be prepared to "sort it out" if it were my wiring, leaving a relatively simple setup for SFI and/or ISP to investigate.
HOWEVER the OP has said he's not prepared to touch wiring even when he's allowed to.....
So, I'm likely to lose interest and what you advise is looking a very good option. ;)
His wiring is almost certainly a broadband disaster area. :o
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;D @HP
I understand where you are coming from mate, I however can't really afford the luxury of giving out 'illicit' instructions, because of my professional role. We do both concur that, whatever the weather, the star-wiring is completely detrimental to DSL signals regardless of possible secondary 'HR disses'.
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because of my professional role.
Absolutely. :police:
You sound like the sort of "man on the ground" that, as a BT customer we would hang onto (keep in touch with and look after) once we found you.
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;D ;D I don't take much looking after neither HP. ;D ;D
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Here's the picture. The box is similar to the picture of the junction box posted previously but slightly different - ie there is no embossing on the cover around the central screw. The previous one looks identical to one my mother has next to her window.
[attachment deleted by admin]
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Intriguing, not like any BT/PO box I've ever seen.
What's it like inside, a close-up photo of that would be of interest..... ;)
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Good day,
Apologies for not replying earlier but the BB has been out for most of the day (the SNR had a lovely regular sine wave pattern at one point – discovered that the SNR was echoing the Call Minder tone!)
I hope the picture I posted was what you wanted – it took ages to do as the batteries went on the camera and I had to go out and get some spares (I’m having a mare today). Sorry but I'm not brave enough to open it up and take a picture - I dread to think what horrors may be in there!
I can’t understand why this problem appears to be getting progressively worse. The BB has been stable for several years before this started to happen and the wiring has not been modified or touched.
I was staggered this afternoon to get call out of the blue from a person who said they were an in house BT engineer based in the UK. He was replying to an email I had sent BT a while ago about these wiring issues. He was very helpful and confirmed that (a) the exorbitant charges I was quoted if I elect to request installation of an NTE and connection of all the extensions to it is correct (b) installation would be free if it turns out the fault is in the BT network (c) and most surprising of all that the world of star wiring is indeed murky and that the advice I was given by BT the other day (that the demarcation boundary could be at the infamous junction box) was probably correct.
I have found somebody who would be able to do the wiring – as I said I’m not competent to do it. His suggestion (over the phone so may change his opinion if he actually sees the installation himself) would be to initially totally disconnect 3 of the 4 four extensions temporarily. Then connect a “third party” NTE to the subscriber side of the junction box. Run it like that for a period to see if the BB problem goes away to
determine once and for all if the star wiring is causing the issue or not. If the problem continues, reconnect everything and ask for a BT visit. This would on the face of it appear to be a legitimate approach if what I have been told about the demarcation line being at the junction box is correct.
On a different tangent I assume that Openreach engineers would be aware of what type of wiring would be in the house before arriving and whether a proper Openreach NTE was installed ? I’m assuming that the record keeping of installs by Openreach is sounder than BT’s !
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Well, I hold my hands up on my previous comments about your 'ex-BT engineer' ....... that certainly isn't an Openreach/BT junction box at all. I can't determine if there's 2 wires entering it from the left ,or just the one. Don't suppose it matters really, as there could be other wires leaving the junc box that are 'chased into' the plaster, or exited through the wall at the rear of the box etc etc ....
I'm really in a grey area on giving advice, as to how to approach your SP in relation to an SFI visit !! As far as I am aware, disruption of DSL services caused by old-style star-wiring , that was installed to provide up to 4Khz POTS, would be remedied by Openreach especially where the EU has NO licit demarcation point. The bit I am unsure of (as I don't have any involvement in it), is whether the SP or OR pick up the tab, or as mooted, it is forwarded to yourself ?? My own personal belief was that the SP would most likely foot the bill in order to give the EU a 'great customer experience' and hopefully achieve fault-free broadband services with them for a long time to come. As I say though, it's only my take on it.
Regarding your comment about OR being aware of the wiring lay-out pre-visit. Absolutely not I'm afraid. The only records we keep pertain to the date of the install, routings, billing addresses, contacts, H&S issues, etc etc .......
Not much help I'm afraid, but it's really between you and your SP as to how to obtain a solution. ;D
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Thanks razpag for your useful contributions . At least I have much better background information than I did previously which will help me fight my corner (not sure who with yet though!).
I'm surprised about what you say about OR plant recording. Unless I'm mistaken they have only existed since 2006 so I though they would have had systems in place from day 1 to record all the kit and wiring they have installed in order and tried to avoid the huge "information gap" BT has about its plant pre 2006. Or am I being naive?
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There's no point in recording the info really, as we are only responsible for the wiring up to and including the Master Socket. Otherwise referred to as 'Monopoly Wiring'. All extention wiring is the responsibility of the EU, and to be honest, it's up to them to be aware of what they have and where it is situated. The only 'wiring diagrams' we keep are usually in large installations like factories, and even then it will only be records of where the distribution boxes are fitted, not the circuits spurred off from these boxes.
Can you imagine the data-bases required to record all wiring 'runs' of every house and business premises in the UK ?? Plus, these records would become outdated pretty quickly as wires are added/removed by DIY'ers, swopping to Virgin Media or swopping back and this is just residential properties. Business dwellings can have a high turnover of occupants and their own specific needs and they generally have their own business sytems engineers fitting extentions/data cabling where required.
As I say, we only work up to the Master Socket, unless instructed to do so otherwise, and these sockets are generally very, very close to where the outside wire enters the premises. :)
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Sorry, I think I may have expressed myself badly.
You are right it would be madness to try and record all extension wiring but as you rightly point out OR have responsibility up to and including the NTE. So I would have thought OR would have at least kept full records of the NTE's it has installed since 2006 (and perhaps the wiring back from that point into the network) so that the engineer would have a head start about what he might encounter before he arrived at the premises.
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I personally can't see the point of 'logging and recording' where each and every NTE5 (nationwide) is installed, when 99% of the time it can be seen instantly, or traced physically within seconds/minutes ?
We have extensive records of the Underground/Overhead plant from the exchanges to the distribution points (ie- Wooden Poles/Hollow Poles,Wall Blocks,Internal blocks,BT66's and so on).
These records have been in existence since the first cable was laid, they even show the position of the underground cable in relation to where it sits inside a Duct compared to other cables. In other words, they are very comprehensive. ;D
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Just thought I would conclude my contributions to this thread by saying that (hopefully!) the problem appears to be fixed and it was NOT my house wiring to blame. A long story, but I finally managed to force an SFI visit from Openreach out of my ISP.
Result was that my house wiring was given a clean bill of health (!!) but the Openreach engineer did install a proper new NTE5. He said the symptoms were classic of a HR fault in the network and couldn't understand why my ISP had previously ordred a "lift and shift" - which had failed to achieve a resolution.
However all the tests he did on the line came up clean (although he was suspicious about some very low error rates on some particular tests when he expected higher error rate to be reported) but he found nothing definite and no HR fault was indicated by the test equipment. So he was on the point of departure when the fault suddenly re-appeared. He repeated his diagnostics but they again came up totally clean. So he then did it the hard way and changed a number of connections somewhere out in the network/exchange and the fault then disappeared - (so far touch wood!). This took him some time and luckily for me he ignored calls from his boss to move onto the next job!
BTW my ISP had also previously tried to "fix" the fault by capping the line at 1Mb. In consequence the SNR went up to 30db and the synch speed down to 1Mb. It was soon after the Openreach engineer had asked them to remove the cap (and the SNR reverted bak to the usual 8-11db level) that the fault re-appeared. Were they trying to "drown out" the fault by dramatically increasing the SNR?
Anyway the final score seems to be Openreach 1 - ISP 0
I suppose the other moral to the story is not to treat diagnostic tests as infallible.
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Anyway the final score seems to be Openreach 1 - ISP 0
I suppose the other moral to the story is not to treat diagnostic tests as infallible.
So, if you are now happy, it's a case of "All's well that ends well." ;)
(I would have liked to have seen inside that junction box . . . )
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As a non expert I'm afraid the inside of the box will forever remain a mystery to me. The engineer confirmed that it was not a BT type junction box and he also thought it might be a wiring block for an alarm system. I had a peek inside when he opened it up and it was veritable rats nest of wires crowded into the box. After a lot of frowning he figured it all out and the box remains in place as he thought it was good enough to reuse. The NTE is wired directly into this junction box. The extensions can now be wired from the NTE as normal practice using the wiring in place (however I agreed with the engineer not to physically connect them at the moment whilst the trouble shooting was in progress due to the very tricky nature of the broadband fault). The wiring for them travels back from the NTE to the mysterious junction box. However they are not screwed into the junction box terminals in the box - its merely used as a cover. Instead the incoming extension wiring is connected directly to the outgoing extension wiring using gel clips (is that the right term?) and just hidden within the junction box. The extension wiring then travels outside of the house, back inside again in the kitchen, and then meanders all over the house as it did before - this is still an unholy mess but I can now get somebody in to sort that issue out at my leisure once I'm sure the broadband fault is resolved.
So a simple and neat solution. There is a clear demarcation point between BT responsibilities and the householder with the installation of a NTE, and the extension wiring runs from the NTE following legitimate practice.
Whilst he was at it, he opened up another BT box which is stationed outside the house where the BT duct emerges from the ground. I don't think this box could have been opened for about 30 years, and the corrosion on the terminal block had to be seen to be believed. So he completely remade new connections inside this box as well.
But despite the visible state of the wiring the fault was not finally resolved until changes were made out in the network/exchange. So I suppose you could say my broadband was happily surviving on very crappy internal house wiring.
24 hours and the connection has remained solid at 4mb synch, and 11.8db SNR which I'm very happy with bearing in mind the distance I live from the exchange. So yes I'm a happy bunny (he said tempting fate) !!
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The wiring for them travels back from the NTE to the mysterious junction box. However they are not screwed into the junction box terminals in the box - its merely used as a cover. Instead the incoming extension wiring is connected directly to the outgoing extension wiring using gel clips (is that the right term?) and just hidden within the junction box. The extension wiring then travels outside of the house, back inside again in the kitchen, and then meanders all over the house as it did before - this is still an unholy mess but I can now get somebody in to sort that issue out at my leisure once I'm sure the broadband fault is resolved.
Ah, that explains it nicely. And yes, from your photo, I thought there were two cables coming in to (the left of) that junction box.
Gel crimps, I believe, is the correct terminology.
24 hours and the connection has remained solid at 4mb synch, and 11.8db SNR which I'm very happy with bearing in mind the distance I live from the exchange.
I shall keep my paws crossed, for you. :thumbs:
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bbnovice ..... nice result pal.
burakkucat ..... Gel Crimps 8A and 8B aaaaactually. ;D
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burakkucat ..... Gel Crimps 8A and 8B aaaaactually. ;D
Thank you for helping with my education of all things Openreach, BT and GPO, which started as an amateur over 45 years ago by reading the classic text, Telephony (Atkinson), and, later, every issue of the POEEJ that was available in my University library. ;)
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burakkucat ..... Gel Crimps 8A and 8B aaaaactually. ;D
Thank you for helping with my education of all things Openreach, BT and GPO, which started as an amateur over 45 years ago by reading the classic text, Telephony (Atkinson), and, later, every issue of the POEEJ that was available in my University library. ;)
;D ;D Hell, with all that reading you could probably teach me a thing or two !!! ;D ;D
How I wish we had the ethics of yesterday applied to the technology and processes of today !! Things would be soooooo much easier for all concerened. Now, where's that thyristor gone for my old 706 series dial phone ??
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How I wish we had the ethics of yesterday applied to the technology and processes of today !! Things would be soooooo much easier for all concerened.
You sentiment is very appealing and I will second it. :)
Now, where's that themistor gone for my old 706 series dial phone ??
I no longer have any 700 series telephones but I do know that I have one (maybe two) thermistors in my grotto . . .
On top of a small bookcase, over by my "reading" armchair, sits a fully refurbished bright red 300 series phone (dated 1956). I only ever use it to answer incoming calls -- I don't want the delicate modern exchange to get confused with the loop-disconnect dialling pulses. ;D
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How I wish we had the ethics of yesterday applied to the technology and processes of today !! Things would be soooooo much easier for all concerened.
You sentiment is very appealing and I will second it. :)
Now, where's that thermistor gone for my old 706 series dial phone ??
I no longer have any 700 series telephones but I do know that I have one (maybe two) thermistors in my grotto . . .
On top of a small bookcase, over by my "reading" armchair, sits a fully refurbished bright red 300 series phone (dated 1956). I only ever use it to answer incoming calls -- I don't want the delicate modern exchange to get confused with the loop-disconnect dialling pulses. ;D
There was me thinking I'd found out Batmans true identity !!!!! ;D ;D
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Batmans
Increment the first letter and you get . . . catman. ::)
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My apologies ....... I assume it's Comissioner Garfield who rings you on the 'Catphone' ?? ::)
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:lol:
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This thread intrigued me, as it's an issue we have here and I have never been able to even get close to a sensible answer to this.
My last attempt to do so was to email an ISP who shall remain nameless. Who then chose to completely ignore the two questions I asked.
This would be for the purpose of having an ADSL backup to 3G in case it goes down as once, it did, for 48 hours. I can tether my O2 mobile and just about get by with 1Meg, so that suffices, but a fixed line solution should be better.
The email is self explanatory. Sorry about the backslashes, that's how the response came back.
>We cancelled our landline years ago as it can\'t carry a broadband
>service. It can have ADSL but only at 1.5Mbps which is useless to us,
>so we use 3G which is 4x faster.
>
>Now given the line is short (3682 metres confirmed from BT database,
>2500m straight line from exchange), I\'m told this might be because the
>house has a \"star wiring\" configuration (which it has). For example
>you can only get sync on one of the two \"master sockets\"
>(from the 1950s or 1960s perhaps) - the longer circuit that doesn\'t
>have the unnecessary GPO box inline - it\'s all pretty ancient.
>
>Now if I sign up for your offer that\'s on at the moment to get the
>line set back up just as a backup to the 3G for if/when it goes down:
>
>And I choose the \"I don\'t have a BT socket\" option and pay the
>49.99 for a new installation..
>
>What happens?
>
>1. The existing line is used, nobody attends, the wiring remains and I
>end up paying 49.99 for nothing; 2. Someone comes round and whether or
>not they use the existing pair that comes here, a new NTE socket is
>installed and all the extraneous wiring and GPO boxes are removed
>possibly enabling the line to carry a broadband service (since in
>theory a 3682m line should be able to achieve one)
>
>When we had the line we investigated getting an NTE put in to see if
>the line was salvageable, but daft figures were quoted for this, it
>would be cheaper to get a \"new line\". But therein lies the question.
>What\'s a \"new line\"?
>
>I realise there are no promises about speed and I doubt it will
>ourperform 3G even with a perfect circuit over that distance (suspect
>lines are poor), but if it could manage 3Mbps it would be a useful
>backup.
>
>Just to confirm: we have no current provider and the line hasn\'t been
>used for over three years.
>
>One final question: if the broadband and phone are ordered as one, and
>you can\'t install the broadband because there\'s a filthy great DACS
>box on the pole which our line might go through - can you confirm
>everything is refunded and the entire contract is voided - and I\'m not
>going to be stuck with a phone line I have no need of for a year (we
>don\'t even possess a landline handset any more, we use mobiles and
>VOIP)
>
>Thanks.
======== Reply Below ========
Dear Mark,
Thank you for your communication.
If the line in the property is usable on our network, we should be able to reactivate the line without further charges. If this is not possible, then the £49.99 charge would apply and an engineer would visit to install you a new line.
We would do our best to ensure that the line could support broadband before we install a new service to ensure that this situation will not occur. If there is a DACS in place, we would look at removing this so the service can be installed.
I hope this helps. If we can be of further assistance, please do not hesitate to contact us further.
Regards
--
That's one of the cheaper ISPs however two of the most expensive ones didn't do any better with their responses either.
I guess I could just remove all the internal kit back to the dropwire since we're not service subscribers and it's on our property and then a new NTE would "have to" be fitted on signup ("I do not have a BT Socket"), but what I think would probably happen is the line would be regarded as activated remotely even though there are only two unconnected bare wires at the other end (that's what happened initially, as we have two drop wires and the second one was cut through internally by a previous occupant, and that's the line they connected, it took weeks to sort out)
Does anyone know the answer? This is so daft, as there's a line BT could be making some money from that has been lying unused for over three years now thanks to this seemingly intractable problem.
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Hello Mark and welcome to the forum,
Could you take a series of photographs and then make them publicly accessible, please? For the advancement of knowledge and learning, plus the interest of persons -- oops inquisitive cats -- such as myself, that would be the best starting point. :)
To give you a very brief answer as to what I would do in that situation, I would remove everything internal back to the terminal block where the drop-wire is terminated. Then when requesting the service supply, indicate that a line is present to the premise but there is not any socket connected to the line and that an NTE5A would be required to be fitted to it.
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[burakkukat posted while I was writing this, but I'll leave it unchanged)
Concerning the DACS question, I guess that the answer will depend on the ISP, and only they can say definitely whether all cash paid will be refunded in the unlikely event that there's a DACS which can't be removed. You haven't said what ISPs you contacted, but I would expect Zen (as one example) to understand the question and give you a straight answer.
Concerning the wiring and the absence of an NTE5, I would remove all the star wiring, leaving one master socket connected at the point where the drop wire terminates. Then, as part of the commissioning of what is effectively a new line, BT will fit an NTE5 in place of the old master socket.
That's my understanding, but we do have a couple of OR engineers who hopefully will chip in.
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Hi, thanks - that was quick :) Nice cat by the way, we have two ourselves including a lovely black female one.
Try this:
http://www.dtmark.info/_resources/files/phone_wiring.jpg
The inside of the GPO box was full of dust and a couple of insects, sorry about the quality, but it gives some idea of why perhaps you can't sync on that master:
http://www.dtmark.info/_resources/files/gpo_box.jpg
Both sockets have 3 wires connected. The upper right box in the first photo is a splitter - it takes the signal and splits it in half to go to the two sockets, which both look exactly like the one in the bottom right shot.
Re: the DACS, the fact it's there suggests not many spare pairs; our original line was a straight through (evidently since it could sustain an ADSL signal) but neighbour has since had ADSL put on his line, and I recall an Openreach van arriving at the pole, looking up at it, then driving off again around that time. Also, the line - the last time I tried - did have a dial tone, but the circuit number had changed.
The other drop wire terminates in an identical splitter box in another room from which two wires protrude by about an inch and that's where someone severed them. Annoyingly, that line comes into my office room, the other one will only manage a sync on the downstairs master socket so you have to use wireless through the house.
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[burakkukat posted while I was writing this, but I'll leave it unchanged)
You haven't said what ISPs you contacted, but I would expect Zen (as one example) to understand the question and give you a straight answer.
Zen were actually the ADSL supplier when we had it. I called them back and they were able to retrieve some of the account/line information even though it was years ago (well done Zen). Their conclusion was that it [the useless speed] is most likely to be down to poor quality lines but I sense an entirely understandable "We can't say anything categorical" approach. After all they're not stood in the house looking at the wiring boxes.
One of the others said "We'd need to get Openreach to do a survey" and suggested that 2Mbps was "not too shabby" (that call didn't last long)
Another said "It won't make a blind bit of difference, you'll still only get 2.5Mbps" (untrue on all counts)
I gave up then.
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I would remove all the star wiring, leaving one master socket connected at the point where the drop wire terminates.
You're not supposed to of course, but as the line isn't "in use" I'd be significantly more brutal than that.
That black sausage is just a cable connector, joining the drop wire to the cable into your house.
It's not clear from the photo, but is there just one cable in (the drop wire) and one out?
Unless the cable out is single a good-quality twisted-pair type I'd "dematerialise" it all as well, probably along with the connector and just tie back the dropwire to ensure it is firmly fixed on the spiral retainer. 8)
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Mark,
I can now see what you have. Correct me if I'm wrong but I think you have one drop-wire from the pole to the external in-line "black sausage" and then two external grade cables from that to two separate internal junction boxes at different locations within the house.
Looking at the second image, I can see that the 1960s junction box has been rewired to 1980s telephony standards and it just connects through the B, A & "bell" wires.
The other drop wire terminates in an identical splitter box in another room from which two wires protrude by about an inch and that's where someone severed them. Annoyingly, that line comes into my office room, the other one will only manage a sync on the downstairs master socket so you have to use wireless through the house.
That is interesting to know. For what I shall call the original line, I would be tempted to open up that box, remove the two severed wire ends and then put the cover back on -- leaving it all neat and tidy.
Next, for what I shall call the second line, I would strip out all of the wiring, etc, including that 1960s (700-series) junction box back to the junction box where the internal feed is terminated.
Now you have two separate lines from the pole, the original terminated in your office (which is what you would like to use) and the second terminated elsewhere in the house (which you do not wish to use).
At this point, choose an ISP that has a good reputation and can provide the type of broadband service that you would like. Contact them and tell them that you have two physical lines present and neither is in use nor has a master socket connected. You could add that one line terminates in your office at a junction box and it is to there that you would like to have the service made available. The reputable ISP will then request an OR engineering visit to fit an NTE5A in your office, go "up the pole" and, possibly, "down some hole". Again, the reputable ISP will understand that you require a line capable of carrying a broadband signal and not just POTS grade.
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I can now see what you have. Correct me if I'm wrong but I think you have one drop-wire from the pole to the external in-line "black sausage" and then two external grade cables from that to two separate internal junction boxes at different locations within the house.
I'll have to pop my head out of the window when it's light and have a further look, as there seem to be more wires on the outside of the building (the top left photo) than I see internally: however -
Single wire from drop wire into the black box thing.
Regardless of how many wires (I really mean cables) exit it, only one comes indoors (the black one, top right photo) which is then split inside that junction box (it has left and right terminals as it were). The white wire (again top right photo - the "left set") carries half the signal downstairs - so it goes back outside again - and the other half of the signal (the "right set") goes to that GPO box.
The two sockets are definitely the same line ("pair") despite the ADSL only ever working on the downstairs one.
However none of this would seem to change the advice I'm getting here - many thanks for your replies.
My only remaining concern re: the "office" line (the one I'd prefer) is the DACS box; the pole serves six properties including ours at the end of a dead-end lane in a rural area and the addition of our second drop wire (the one which terminates in nothing at the moment) at some stage and the DACS box might well have gone together. I do wonder why we have two dropwires, maybe the "office" one was for some kind of burglar alarm or monitoring system as given the number of wires here, there would have been three "lines" two of which come out of the severed box (the "cut" ones)
Or maybe someone has been through all this before and ordered a second then third line as the first two were pants. I do know the last residents didn't pay their BT bills (I opened one thinking it was our first one by mistake), though so maybe they weren't entirely happy and decided to slice through the cables on their way out. We'll never know :)
I'm guessing that if you order two services (telephone and broadband) as one then the contract is for both, so if only the former can be fulfilled then the customer can elect whether to let the supplier off providing the latter and modify the contract, or refuse that and the supplier has to void/refund the whole thing because they are the ones electing not to fulfil the contract, I can check on that though.
Thanks very much :)
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b*cat rests his chin on a paw and considers the latest information. :-\
However many drop wires (cables) that come from the pole to your house (each would have the ability to provide more that one line pair) you would like a working pair (POTS & broadband) to your office. Assuming the DACS box is not a blocker for your requirement, an OR Engineer would just swap around the pairs contained within you 2+ drop wires (cables) to provide that requirement to the junction box in your office and then use a short length of internal CW1308 specification cable to connect from that junction box to the newly provided NTE5A.
Essentially you require your potential SP to accept that any contract between their pair of you has a clause that the provision of a viable broadband service is "the essence of that contract" (to use a legal phrase). Such a contract will, obviously, require an initial survey by the infrastructure provider, OpenReach.