Kitz Forum

Broadband Related => ADSL Issues => Topic started by: richard on August 01, 2009, 03:08:08 PM

Title: ADSL2+ connection breaks when television is turned on
Post by: richard on August 01, 2009, 03:08:08 PM

Hi,

I'm experiencing a very annoying problem with my ADSL2+ connection and would greatly appreciate any helpful advice.

Since my connection was upgraded to ADSL2+ a couple of months ago, it experiences severe packet loss when my plasma television is turned on, and occasionally when my landline is called. The packet loss persists until the television is turned off or the router is restarted.

The problem occurs regardless of which telephone socket the router is connected to, except when the router is connected to the test socket, in which case the problem doesn't occur.

BT claim that there's no fault on my line, but I don't think they performed the test when the fault was occurring.

Unfortunately, replacing the television isn't a viable option because its mount and wiring are embedded in the wall.

The following is a typical sample of my modem's statistics, taken when the fault isn't occurring:

--------------------------- ATU-R Info (hw: annex A, f/w: annex A) -----------
   Running Mode            : ADSL2+(G.992.5)       State                : SHOWTIME
   DS Actual Rate          :  4809000 bps   US Actual Rate       :   971000 bps
   DS Attainable Rate      :  4536000 bps   US Attainable Rate   :   972000 bps
   DS Path Mode            :        Fast    US Path Mode         :        Fast 
   DS Interleave Depth     :       16       US Interleave Depth  :        1 
   NE Current Attenuation  :       45 dB    Cur SNR Margin       :        8  dB
   DS actual PSD           :    16. 9 dB    US actual PSD        :    12. 7   dB
   ADSL Firmware Version   : 232201_A 
  -------------------------------- ATU-C Info ---------------------------------
   Far Current Attenuation :       22 dB    Far SNR Margin       :        6  dB
   CO ITU Version[0]       : 00005000       CO ITU Version[1]    : 00000000
   DSLAM CHIPSET VENDOR    : < CTLM >

My SNRM falls to 6dB when the fault is occurring.

Is it normal for plasma televisions to create such powerful electrical interference? Is there any way of reducing the interference other than rewiring the house? I'm unsure of what action to take because I don't know who or what is ultimately at fault. :-\

Title: Re: ADSL2+ connection breaks when television is turned on
Post by: orainsear on August 01, 2009, 03:52:04 PM

Sounds like your TV is a source of REIN (http://www.kitz.co.uk/adsl/rein.htm).

I experienced a similar problem a couple of years ago with a treadmill.  Basically when switched on the treadmill was propagating electrical noise through the house wiring and played havoc with the router.  I bought a Tacima CS929 main conditioner which has an earth line choke as well as some high frequency capacitors and choke.  With the treadmill plugged in to the mains conditioner the noise at the router was gone.

They can be bought for around £25, so if you think that the noise at your router could be reaching it via the house wiring it may be worth giving one a go.

Edit:

Although it could be the TV that's causing the problems, do you have a Sky box attached to your phone line?  If your router is OK when in the test socket that seems to suggest that it may not be the mains propagating the noise.

Title: Re: ADSL2+ connection breaks when television is turned on
Post by: HPsauce on August 01, 2009, 03:54:41 PM

Quote from: richard on August 01, 2009, 03:08:08 PM

except when the router is connected to the test socket, in which case the problem doesn't occur.

That strongly suggests inappropriate or faulty extension wiring, which is definitely not BT's responsibility, it's yours I'm afraid. It's a very common occurence, especially with ADSL2+ which is more sensitive to interference.
Faulty wiring can and does act like a huge aerial collecting interference that disrupts the broadband signal.
Most (all?) ADSL2+ ISP's are pretty clued up on this and will have guides on optimising your wiring - who is your ISP?

Title: Re: ADSL2+ connection breaks when television is turned on
Post by: richard on August 01, 2009, 04:03:43 PM

Quote from: orainsear on August 01, 2009, 03:52:04 PM

Sounds like your TV is a source of REIN (http://www.kitz.co.uk/adsl/rein.htm).

I experienced a similar problem a couple of years ago with a treadmill.  Basically when switched on the treadmill was propagating electrical noise through the house wiring and played havoc with the router.  I bought a Tacima CS929 main conditioner which has an earth line choke as well as some high frequency capacitors and choke.  With the treadmill plugged in to the mains conditioner the noise at the router was gone.

They can be bought for around £25, so if you think that the noise at your router could be reaching it via the house wiring it may be worth giving one a go.

Thanks, I'll try one. :)

Quote from: HPsauce on August 01, 2009, 03:54:41 PM

Quote from: richard on August 01, 2009, 03:08:08 PM

except when the router is connected to the test socket, in which case the problem doesn't occur.

That strongly suggests inappropriate or faulty extension wiring, which is definitely not BT's responsibility, it's yours I'm afraid. It's a very common occurence, especially with ADSL2+ which is more sensitive to interference.
Faulty wiring can and does act like a huge aerial collecting interference that disrupts the broadband signal.
Most (all?) ADSL2+ ISP's are pretty clued up on this and will have guides on optimising your wiring - who is your ISP?

How do I tell if my extension wiring is faulty?

My ISP is Demon. I'm planning to migrate to a different ISP when this problem is resolved because Demon's customer service has become appalling. It took them nearly a month for them to tell me that their was no detectable fault on the line and that I should contact BT.

Title: Re: ADSL2+ connection breaks when television is turned on
Post by: HPsauce on August 01, 2009, 04:25:35 PM

Quote from: richard on August 01, 2009, 04:03:43 PM

Thanks, I'll try one. :)

Before you spend any money check out your wiring, it really is the most likely cause.  ;)
Here's a good starting point: http://www.kitz.co.uk/adsl/socket.htm

Title: Re: ADSL2+ connection breaks when television is turned on
Post by: orainsear on August 01, 2009, 04:42:21 PM

Quote from: HPsauce on August 01, 2009, 04:25:35 PM

Before you spend any money check out your wiring

Yep good advice - no point in buying something if you don't need it.

When you are checking out your wiring pay particular attention to whether you have the ring wire connected.

Title: Re: ADSL2+ connection breaks when television is turned on
Post by: mr_chris on August 02, 2009, 01:58:20 PM

Since it hasn't been said already, it may well be worth checking / replacing your filters and/or trying to ensure your telephone cable and router are far enough away from the television. Since it's also happening (albeit to a lesser degree) when you receive a phone call, it might be worth looking at your filters.

Some devices, particularly, but not limited to, Sky boxes and fax machines, sometimes require double filtering (plugging one filter into another) - everything and anything is worth a try.

It does look like your TV is causing a lot of interference though - and as you say replacing it isn't a viable option, given the cost and inconvenience involved!

Please report your findings back though - hope you manage to improve the issue somehow. Fingers crossed :)

Title: Re: ADSL2+ connection breaks when television is turned on
Post by: jid on August 02, 2009, 04:26:47 PM

Do you have a telephone extension running past or near your TV.

If so it could be the cause. However as others have said, its most likely your extension wiring.

>> How do I tell if my extension wiring is faulty?

You found this out yourself as when you connected to the Test Socket the problems you were having disappeared.

Title: Re: ADSL2+ connection breaks when television is turned on
Post by: coolsnakeman on August 02, 2009, 08:16:32 PM

Quote from: orainsear on August 01, 2009, 03:52:04 PM

do you have a Sky box attached to your phone line? 

As mentioned about the sky tv make sure you have this filtered correctly and not actually plugging into your phone socket without a filter as this will cause these issues. If this is fine then its more than likely your internal wiring as proved by connecting into the test socket and that is unfortunately your responsibility to maintain that is off course if you want to pay BT £125 or more to come out and fix it for you which i doubt that would interest you lol.

Title: Re: ADSL2+ connection breaks when television is turned on
Post by: richard on October 19, 2009, 10:57:48 AM

Is it possible to shield the telephone extension wiring running near the television without rewiring the whole house?

Title: Re: ADSL2+ connection breaks when television is turned on
Post by: waltergmw on October 19, 2009, 11:38:11 AM

Provided you can get access to your cable any length could be replaced with Cat 5 FTP (Foil {sheathed} Twisted pair).

However, how do you know which piece of cable is actually picking up the noise?

I suggest some noise source investigations followed by their elimination would possibly be a better apparoach.
Kind regards,
Walter

Title: Re: ADSL2+ connection breaks when television is turned on
Post by: richard on January 13, 2010, 01:45:21 AM

Removing the bell wire stopped the television from disrupting the connection, but not incoming telephone calls. It also significantly increased my downstream speed.

So much for BT's claim that installing an I-Plate has the same effect as removing the bell wire! :wall:

Title: Re: ADSL2+ connection breaks when television is turned on
Post by: jeffbb on January 13, 2010, 10:34:10 AM

Hi
Good news TV now ok .  :)

Telephone still a problem  this link  (http://www.kitz.co.uk/adsl/splitter_install.htm) shows filter connection options

this link  (http://www.kitz.co.uk/adsl/connectionprobs.htm) may assist with phone interference troubleshoot

Regards Jeff

Title: Re: ADSL2+ connection breaks when television is turned on
Post by: sevenlayermuddle on January 13, 2010, 08:02:12 PM

Quote from: richard on January 13, 2010, 01:45:21 AM

So much for BT's claim that installing an I-Plate has the same effect as removing the bell wire! :wall:

Actually, an iPlate really should have the same effect as removing the bell wire.  I'm sure I'm not alone in being interested as to why, in your case, it wasn't so.

One possible suggestion... did you disconnect the bell wire at all sockets, or just the master?  It's the master that matters most, though some folks argue for it to be removed at all sockets.

The thing is,  it's not uncommon to find that a property has more than one master socket installed, if that's all the builder had left,  in the mistaken belief it will do no harm.  Actually, it has several drawbacks for ADSL, most notably the fact that it will 'undo' the effect of an iPlate, or of disconnecting the bell wire at the master alone.   But disconnecting from all sockets would mask the effects of a second master.     So, if you disconnected at all sockets, is there any chance there's more than one master socket (recognised by having the capacitor on the PCB)?

Title: Re: ADSL2+ connection breaks when television is turned on
Post by: waltergmw on January 13, 2010, 11:29:41 PM

Just to amplify 7LM's note on the capacitor in Master Sockets; note that as well as the split front plate type, they can be single or twin wall plate sockets or even the small surface mount box.

Kind regards,
Walter

Title: Re: ADSL2+ connection breaks when television is turned on
Post by: richard on January 14, 2010, 08:15:48 AM

Quote from: sevenlayermuddle on January 13, 2010, 08:02:12 PM

Quote from: richard on January 13, 2010, 01:45:21 AM

So much for BT's claim that installing an I-Plate has the same effect as removing the bell wire! :wall:

Actually, an iPlate really should have the same effect as removing the bell wire.  I'm sure I'm not alone in being interested as to why, in your case, it wasn't so.

One possible suggestion... did you disconnect the bell wire at all sockets, or just the master?  It's the master that matters most, though some folks argue for it to be removed at all sockets.

The thing is,  it's not uncommon to find that a property has more than one master socket installed, if that's all the builder had left,  in the mistaken belief it will do no harm.  Actually, it has several drawbacks for ADSL, most notably the fact that it will 'undo' the effect of an iPlate, or of disconnecting the bell wire at the master alone.   But disconnecting from all sockets would mask the effects of a second master.     So, if you disconnected at all sockets, is there any chance there's more than one master socket (recognised by having the capacitor on the PCB)?

I think the engineer I hired removed the bell wire from all sockets.

I'm not sure if my house has multiple master sockets, but I'm not surprised I'm experiencing problems considering what a mess the telephone wiring is. There are several sockets in unusual locations which have never worked.

Title: Re: ADSL2+ connection breaks when television is turned on
Post by: sevenlayermuddle on January 14, 2010, 10:51:36 AM

Quote from: richard on January 14, 2010, 08:15:48 AM

The are several sockets in unusual locations which have never worked.

Non-working sockets may imply a broken conductor.  If it only affects one conducter of the telephony pair, then the surviving conductor acts as a big aerial to pick up interference, just as the bell-wire does in a normal installation.   If that's what was causing the problems, then I'm not surprised an iPlate alone didn't fix it.  Hopefully, a hired engineer would have fixed anything like that, as well as disconnecting the bell wire.

Title: Re: ADSL2+ connection breaks when television is turned on
Post by: richard on January 22, 2011, 01:27:38 PM

I thought I'd give a long-overdue update to this thread for the benefit of anyone else experiencing this problem. :)

I found an excellent BT broadband engineer who discovered that the problem was caused by some telephone extension wiring being in very close proximity to the television's wiring. He solved it by disconnecting the bell wire and installing an ADSL-filtered faceplate, to which the router's modem was then connected.

I was also experiencing another problem whereby my Internet connection was often interrupted when the telephone rang. The engineer discovered that this was caused by a fault at my telephone exchange after completely disconnecting the house's wiring from the master socket. Our ISP, Demon, were horrendously uncooperative in resolving the problem, despite their legal obligation to ensure their equipment is in working order. The problem immediately disappeared after I switched to Be (who also use ADSL2+).