Kitz Forum
Broadband Related => ADSL Issues => Topic started by: jeffbb on August 07, 2009, 03:04:17 PM
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Hi
About 5 days a go I started to lose PPo A connection to ZEN . It drops for anything between a few seconds to maybe 10 min . then may drop again within minutes or a day or so. Until this started I generally had no losses of connection.
During this problem period my connection to the exchange has been rock steady.
Status: ShowtimeRetrain Reason: 0
Channel: INTR, Upstream rate = 448 Kbps, Downstream rate = 6592 Kbps
Link Power State: L0
Mode: G.DMT
Channel: Interleave
Trellis: ON
Line Status: No Defect
Training Status: Showtime
Down Up
SNR (dB): 11.8 24.0
Attn(dB): 31.0 16.5
Pwr(dBm): 19.8 11.9
Max(Kbps): 7392 1196
Rate (Kbps): 6592 448
Total Up Times (From SF counts):
WAN: 11 days, 19:55:46
LAN: 12 days, 03:07:36
CRC: 12
LOS: 0
LOF: 0
ES : 12
WAN PPPoA 02:25:26
see attachment for typical SNR margin.
I have done a quiet line test absolutely dead quiet .
See also log . The log is not complete . I tried to mail it to my email . got an error message in the log .unfortunately lost all the entries and the error message has also disappeared .
Any help would be greatly appreciated .
Regards Jeff
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It won't be anything to do with the quality of your ADSL connection. I think your best bet would be to take it up with Zen, as they will have logs showing disconnections, and should be able to relate them to a cause.
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If its just the PPP session and not full loss of sync then its most likely to be the ISP (can also occur on the main backhaul).
Most PPP session drops occur if the ISP is doing some load balancing... which is possible.
Theres many IPStream ISPs atm that seem to be having to perform some sort of load balancing. Recently just about every big sporting event thats available for streaming seems to be causing problems with capacity for ISPs. I believe right now it the golf cricket? . :/
Perhaps Azzaka knows if they are doing load balancing.
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Which gateway are you connected to?
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Hi
quote : It won't be anything to do with the quality of your ADSL connection.
@eric unfortunately the ZEN help told me that it was probably BT problem ,or filter problem ?.
quote : If its just the PPP session and not full loss of sync then its most likely to be the ISP
quote : Recently just about every big sporting event thats available for streaming seems to be causing problems with capacity for ISPs
@Kitz I thought it would be ISP problem but The ZEN guy was saying I should get in touch with BT on 151 . ?? .
:disconnections are happening in the middle of the night as well as daytime ?
Which gateway are you connected to?
@ Orainsear is this it 62.3.83.5 ?
Regards Jeff
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Most ISPs do perform load balancing during the night if they can.... iirc in the past they used to do them at about midnight.
Its only if things are bad and one gateway is suffering whilst others have free capacity do they normally force it during the day.
>> :disconnections are happening in the middle of the night as well as daytime ?
When you say disconnections.. you just mean loss off PPP and sync is still there?
PPP = the ISP
Sync = between the exchange and your router.
The ISP can't make you loose sync... only the PPP session.
If you loose the PPP session but still have sync... then its not your router/line/exchange.
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@eric unfortunately the ZEN help told me that it was probably BT problem ,or filter problem ?.
Perhaps the person you spoke to didn't understand that it's your PPP session which drops, not your connection to the exchange. I remember when I was with Zen they did tell us that they would be doing load balancing from time to time, although I wouldn't expect it to happen so frequently.
Really, only Zen can help with this. Calling 151 will get you nowhere, because that's only for voice faults. Perhaps you need to explain more clearly to Zen that your ADSL connection is not dropping.
[Edit - Kitz got there first, but I may as well post this anyway :) ]
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You have not changed to windows 7 have you?
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is this it 62.3.83.5 ?
Yes - that's Gandhi.
When I was with Zen the load balancing usually happened in the small hours, between 12 - 1 am, unless there was an emergency load balancing.
The current Zen service alerts don't indicate any outages or problems that should be affecting you in this way though. Best to get back to Zen as already suggested.
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Hi
quote : If you loose the PPP session but still have sync... then its not your router/line/exchange.
Yes its only the ppp session
Quote You have not changed to windows 7 have you?
No not looking for trouble just yet ;D
quote Perhaps the person you spoke to didn't understand that it's your PPP session which drops
I did try to make it very clear to the individual . I went through my router log details with him. Yet he still tried to tell me it could be a line problem . :(
Here's hoping that Azzaka might pick up on this ?
Regards Jeff
Edit in fact the ZEN help guy confirmed the time the problem started . He also commented that my line looked very stable !!??
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Hi all further update
Just lost it again a few minutes ago this is the log
Fri, 2009-08-07 11:21:10 - CHAP authentication success this was when it reconnected this morning
Fri, 2009-08-07 13:08:25 - Administrator login successful - IP:192.168.0.2
Fri, 2009-08-07 13:35:06 - Administrator login successful - IP:192.168.0.2
Fri, 2009-08-07 13:58:11 - Administrator login successful - IP:192.168.0.2
Fri, 2009-08-07 15:28:55 - Administrator login successful - IP:192.168.0.2
Fri, 2009-08-07 18:21:36 - Initialize LCP. at this time I was on internet and could not connect to
Kitz pages .Could not access router login .got authentication failure.
Fri, 2009-08-07 18:21:36 - LCP is allowed to come up.
Fri, 2009-08-07 18:22:03 - CHAP authentication success All lights were green . still couldn't connect to web pages decided to reboot PC
Fri, 2009-08-07 18:22:41 - Administrator login successful - IP:192.168.0.2
Fri, 2009-08-07 18:32:41 - Administrator login successful - IP:192.168.0.2
(had to leave for a few minutes .) about 1845 all ok
It seems to take a few minutes after all the router lights are green before you can actually connect to the web ??
During this episode all my router stats parameters were rock steady
regards Jeff
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LCP (Link Control Protocol (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Link_Control_Protocol)) is part of the PPP session between you and your ISP.
AIUI its what identifies you and authorises you on to the ISP network... It doesnt have anything to do with physical line conditions.
LCP session problems could occur for example:-
1. ~ if you was with an ISP that did idle timeouts,
2. ~ if you was with an ISP that did session limits
3. ~ if for some reason your login was no longer valid,
4. ~ if there was a problem with the ISP radius
5. ~ if the ISP drops your connection.
6. ~ if theres a problem on the BTw centrals
7. ~ if theres too many session limits on the centrals and BTw are 'policing' them
8. ~ possible problem with the BTw RADIUS in that it cant ident you.
* 1&2 dont apply to Zen,
* its not 3 or you wouldnt be able to re-authorise,
* 4 is unlikely or youd have problems connecting again and lots of Zen customers wouldnt be able to connect.
* 7 highly unlikely and youd have problems reconnecting.. plus you'd also see your router reporting several attempts to establish a connection.
That leaves 5 or 6
>> It seems to take a few minutes after all the router lights are green before you can actually connect to the web ?
Shouldn't take too long only about a minute at the most- you'll have to be reauthorised on to the Zen part of the network.
Your router should keep trying every few minutes until it does get auth.... if it gets a failed attempt your router should either log it as failed and/or show each re-attempt.
From your router logs
>> Fri, 2009-08-07 18:21:36 - LCP is allowed to come up.
>> Fri, 2009-08-07 18:22:03 - CHAP authentication success
The time looks slightly slow but still ok.. theres no failed attempts.
hmmm just thought.- as I typed slightly slow... would need to see more normal zen auth to be sure - but could be round-robin trying a few centrals before it does connect. If it is.. then this points to possible unbalanced centrals.
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oops - just had a look on TBB - theres a couple of complaints today about zen speeds and network flakiness.
Certainly looks like some of their centrals are loaded and therefore imbalanced - either that or one of their centrals has failed.
In that case it wouldnt surprise me in the least if they are performing emergency load balancing for either of the above.
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You'll see Zen have completed emergency load ballancing:-
http://status.zensupport.co.uk/index.php?serviceid=5&incidentid=1384&archive=1
Kind regards,
Walter
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HI
quote You'll see Zen have completed emergency load ballancing:-
Wasnt that in JULY?
quote : oops - just had a look on TBB - theres a couple of complaints today about zen speeds and network flakiness
@Kitz I will have a look around and get in touch with Zen again .I am rather disappointed with the response I got from help guy. ,it was almost as bad as you know who. Was determined to fob me off.
quote Your router should keep trying every few minutes until it does get auth.... if it gets a failed attempt your router should either log it as failed and/or show each re-attempt.
It has done that ,on Thursday night there were many attempts ,see first attachment for details .
Thanks for all your help.
regards Jeff
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>> It has done that ,on Thursday night there were many attempts ,see first attachment for details
Whoops - so sorry. I saw the image attachment and didnt see the text file - :-[
Those times are at about when I would expect an ISP to do some scheduled load balancing.
What is weird though is them doing so, so many times - that doesnt seem right. Unless you were extremely unlucky and you got kicked to a new central which they then load balanced, kicked to another and then they load balanced that one. Highly unlikely.
The constant attempts indicate:
~ BT policing Zens Centrals - they are short of sessions.
~ One of the Centrals, or link to the Central, is down.
~ Some weirdness with Zens RADIUS servers
~ Some weirdness with BTs RADIUS at the RAS
There is also the possibility that their could be a problem with the BTw RADIUS at the RAS you connect via.
Are you on any of these exchanges - BTw MSO report (http://business.bt.com/business/help/ss/1,,Broadband_0_5_BTCTB_Home,00.html).
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Sorry Jefbb,
I'd mentally transposed the month and day !
I'd recommend ringing Zen again today and be a little more persistent. You should find they aren't quite so busy over the w/e so might spend a bit more time with you.
Kind regards,
Walter
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Hi
quote :There is also the possibility that their could be a problem with the BTw RADIUS at the RAS you connect via.
Are you on any of these exchanges - BTw MSO report .
:
@Kitz : No I am on Anglesey in NWales (Amlwch Port).
@ Walter Yes I will ring them and see if I can get more sense .
Regards Jeff.
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Hi
I rang ZEN this afternoon. Very nice guy ,He said he would do some line checks and get BT to do some checks .He also said He could get BT to check MY line ,BUT if no fault was found I would be liable for cost. He also suggested that I try another router for a day or 2 . Not sure that will prove anything except if it shows PPP drops, if it doesn;t still no better off as I have had More than 24 hrs without PPP loss. Still Ive decided to get another router netgear dg834gt second hand in good condition from Amazon. It will do as a spare . Should be here Tuesday .
BTW what does Send out NTP request to time-g.netgear.com mean ?
Thanks for help .
Regards Jeff
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NTP is Network Time Protocol, used for synchronizing the clocks of computers and devices. In this case your router is sending out a request to synchronize itself with the Netgear time server.
With regards to your problem, what model/version number of router are you using and also the firmware version? I'm sure I've seen something before about this happening with the V2 DG834G.
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Hi
quote : I'm sure I've seen something before about this happening with the V2 DG834G.
I am using DG834G V4 . with the latest firmware V5.01.14
Regards Jeff
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Hmmm well I think it had more to do with the AR7 chipset which is obviously not relevant to you with the V4.
When your router reconnects to Zen does it connect to other gateways?
Can you post a tracert - not sure how much use it will be but it may show something.
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Hi tracert to zen ?
pings to ZEN all time out . I don't think they respond
Tracing route to zen.co.uk [82.71.140.243]
over a maximum of 30 hops:
1 3 ms 2 ms 2 ms 192.168.0.1
2 34 ms 35 ms 35 ms gadamer-dsl.zen.net.uk [62.3.83.3]
3 35 ms 36 ms 34 ms erazmus-ge-0-0-1-1.wh.zen.net.uk [62.3.80.193
4 34 ms 36 ms 35 ms cavendish-13-1-11.wh.zen.net.uk [62.3.83.69]
5 34 ms 35 ms 34 ms fw1.tc.net.hosting.zen.co.uk [82.71.206.251]
6 * * * Request timed out.
7 * * * Request timed out.
8 * * * Request timed out.
9 * * * Request timed out.
10 * * * Request timed out.
11 * * * Request timed out.
12 * * * Request timed out.
13 * ^C
____________________________
C:\Users\jeff>tracert zen.net.uk
Tracing route to zen.net.uk [212.23.8.3]
over a maximum of 30 hops:
1 3 ms 3 ms 3 ms 192.168.0.1
2 35 ms 33 ms 35 ms gadamer-dsl.zen.net.uk [62.3.83.3]
3 34 ms 33 ms 36 ms erazmus-ge-0-0-1-1.wh.zen.net.uk [62.3.80.193]
4 34 ms 35 ms 36 ms sophocles.zen.co.uk [212.23.8.3]
Trace complete.
Its a problem with no obvious links to time or anything else
when PPP is down my stats are all good .
Regards jeff
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May be an idea to keep a note of which gateways you are connected to.. to see which one it happens on.
atm its gadamer.
>> I'm sure I've seen something before about this happening with the V2 DG834G.
Yes you are correct.... there was the 'midnight boot' problem that occurred each day. It was fixed with a firmware upgrade.
Theres also a couple of (older?) routers that sometimes seem to have problems re-establishing a connection if just the ppp session is dropped.
- ie because the router still had sync, it doesnt sense the loss of internet connection... and doesnt automatically try to re-establish PPP authentication.
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Hi
quote May be an idea to keep a note of which gateways you are connected to.. to see which one it happens on.
62.3.85.17 from router
C:\Users\jeff>tracert zen.net.uk
Tracing route to zen.net.uk [212.23.8.3]
over a maximum of 30 hops:
1 6 ms 5 ms 5 ms 192.168.0.1
2 41 ms 40 ms 39 ms losubs.subs.dsl1.kp-leeds.zen.net.uk [62.3.85.17 *** is this the gateway
]
3 45 ms 46 ms 45 ms ae0-112.cr1.kp-leeds.zen.net.uk [62.3.85.177]
4 43 ms 43 ms 44 ms bolzano-ge-3-0-0-0.wh.zen.net.uk [62.3.80.57]
5 43 ms 45 ms 43 ms sophocles.zen.co.uk [212.23.8.3]
Trace complete.
after over 24hrs it went crazy again for about 2hrs . Nothing in my stats to show any problems .
BT have finished doing checks .NO info regarding results . Zen have requested reboot etc . Doing that TMO. I will leave everything running
Regards jeff
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TBH I dont know think its load balancing - its happening too often, and I'd expect to see a lot more complaints about other users seeing the same thing.
Perhaps if Azakka is about today he may be able to come up with some ideas.
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Hi
Hi
Just quickly while I can connect
1 For some reason the router time is wrong
2 while I have no PPP I cannot access the router through the web page using the desktop icon .I get an Authentication error.
If I type in the router address its ok .
3 I am getting lots of time outs at the moment connecting to sites .
Routerstats though looks good .
see bits of log notice the odd times
Sat, 2000-01-01 00:45:34 - Initialize LCP.
Sat, 2000-01-01 00:45:34 - LCP is allowed to come up.
Sat, 2000-01-01 00:46:34 - Initialize LCP.
Sat, 2000-01-01 00:46:34 - LCP is allowed to come up.
Sat, 2000-01-01 00:47:34 - Initialize LCP.
Sat, 2000-01-01 00:47:34 - LCP is allowed to come up.
Sat, 2000-01-01 00:48:34 - Initialize LCP.
Sat, 2000-01-01 00:48:34 - LCP is allowed to come up.
Sat, 2000-01-01 00:49:34 - Initialize LCP.
Sat, 2000-01-01 00:49:34 - LCP is allowed to come up.
Sat, 2000-01-01 00:50:35 - Initialize LCP.
Sat, 2000-01-01 00:50:35 - LCP is allowed to come up.
Sat, 2000-01-01 00:51:35 - Initialize LCP.
Sat, 2000-01-01 00:51:35 - LCP is allowed to come up.
Sat, 2000-01-01 00:52:35 - Initialize LCP.
Sat, 2000-01-01 00:52:35 - LCP is allowed to come up.
Sat, 2000-01-01 00:53:35 - Initialize LCP.
Sat, 2000-01-01 00:53:35 - LCP is allowed to come up.
Sat, 2000-01-01 00:54:35 - Initialize LCP.
Sat, 2000-01-01 00:54:35 - LCP is allowed to come up.
Sat, 2000-01-01 00:54:42 - CHAP authentication success
Sat, 2000-01-01 00:55:02 - Send out NTP request to time-g.netgear.com
Mon, 2009-08-10 08:12:32 - Receive NTP Reply from time-g.netgear.com wrong time ***by 1hr***************************
Mon, 2009-08-10 08:17:01 - LCP down.
Mon, 2009-08-10 08:17:08 - Initialize LCP.
Mon, 2009-08-10 08:17:08 - LCP is allowed to come up.
Mon, 2009-08-10 08:17:31 - Administrator login successful - IP:192.168.0.2
Mon, 2009-08-10 08:18:08 - Initialize LCP.
Mon, 2009-08-10 08:18:08 - LCP is allowed to come up.
Mon, 2009-08-10 08:18:11 - Administrator login successful - IP:192.168.0.2
Mon, 2009-08-10 08:19:08 - Initialize LCP.
Mon, 2009-08-10 08:19:08 - LCP is allowed to come up.
Mon, 2009-08-10 08:19:11 - Administrator login successful - IP:192.168.0.2
Mon, 2009-08-10 08:20:08 - Initialize LCP.
Mon, 2009-08-10 08:20:08 - LCP is allowed to come up.
Mon, 2009-08-10 08:21:08 - Initialize LCP.
Mon, 2009-08-10 08:21:08 - LCP is allowed to come up.
Mon, 2009-08-10 08:22:08 - Initialize LCP.
Mon, 2009-08-10 08:22:08 - LCP is allowed to come up.
Mon, 2009-08-10 08:23:08 - Initialize LCP.
Mon, 2009-08-10 08:23:09 - LCP is allowed to come up.
Mon, 2009-08-10 08:24:09 - Initialize LCP.
Mon, 2009-08-10 08:24:09 - LCP is allowed to come up.
Mon, 2009-08-10 08:25:09 - Initialize LCP.
Mon, 2009-08-10 08:25:09 - LCP is allowed to come up.
Mon, 2009-08-10 08:26:09 - Initialize LCP.
Mon, 2009-08-10 08:26:09 - LCP is allowed to come up.
Mon, 2009-08-10 08:26:16 - CHAP authentication success
Mon, 2009-08-10 08:39:46 - Initialize LCP.
Mon, 2009-08-10 08:39:46 - LCP is allowed to come up.
Mon, 2009-08-10 08:40:46 - Initialize LCP.
Mon, 2009-08-10 08:40:46 - LCP is allowed to come up.
didn't get chance to post lost it again
on, 2009-08-10 10:42:48 - LCP is allowed to come up.
Mon, 2009-08-10 10:43:48 - Initialize LCP.
Mon, 2009-08-10 10:43:48 - LCP is allowed to come up.
Mon, 2009-08-10 10:44:48 - Initialize LCP.
Mon, 2009-08-10 10:44:48 - LCP is allowed to come up.
Mon, 2009-08-10 10:45:16 - CHAP authentication success time is still out by 1 hr
Regards Jeff
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Don't worry about the time being out by an hour... this is likely to be a setting in the router where it has to be manually put into DST. I have to change mine each summer/winter.
Hmmm this appears to be getting worse?
IIRC - youve still not lost any sync? Therefore there hasnt been a power down?
Slim chance but try doing a power down, leave it a couple of mins then do a resync.
Wondering if a reset may help
/grasping at straws now.
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I'm not sure that this is just related to Zen! Have a look at the Plusnet Community Boards.. http://community.plus.net/forum/index.php/board,3.0.html .. there seem to be quite a lot of random PPP drop problems about. Methinks BT are messing about!
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Hi
@Kitz
quote Slim chance but try doing a power down, leave it a couple of mins then do a resync.
Wondering if a reset may help
/grasping at straws now.
Saturday
I grasped at straws as well tried rebooting , switching off ,still Not got rid of problem . One funny thing though Target SNR appears to have dropped by 3 db so cannot be much wrong with line connection. :)
Sunday disconnected both SaTtelite boxes from phone (no real reason).
Overnight 2 losses of PPP !!
Today set another router dg834GT . Now waiting to see. One short PPP loss at +30 min.
Zen rang me : The helpful Zen guy now seemed to be now talking of pushing BT to look at their equipment(slight change in emphasis since last mail from them ) in view of the stability of the line . :)
Regards
Jeff
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Thats an interesting suggestion by one customer that using PPPoE worked for them - despite acknowledging that it carries additional overheads etc.
Re the Voyager 2100/2110.. I used to use one of those (2100) for a long while and also suffered from the unable to auto reconnect ppp session a while back (dont use it anymore).
The problem did seem to come and go - Im pretty sure Ive documented it on these forums somewhere that it seemed to start after a re-RAS.
However it must be stressed that I wasnt seeing weird & random drops - only the problem auto re-establishing if the PPP session had been dropped for another reason.
jeff - glad that zen are now taking it more seriously.
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Hi
The good or bad news depends on how you look at it is that the problem is the same with the DG834GT . in about 7hrs I had 6 losses of PPP the shortest up time was <1 Min the longest was 4HRS. That is until 8 PM ,now been up 13HRS 52MIN and counting . Repeating the same sort of irregular losses . ::).
I also spoke to Leo He mentioned changing firmware that he reckons you recommend . Is that the DGTEAM firmware ?
Regards Jeff
Edit looking around some of the other forums . when people say they have lost connection ,I wonder how many people are actually having this problem. ?
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The firmware that I linked to a few messages ago is the official Netgear firmware, and I've no personal experience of it. The current DGTeam firmware, which I use, is based on an earlier version of the official firmware, so the later version may have improvements in the ADSL driver, but I don't know. However I don't think it's got anything to do with your problem, which is related to the link between the exchange and Zen; it may be the result of BT activity, or it may be caused by Zen, and really only Zen can help you get to the bottom of it.
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Hi Jeff,
Can you enable ping on your modem please?
This should be found in the WAN setup, tick the PING box please.
Kindest Regards,
Leo
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Hi
@ Leo OK I have enabled ping :)
Regards Jeff
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Hi
Thanks Eric . Having done everything I have done ,even though I am NO expert I would tend to think its in BT/ Zen court . The only thing left is for me is to use 2 tin cans and a length of string for communications :lol:
I must say that Zen are being Very helpful.
Regards Jeff
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Hi Jeff,
It will be interesting to compare the results of the ping with the frequency of your drops.
As a stab in the dark, if you discover a period of problems you might try the BT Speedtest; as you are using a non-BT ISP, it will ask for your authentication username, but sadly not your password.
@ Kitz,
Do you know if there is an authentication fault log attached to the BT W Database of usernames etc. ?
Kind regards,
Walter
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hi walter
quote if you discover a period of problems you might try the BT Speedtest;
the trouble is when I lose PPP then I cannot access any site . I did have one where I started a tracert just as it went down . I got the router ok then 6 timed out links then Destination net unreachable.
tried again got this
Tracing route to kitz.co.uk [91.198.165.131]
over a maximum of 30 hops:
1 192.168.0.1 reports: Destination net unreachable.
Trace complete.
Regards jeff
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Been a bit busy with r/l stuff today so not had chance to finish what I was going to do with this Im afraid :/
But after looking around there well could be some other customers of IPStream ISPs also seeing this. I started a thread on TBB to see if any more Zen users were seeing this.. and also another on the PN community forums... IDnet users may also be seeing it too, but as yet I havent had chance to post where I was going to.
However, PN does seem to be seeing this too, and Ive had a direct reply from a rep there who states that there has been an escalation to BT. There may also be a pattern with some exchanges in NI. All of these exchanges have had recent PEWs .. unsure yet or not if it is related to what you are seeing.
I'm wondering if its not ISP related.. then it perhaps may be the BT RAS/RADIUS.. although I would expect a heck of a lot more users complaining if it was.
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Hi
@Kitz :The thing is that unless you are monitoring using something like routerstats or at least keeping a close eye on your synch etc , then It may be that many are just reported as connection losses. The other thing is that it is so random that if users are only on a few hours they may not notice . On some occasions the PPP is resynchronised within a minute or two . Which could be mistaken as slow web pages .
The latest time up for PPP is 24HRs and 52 minutes .So difficult to predict . during this time SYNCH rock steady SNR showing usual 2 to 3 db steps . These steps are also random .no affect on errors etc .
see attachment
Total Up Times (From SF counts):
WAN: 2 days, 06:57:48
LAN: 2 days, 07:08:08
CRC: 3
LOS: 0
LOF: 0
ES : 2
SF: 11641643
SF Errors: 3
Reed Solomon: 791631754
RS Corrected: 1160
RS Un-Corrected: 24
HEC: 3
Errored Seconds: 2
Severe ES: 0
I received this from ZEN "The issue is most likely at the exchange but we may need to book a standard premises visit in the first instance.
My concern is what can they find unless they are here when PPP is down. If the find nothing then I am concerned that they may try to charge me ?
Regards Jeff
[attachment deleted by admin]
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Hi Jeff,
I suspect that it's most unlikely that BT would attempt to charge for this type of fault especially as there can be little reason to investigate your modems as both your modems stay in sync.
(I.e. they are NOT disconnecting from the exchange equipment so I don't think BT can actually be looking for anthing within your copper loop or termination thereof.)
It would however be worth a little bum protection; make sure you have written down all the tests you have done with the different modems and e-mail that data to
support@zen.co.uk, together with copies to anyone you know at zen, asking that they append your data as appropriate to their BT representative(s).
On a more general note I wonder if we could find out which BT RAS(s) have reported these authentication problems?
I know of about 20 Zen clients around here with the majority using Reading and nobody has complained to me, although I realise this is not a proof of no problem around here.
Kind regards,
Walter
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Unfortunately you are right and the vast majority of users would never notice a loss of PPP session.. and think its either slowness... or mistakenly think its full loss of sync.
Even myself in the past several times over the years Ive only noticed when doing something like a tracert and Ive noticed a different gateway which then made me realise for some reason or other Ive lost only the PPP session.
Good luck with the OR visit - hope you get an engineer that understands the difference between sync and PPP... I'm also hoping that Azakka will cover your back on this one too as something isnt right.
Is it still occurring?
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@ walter
>> On a more general note I wonder if we could find out which BT RAS(s) have reported these authentication problems?
That was kinda my aim and why I started a thread on TBB and the PN community forums to see if there was a pattern forming re the location.
From the PN reply I got the only pattern so far was NI exchanges.. which co-incidentally all had had recent engineering works (PEWs).
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Hi
Just lost PPP after 44HRS. :(
@Kitz
Quote :
Even myself in the past several times over the years Ive only noticed when doing something like a tracert and Ive noticed a different gateway which then made me realise for some reason or other Ive lost only the PPP session.
If the Gateway has changed then its only possible if 1 there is a loss of Synch . 2 if PPP is lost .
I have many tracerts after the PPP loss showing new Gateways , and I have many graphs showing No loss of synch and Good SNR margin with no spikes or anything to link to the PPP loss at the various times . **
@walter
quote It would however be worth a little bum protection; make sure you have written down all the tests you have done with the different modems and e-mail that data to
I have maintained the Zen Fault tracking sheet . ** I will Email a few of these to ZEN.
One of the ZEN guys was telling me that during his training he was told that Loss of authentication could not happen on its own ??.
Regards Jeff
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One of the ZEN guys was telling me that during his training he was told that Loss of authentication could not happen on its own ??.
I'm not sure exactly what he means by that, but it certainly does happen that the PPP connection can drop without the router losing the connection to the exchange. ISP load balancing, as mentioned before, is one way in which this can happen.
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>> If the Gateway has changed then its only possible if 1 there is a loss of Synch . 2 if PPP is lost .
Correct :)
Re PPP connection dropping.. as roseway mentioned the most common is load balancing.. but there are some more ways this can occur (http://forum.kitz.co.uk/index.php?topic=5448.msg122951#msg122951).
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I have maintained the Zen Fault tracking sheet . ** I will Email a few of these to ZEN.
One of the ZEN guys was telling me that during his training he was told that Loss of authentication could not happen on its own ??.
Regards Jeff
I dont supopse you know who it was that you spoke to, I can confirm 100% that is not the case (as you guys know) and it most certainly is not something that is in training, perhaps its something that has been miss-understood but ether way if you know it it is I can go "Educate" them for you.
(https://forum.kitz.co.uk/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fmembers.arstechnica.com%2Fx%2Finthane%2Fcluebat.jpg&hash=ed1cd111e49895b2ab55032f75605dbca7589283)
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Right now looking at our server logs, i can see the line dropped @14:28 for 20secs. about 28mins before the drop the line experienced packetloss:
http://smokeping.eper.net/cgi-bin/smokeping.cgi?displaymode=n;start=2009-08-14%2004:28;end=now;target=Residential.ADSL.zen182598
This is in turn caused the loss of the PPP session. Armed with this information we'll send this back to BT and see what we can find out.
Leo
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Hi
@ Leo
I have just replied to the ZEN update . Lost PPP again today after just over 24Hrs .
Sat, 2009-08-15 15:16:06 - LCP down.
Sat, 2009-08-15 15:16:13 - Initialize LCP.
Sat, 2009-08-15 15:16:13 - LCP is allowed to come up.
Sat, 2009-08-15 15:16:30 - CHAP authentication success
If I am reading the smokeping graph correctly It corresponds to some packet loss at about that time
Regards Jeff
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@ Leo,
I wonder if the following crumb of evidence might be of help?
I was attempting to do a BT Speedtest at Olga's @ about 07:55 and got TWO successive tests errors "Unexpected result received when querying the network to find your services connection details. Please try again shortly ......." before the third one was successful with a meteoric throughput of 196 kbps. I have the Zen username permanently in the remote laptop's clipboard and always paste it into the second BT webpage, so it definitely isn't finger trouble - although it might just be data corruption en route to the BT Database ? (Olga's connection is remaining remarkably steady at present.)
Kind regards,
Walter
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...
If I am reading the smokeping graph correctly It corresponds to some packet loss at about that time ...
I noted the same thing yesturday. BT did see an issue and passed it back to Diagnostics who then could not see it. I'll be passing it back and asking them to investigate the packetloss, alos noting that other lines with other ISP's are seeing the same fault.
NB: Just to add before anyone gets confused, the packetloss happens before the line drops and not just at the time it drops.
Kindest Regards,
Leo
(edited to add the note at the bottom)
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sorry bit OT.. but lol @ the clue bat :lol:
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For what it's worth, I changed my router's protocol settings to PPPoE and LLC/SNAP two days ago (as Kitz mentioned earlier in this thread) and the difference is amazing! Absolutely rock solid PPP (as opposed to frequent dropouts before). So I would definitely recommend trying the "wrong" settings if you are having problems with this.
@Kitz... did you get any meaningful data from your request on the Plusnet Community site for exchange info on this problem?
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Hi
lost WAN for 4 secs . I think it was to do with the target snr . It has now dropped . My synch speed increased by about 300Kbps. The short down time would perhaps explain how sometimes when the target has been reset there has been no apparent disconnection.
Sun, 2009-08-16 15:58:36 - Initialize LCP.
Sun, 2009-08-16 15:58:37 - LCP is allowed to come up.
Sun, 2009-08-16 15:58:40 - CHAP authentication success
Regards Jeff
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hi
On sunday lost PPP again
Sun, 2009-08-16 17:05:20 - LCP down.
Sun, 2009-08-16 17:05:28 - Initialize LCP.
Sun, 2009-08-16 17:05:28 - LCP is allowed to come up.
Sun, 2009-08-16 17:05:31 - CHAP authentication success
Then OK for 46 hrs . I did a reboot as requested By Zen . As BT had been doing more investigation :fingers:
Regards Jeff
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I wonder if this problem has anything to do with Netgear routers in particular.
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Hi
I wonder if this problem has anything to do with Netgear routers in particular.
It does not seem like it .There are others with the problem. Its getting to be more of a problem . Other ISPs are also seeing it .
There is a netgear problem with routing and BE . John from routerstats knows about that one
Regards Jeff
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Hi
Well had almost 4 days without PPP loss (one reboot as requested in middle of that). Unfortunately after About 11PM last night it all went pear shaped again with loads of attempts to Authenticate throughout the night some improvement early morning . Now been up 8hrs . Lan and Wan over 3 days with a SYNCH of 7264 Kbps.(best its ever been) .ZEN are investigating ;D
thank goodness not with T------ any more :lol:
this fault seems like its a widespread problem.
Regards Jeff
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BTW have accepted the case as being somewhere on their network.
I have not heard anything yet, But i think they need time to uinvestigate as this could be related to the Broadcom chipset issues faced by 21CN customers.
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Hi
@Azzaka Did you see this link
http://community.plus.net/forum/index.php/topic,78341.0.html
It refers to Belkin and BT Voyager 2110 having similar problems .
Regards Jeff
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Hi
Well been steady for 10 days .(touch wood ) :)
Zen have closed the fault . Last was BT investigating .No Idea if they found anything ?.Looking around the reports about this problem seem to have gone quiet . Wonder what the problem was . Just seemed to start early August and now gone quiet .
Regards Jeff
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Not heard anything much either on the latest situation.
That is mostly my fault, as both Leo from Zen and James from Plusnet both attempted to contact me whilst I was away on holiday.
Azzaka has sent me something through via mail, but Im still in catchup mode (what else is new :/) for my email.
James managed to get through to me on my mobile.. but as I was away there wasnt much I could say.. although I did suggest he also contact IDnet whom I'd noticed some customers also seemingly experiencing the same issues. I believe he did contact Simon from IDnet, but again Im not sure of the current situation.
As things have been static for you - hopefully whatever it was has now cleared.
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Hi
Azzka has been on holiday ?. His colleague Aaron has been keeping an eye on things . As its been OK he just closed the fault . No info back regarding BT investigation.
Touching wood (scratching head) :lol:
Slightly off post just a question . When I set up my router as per Zen instructions I did not fill in the IP or dns (the following information should only be used by network administrators)referring to DNS and IP address. Left them to be obtained Dynamically from ISP. Would it be better to enter them in the set up as I have a static IP and the DNS information .
Regards Jeff
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Hi jeffbb,
I've set up about 30 Zen services and have never entered that data, nor have I observed any difficulties with web access.
Kind regards
Walter
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No you dont need to.. even if you have a static IP, it will still pick it up automatically. :)
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Good morning
OK thanks for the reply :)
Regards Jeff :)
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Hi
got this from ZEN today in the online fault tracking (was closed on the 1st.
03-Sep-2009 19:39 (BT)
**Fault Resolved**
We have received an update from BT which indicates that your fault has been repaired/resolved.
If this is the case please enter a brief note and close the fault using the box provided below.
If this is not the case please conduct a full retest. A retest involves a power-cycle (power off and switch back on) of your ADSL equipment and computer and connecting to the BT test and/or master socket.
If a fault remains after this retest please contact the Technical Support team with details of the tests conducted, along with the details of any change in symptoms.
All seems ok been up 14 days
Wonder what it was ??
Must say that Zen have been very good at dealing with BT. must give them another star :)
Regards Jeff
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Thanks for the update Jeff.
The correspondence I got from Azzaka whilst I was away, did seem to indicate that Zen were aware that there could be an issue involving several users.
The convo I had with the Plusnet rep.. also seemed to indicate that they had seemingly narrowed down at least some of the cases to exchanges which recently had scheduled PEWs.
So hopefully what ever it was has now all been resolved.
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Hi Everybody,
Zen's fault logging system is very good, but like all systems, it has its idiosyncracies. It is linked to the automatic responses which Zen get from the BT fault logging system. One facet is that BT like reporting faults cleared for their statistical purposes; this is why they like to tell Zen a fault is cleared when it might not be. You only have to respond to Zen and they will check & re-open any fault which still needs further work.
Kind regards
Walter
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Hi
Thanks for the replies .
@walter I have mailed ZEN .just wanted to say all was Ok.
Regards Jeff
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:fingers:
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Hi
PPP went down early this morning at 01:15 after 17 + days :( back up at 01:29 . :)
Noticed Smokeping showed 100% PL during that time . It also seemed to lose connection.
I will keep monitoring to see if its a one of.
I was reading an article on TBB
http://www.thinkbroadband.com/news/4040-bt-21cn-update.html.
and it seemed a coincidence that
quote Graph showing latency on one of the thinkbroadband 21CN lines showing very high peak time latency on period up to morning of 21st August when the issue was fixed.
which was exactly how long my PPP had been stable
Regards Jeff
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>> it seemed a coincidence that
it does a bit.
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Hi
Only lasted 3 days :(
Fri, 2009-09-11 23:48:02 - LCP down.
Fri, 2009-09-11 23:48:09 - Initialize LCP.
Fri, 2009-09-11 23:48:09 - LCP is allowed to come up.
Fri, 2009-09-11 23:48:13 - CHAP authentication success
seems to coincide with a 35% packet loss
At least it came up straight away :)
Regards Jeff
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Hi Jeff et al,
How are things going. I did get a few lines whilst I was away but as I can see yours was closed off and cleared.
Kindest Regards,
Leo
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HI
@Leo Yes your colleague closed it after the line had not dropped ppp up to sept 3rd .I have had a couple of drops since .
Did you enjoy your time off ?
Regards Jeff
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To be honest Jeff, it was well earned and enjoyed. Even with the clouds north wales was 25-26degress Cel.
I am glad it does seem to be sorted. I believe the issue is related to the WBC/WMBC piping issues. Now that these have been resolved all the lines have settled. This is by no means official, but the time line does fit.
Kindest Regards,
Leo