Kitz Forum

Broadband Related => ADSL Issues => Topic started by: noposter on April 15, 2018, 02:57:55 PM

Title: HG612 using G.DMT returning ADSL Max speeds rather than ADSL2+
Post by: noposter on April 15, 2018, 02:57:55 PM
Hi, I recently just got a Hg612 I had lying about unlocked and setup for using as a modem with my Netgear R9000 router.

It runs fine, and I have a far better stable connection than I did with the Smarthub due to being able to use different DNS settings than the dodgy ones on the Smarthub.

However it's refusing to use the ADSL2/ADSL2+ option. It only connects to the G.DMT option which I believe is ADSL Max?

My ADSL2+ connection is 3.58mbit down & 1.15mbit up, though I never saw that upload on the Smarthub.

ADSL Max I understand caps out at about 2.2mbit or so down, and then 448kbit up. These are sort of the speeds I am seeing in the line rate and so am getting. The attainable speeds is the full 3.58mbit.

I read that switching from VC-Mux to LLC is something that should help, though the connection is just the same and still will not work over ADSL2/2+.

Is there the possibility it could be the dsl/phone splitter that's the cause?

I am using a shared ADSL/VDSL one. Don't think it says ADSL2/2+ on it but it worked perfectly fine with the Smarthub. I'll update whether swapping that changes anything.

Here's a joined screenshot of my settings in the attached image.

If anyone is able to help with this, that'll be great. Btw, we are on BT's ADSL2+. Though as I have the settings setup on my router regarding getting online with BT, that's not really relevant is it?

Thanks for all the fantastic information available here. Really has helped.
Title: Re: HG612 using G.DMT returning ADSL Max speeds rather than ADSL2+
Post by: kitzuser87430 on April 15, 2018, 03:21:13 PM
I suggest you untuck "all" and tick "adsl2" in the DSL configuration page

Ian
Title: Re: HG612 using G.DMT returning ADSL Max speeds rather than ADSL2+
Post by: re0 on April 15, 2018, 03:21:34 PM
Hi,

Welcome to the forum.

Sorry if I cannot be any immediate help, since I do not own a HG612 any more (and not for some years). Though I imagine someone who owns the device currently may be able to shed some light onto it if it is a known issue.

Just to clarify what you said, if you tick either ADSL2/2+ and not "ALL" it does not synchronise at all?

Just to note, G.DMT is NOT ADSL Max, but rather ADSL Max implemented G.DMT modulation for use; up to 8 Mbps downstream, typically with 448 Kbps upstream on ADSL Max unless it was IPStream Max service which allowed for 832 Kbps (though, in theory, the technology could utilise up to 1.3 Mbps upstream). Later versions of xDSL such as ADSL2 and ADSL2+ are known as G.DMT.bis and G.DMT.bisplus likewise.
Title: Re: HG612 using G.DMT returning ADSL Max speeds rather than ADSL2+
Post by: noposter on April 15, 2018, 03:33:09 PM
Correct, switching it to specifically use only ADSL2/2+, it won't work. But if I select all, it will work by using G.DMT.

Switched the ADSL Filter to see if that'd change anything, though sadly that hasn't.

It's definitely a keeper this setup even as it is though. Even with the slower speed, it's seemingly faster due to switching away from the problematic DNS of the Smarthub. Just would be nice to work out to get it back to the full line speed.
Title: Re: HG612 using G.DMT returning ADSL Max speeds rather than ADSL2+
Post by: re0 on April 15, 2018, 03:48:30 PM
That's fairly odd. To me, that would indicate that the line is only capable of ADSL (G.DMT modulation) and not ADSL2/2+ (or, in other words, you're not provisioned on a product that uses ADSL2/2+). I am not up to scratch with legacy products such as ADSL Max that are provided by Openreach, but I am pretty sure it has been retired (only connections provisioned before it's stop sale date still have it?).

It doesn't look like a simple filter switch will make any difference here. Perhaps you could give us a copy of the stats shown on your Smarthub to be absolutely sure which modulation it is using?
Title: Re: HG612 using G.DMT returning ADSL Max speeds rather than ADSL2+
Post by: noposter on April 15, 2018, 04:02:28 PM
The Line modulation showing in the Smarthub stats is:

G_992_1_ANNEX_A

And the line rate on the Smarthub is:

448 Kbps / 3.33 Mbps

So I guess it actually is doing what it should be, but still the modem only giving 2.8 most of the time, which in turn I usually only get about 2mbit from in real usage, it's quite a difference which is very strange.
Title: Re: HG612 using G.DMT returning ADSL Max speeds rather than ADSL2+
Post by: re0 on April 15, 2018, 04:16:58 PM
It looks like your connection is PROBABLY an ADSL Max connection if the Smarthub is also synchronising with the upstream of 448 Kbps. G.DMT can actually synchronise higher than 448 Kbps, so this is a telltale sign for me.

Just out of interest, could you let us know which exchange you are on and see what the DSL Checker says? Perhaps just make a snippy of the available products and attach it to your post. https://www.dslchecker.bt.com/ (https://www.dslchecker.bt.com/)
Title: Re: HG612 using G.DMT returning ADSL Max speeds rather than ADSL2+
Post by: noposter on April 15, 2018, 04:33:31 PM
Just attached. Would be on the glorious Fibre if it was available, but lost it when switched Jan last year from EE. Hoping it'll be available by the time our contract has ended in June next year with BT, as what pay now for this damn connection, could be paying Vodafone just £2 more for the full 78mbit. But that G.fast planned is interesting!

ADSL Max is available along with ADSL2+. I think maybe we must of been on the ADSL2+ around the end of last year as the connection went up from 3.5mbit to 4.5mbit for a while, but then it's come back to the 3.5mbit it was before. Will damn well have to be onto BT about that then if that's the case, as being on ADSL Max is not what we're paying for when the ADSL2+ is available.

What I don't get about the availablity though. I understand the VDSL capacity is at the limit, so unless someone comes off or it got upgraded, can't get it. But if I put 5 at the end instead of 9 in the telephone number, it shows the exact same cabinet, cabinet 5, same exchange, Spencers Wood, etc.. But it says VDSL is available at 25mbit down/2mbit up speeds. That I really do not get.
Title: Re: HG612 using G.DMT returning ADSL Max speeds rather than ADSL2+
Post by: re0 on April 15, 2018, 05:08:45 PM
Just attached. Would be on the glorious Fibre if it was available, but lost it when switched Jan last year from EE. Hoping it'll be available by the time our contract has ended in June next year with BT, as what pay now for this damn connection, could be paying Vodafone just £2 more for the full 78mbit.
Your best bet to getting on FTTC again would be to monitor the DSL Checker daily and wait for it to show available. I read somewhere on this forum that the waiting list is not actually a queue, but rather first come first served as soon as soon as it becomes available. If an ISP has an order pending availability on their system for a customer, depending on when that ISP queries the database for availability, you could essentially get in before them if you order as soon as it becomes "available". If I am wrong, someone please correct me.

But that G.fast planned is interesting!
Since the pilot is pretty much over, the national rollout has begun. Quite a few cabinets (including my own) are showing "planned", but there is not much information in reference to when it will actually be enabled. A typical G.fast deployment (according to Openreach) can take around 3 months, but with other variables it could take longer.

ADSL Max is available along with ADSL2+. I think maybe we must of been on the ADSL2+ around the end of last year as the connection went up from 3.5mbit to 4.5mbit for a while, but then it's come back to the 3.5mbit it was before. Will damn well have to be onto BT about that then if that's the case, as being on ADSL Max is not what we're paying for when the ADSL2+ is available.
You should query BT in reference to your broadband connection if you are not sure. I am a bit perplexed as I am not aware of any capping that BT do on their ADSL2+ connections for upstream sync speed, and nor I am aware of any banding on upstream. I should note that I do not have ADSL any more, and it has been a few years since I had it last.

There is a post on a Plusnet forum (https://community.plus.net/t5/Broadband/Stuck-on-G-DMT/m-p/1153950/highlight/true#M274608 (https://community.plus.net/t5/Broadband/Stuck-on-G-DMT/m-p/1153950/highlight/true#M274608)) that may provide some insight into whether you are on 20CN or 21CN connectivity (the former will be ADSL Max, and the latter will be technology capable of ADSL2/2+ modulation).

You may have seen 4.5 Mbps in the past when your SNR margin was lower (perhaps it used to be 6 dB), but if you have experienced a lot of errors or disconnections exceeding speficied thresholds on the DLM defined by your stability profile then you may have lost some of that speed as the parameters have been adjusted to induce stability. I can see that in one of your screenshots it is showing a SNRM of 14.2 dB, so the target is most likely 15 dB currently.

What I don't get about the availablity though. I understand the VDSL capacity is at the limit, so unless someone comes off or it got upgraded, can't get it. But if I put 5 at the end instead of 9 in the telephone number, it shows the exact same cabinet, cabinet 5, same exchange etc.. But it says VDSL is available at 25mbit down/2mbit up speeds. That I really do not get.
I am not an expert with the DSL Checker, but it could be an error with their database. Perhaps someone here can give more an insight into that. Regardless, you could still enquire with BT (since you are still in contract with them) if you think it is available on your cabinet and they should be able to query Openreach directly in regards to that. It could be your lucky day!

Perhaps you could specify which exchange you are on? I can see you've listed your cabinet above, but no reference to the exchange! :)
Title: Re: HG612 using G.DMT returning ADSL Max speeds rather than ADSL2+
Post by: noposter on April 15, 2018, 05:29:24 PM
Sorry I did edit to include it though you must of not seen it lol. [ cab info removed]

I'm not personally that bothered about getting on Fibre, as this ADSL is usable. It's just not so obviously for uploading/downloading. But that does get me out in town to make use of the fast hotspots (mainly the Apple Store in town).

If fibre became available again when our contract is up, then switching to Vodafone as I mentioned.. or whoever then is the best price, will be when bother with fibre. With BT, there's no way I feel like paying £45 for the full fibre when, other than my downloading/uploading needs, this connection does the job.

Much prefer to put up with a slower connection, spend the extra I would be on BT's Fibre on other things, and have a need to get out rather than not feeling like going out because I can simply do everything I need at home lol. It gets me out more with my camera photographing and filming in reality rather than constantly making videos in games.

The one other good thing than getting out more since losing fibre, it helped me big time making my website work nice and fast on a slow connection. (I totally didn't optimise beforehand and used full sized images on my gallery thumbs instead of optimised thumbnails.. Definitely was a bad mistake then lol).
Title: Re: HG612 using G.DMT returning ADSL Max speeds rather than ADSL2+
Post by: atkinsong on April 15, 2018, 05:47:50 PM

What I don't get about the availablity though. I understand the VDSL capacity is at the limit, so unless someone comes off or it got upgraded, can't get it. But if I put 5 at the end instead of 9 in the telephone number, it shows the exact same cabinet, cabinet 5, same exchange, Spencers Wood, etc.. But it says VDSL is available at 25mbit down/2mbit up speeds. That I really do not get.

If you use a number that already has a VDSL connection, then the checker will show it as being available. It will only show the true cabinet state if the number used does not have VDSL or via a postcode check.
Title: Re: HG612 using G.DMT returning ADSL Max speeds rather than ADSL2+
Post by: re0 on April 15, 2018, 05:48:45 PM
Well, if there is a benefit to having a poor connection then it is that it forces you to do other things!

At least we have managed to establish that it is not a problem with the HG612, but rather something that is outside of your control.

Did you look at the link I provided? jelv says that if you run BTW diagnostics (at http://www.speedtest.btwholesale.com/PerformanceTesterWS/diagnostics.do (http://www.speedtest.btwholesale.com/PerformanceTesterWS/diagnostics.do)) "it reports downstream only you are on 20CN, if it reports both up and down you are on 21CN." This will certainly provide an insight, but I think it will need chasing with BT anyway so they can investigate and reset the line profile if necessary.

Just be aware not to swich the modems too often in a single day as the DLM may think your line is unstable. It looks like your line is already at the highest SNRM with interleaving, but you could risk capping.
Title: Re: HG612 using G.DMT returning ADSL Max speeds rather than ADSL2+
Post by: noposter on April 15, 2018, 06:39:19 PM
Yea now I know it's not an issue with my setup, I won't be changing it again.

Here's the result I got from that which is showing the upstream. So this definitely is weird.

The last time I tried a modem too, a Netgear ADSL2+/VDSL modem, last year, that just wouldn't get any connection, now thinking of it.. pointing towards this being ADSL Max. But how's it ADSL Max then if it's showing a upstream, which is only supposedly the case for ADSL2+?

This is so weird. Anyone know how I can get throw to a British BT call centre? As the Indian ones just are so frustrating.

The guy the other week, I had to explain to him the difference between WiFi, & DSL when he was trying to get me to split the SSID 2.4ghz & 5ghz bands up so I "get a stronger WiFi connection from the exchange" when the problem was the smarthub router keep losing connection to the internet, which I didn't even use the Wifi on lol.

The one yesterday I had to explain that port forwarding is for opening up things on your local network (such as a web server) for accessing elsewhere outside of the network.. What I had problems with is the DNS of the Smarthub that wasn't as the time letting me use the internet (but over a VPN worked).

I understand not everyone knows everything. So regarding port forwarding and DNS, that's forgivable. But being on the front line customer services for networking, and not understanding the difference between DSL & Wifi etc, that's just frustratingly dumb.

Sorry for that tad rant. Just you would think that to be a customer services worker for BT or so, there would at least be a test to make sure these things are known.
Title: Re: HG612 using G.DMT returning ADSL Max speeds rather than ADSL2+
Post by: noposter on April 15, 2018, 06:41:57 PM
If you use a number that already has a VDSL connection, then the checker will show it as being available. It will only show the true cabinet state if the number used does not have VDSL or via a postcode check.

Thanks for that. It would make so much more sense if it was stated "in use" rather than "available". But what's life without confusement lol
Title: Re: HG612 using G.DMT returning ADSL Max speeds rather than ADSL2+
Post by: ejs on April 15, 2018, 07:03:48 PM
It's quite possible to be on 21CN, with your line set to ADSL1 only. Plusnet have (or had) a policy of putting long lines, or lines with low estimates, on ADSL1, out of fear that ADSL2+ might be worse on such long lines.

Perhaps someone, at some point, set your line to ADSL1 and set the capped 448k upstream, presumably in an attempt to make your line more stable.

At these speeds, there won't be much difference between ADSL1 and ADSL2/2+ anyway.
Title: Re: HG612 using G.DMT returning ADSL Max speeds rather than ADSL2+
Post by: Chrysalis on April 15, 2018, 07:23:43 PM
I would not worry about it, adsl2+ will very likely perform worse than adsl1 on this line.  Which leaves plain adsl2, since there is no SRA been used, adsl1 is probably the best mode for compatibility.
Title: Re: HG612 using G.DMT returning ADSL Max speeds rather than ADSL2+
Post by: noposter on April 15, 2018, 07:25:58 PM
The main thing I loved when it went up to 4.5mbit, VoIP on Discord was bareable. On 3.5mbit, it just doesn't work. But 480p video, as long as that works, and general browsing works, I'm alright with. At least this isn't as bad as when we first got online back in Oct 2010 and had a faulty router only giving 0.5mbit download when we were supposed to be getting 3.5mbit which we did get as soon as it got replaced lol.
Title: Re: HG612 using G.DMT returning ADSL Max speeds rather than ADSL2+
Post by: re0 on April 15, 2018, 09:09:55 PM
Here's the result I got from that which is showing the upstream. So this definitely is weird.
Well, from that information, it looks to be a 21CN connection then. So no 20CN ADSL Max. The figures reported by the speedtest are certainly wrong, but could be because of your web browser.

It's quite possible to be on 21CN, with your line set to ADSL1 only. Plusnet have (or had) a policy of putting long lines, or lines with low estimates, on ADSL1, out of fear that ADSL2+ might be worse on such long lines.

Perhaps someone, at some point, set your line to ADSL1 and set the capped 448k upstream, presumably in an attempt to make your line more stable.
Has BT also had this policy? Since the OP's ISP is BT. I still think the OP should contact BT and ask for the upstream cap to removed in any case (as it seems to exist, along with being ADSL1 only), since the line is certainly capable (from a distance perspective) to get somewhere between 800-1100 Kbps upstream.

At these speeds, there won't be much difference between ADSL1 and ADSL2/2+ anyway.
I would not worry about it, adsl2+ will very likely perform worse than adsl1 on this line.  Which leaves plain adsl2, since there is no SRA been used, adsl1 is probably the best mode for compatibility.
I certainly would agree with you both, since the line is fairly attenuated by the distance to likely be able allocate frequencies above the range of G.DMT (and even if it could, it probably wouldn't be stable). Though, I was a bit perplexed to how the upstream was limited and it was definitely worth investigating it to be sure.

The main thing I loved when it went up to 4.5mbit, VoIP on Discord was bareable. On 3.5mbit, it just doesn't work. But 480p video, as long as that works, and general browsing works, I'm alright with.
I think that the lack of decent upstream will cause some issues with certain services more than your downstream speed. This may be the biggest issue.

Other than that, I have noticed that your SNRM seems to be set at 15 dB interleaved, which could either be resulting from a long line with frequencies impacted by interference and/or because of bad wiring or filtering. You might want to look at this page (http://www.kitz.co.uk/adsl/socket.htm (http://www.kitz.co.uk/adsl/socket.htm)) to check your wiring and filtering and see if you can improve it further if you are bothered by it. At 6 dB, if the line can support it, you could realistically see around 3500-4000 Kbps downstream.
Title: Re: HG612 using G.DMT returning ADSL Max speeds rather than ADSL2+
Post by: noposter on April 15, 2018, 09:41:12 PM
Here's an updated screenshot showing the current line stats.

The speed has gone up now and the db has gone down a bit. Though the errors have mounted up big.

Regarding the line, we had OpenReach move the master socket around April or so last year upstairs into my room where my desk is, rather than being down on the floor by the front door inside a cupboard at that too it was!

So the socket is an OpenReach one now, where it used to be a crazy old one due to that this is a 1930s house.

Before I treat this as any issues on the part of the line, would it be anything do with if you use one of the other of the LLC or VCMux options? I switched it earlier as like said, to LLC from VCMux. It seems to work no different with either option, but is that possibly by being on LLC option that am having errors?
Title: Re: HG612 using G.DMT returning ADSL Max speeds rather than ADSL2+
Post by: burakkucat on April 15, 2018, 09:58:28 PM
Please do not take any notice of the values reported under the Statistics tab of the HG612 GUI. The data is reported incorrectly.

You need to access the HG612 via telnet or ssh and use the output returned by an invocation of --

xdslcmd info --stats
Title: Re: HG612 using G.DMT returning ADSL Max speeds rather than ADSL2+
Post by: re0 on April 15, 2018, 10:01:24 PM
The speed has gone up now and the db has gone down a bit. Though the errors have mounted up big.
Perhaps the SNR drop is just because of the normal variation of background interference conditions since, at least on longer lines, it is not exactly unheard of for the SNR to swing by as much as around 3 dB between day and night. As for the errors, the CRC (Cyclic Redundancy Check) counter is most concerning as these count towards ES (Errored Seconds) that ultimately determine how the DLM treats your line. FEC (Forward Error Correction) is mostly no concern, as any number in the counter in relation to this just means how many have been corrected.

You can read more regarding error correction and detection in relation to xDSL here: http://www.kitz.co.uk/adsl/error_correction.htm (http://www.kitz.co.uk/adsl/error_correction.htm)

Before I treat this as any issues on the part of the line, would it be anything do with if you use one of the other of the LLC or VCMux options? I switched it earlier as like said, to LLC from VCMux. It seems to work no different with either option, but is that possibly by being on LLC option that am having errors?
Errors that you can see in the statistics are nothing to do with the encapsulation, but rather they just occur during data transmission over the line (the line is always transmitting data at full sync speed, regardless of whether the end user is actually transferring anything).

Please do not take any notice of the values reported under the Statistics tab of the HG612 GUI. The data is reported incorrectly.

You need to access the HG612 via telnet or ssh and use the output returned by an invocation of --

xdslcmd info --stats
Thanks for posting this, I was not aware of the incorrect data reporting on the HG612 GUI having not used one for a long time.  :)
Title: Re: HG612 using G.DMT returning ADSL Max speeds rather than ADSL2+
Post by: noposter on April 15, 2018, 10:16:20 PM
Here's the stats from telnet.
Title: Re: HG612 using G.DMT returning ADSL Max speeds rather than ADSL2+
Post by: re0 on April 15, 2018, 11:06:31 PM
Those FECs look a bit excessive, so perhaps it was caused by a burst of errors rather than something that has been consistently occurring? Judging by the high CRC count and low ES count, that is probably the case. Even so, the average FEC rate is around 500 per minute (which seems quite a lot) over the total link time.

If you want to monitor your stats you could setup something like HG612 Modem Stats (if on Windows) (http://www.kitz.co.uk/routers/hg612stats.htm (http://www.kitz.co.uk/routers/hg612stats.htm)) or DSLstats (if on Windows or Linux - including Raspberry Pi) (http://dslstats.me.uk/ (http://dslstats.me.uk/)). Preferably, any of the aforementioned applications should run 24/7 uninterrupted (so on a machine that is on all the time).

What filter are you currently using? You could benefit from trying a different filter and cable, just to see if it makes any significant difference. MOST filters are OK and will do a decent job, but some that are supplied with are modems are absolute garbage. From past experience, some of the best filters I have used are:

I can appreciate that you may not be bothered too much since you are at least getting something and it is working as you need. :) Though I certainly think you should bring up the issue discussed in this topic with your ISP regarding your line being stuck in ADSL1 with capping since it is severely restricting your upstream.

Edited to include MK3 filter.
Title: Re: HG612 using G.DMT returning ADSL Max speeds rather than ADSL2+
Post by: noposter on April 16, 2018, 12:02:00 AM
Currently using the ADSL filter that was provided with the Smarthub. I think the ADSL/VDSL shared filter I used before I switched it again, was the one that used with the EE Brightbox 2 on VDSL. Would be nice if the filters that come with ISP routers at least had a label on them to state the ISP name so you can distinguish them. I'm not using any that came with modems though.

DSLstats, I'll have to get that running in Wine on macOS considering my Mac Mini I keep on 24/7.

Will definitely contact BT about that regarding the upload. As I am forever noticing that my mobile data, even at a slower download speed, alwaus feels so much faster than the ADSL, which is all because the upload is peaking at about just as fast as the download.

Lets hope that the next time I call will be someone more useful than the last few.

But regardless, I am glad to be away from being forced to use my R9000 router in AP mode connected to the Smarthub which controlled the DHCP.  BT making the Smarthub constantly reboot every time it lost connection, kicking off everything on the LAN. That was just so infuriating.

But now the R9000 is in Router mode with the Hg612 as the modem, I do not even need the modem just to use the local network, and I definitely am not going to be kicked off if the modem loses connection.

Been just so lucky the past year that all the times the Smarthub has been playing up, was when I wasn't transferring data to/from the HDDs networked via the R9000, which I do a lot when video/photo editing. Not that I would of lost anything as such, as I save stuff locally or don't dare do cut and paste (well after a couple hard lessons lmao), until it's successful, then get rid of local versions.. But still, damn annoying when you need to copy something large again because the first time messed up.
Title: Re: HG612 using G.DMT returning ADSL Max speeds rather than ADSL2+
Post by: burakkucat on April 16, 2018, 12:46:40 AM
With regards to filters, I always recommend using a centralised filter on the NTE5 and run a data-extension to where ever the modem is to be situated. I would prefer an NTE5/A plus the Mk 3 SSFP (service specific face-plate i.e. a centralised filter) over the latest NTE5C plus Mk 4 SSFP (which is, basically, cheap tat and is best avoided).

Ideally the modem should be located adjacent to the NTE5 + SSFP so that the extremely weak incoming xDSL signal is converted to Ethernet frames at the earliest opportunity. In this usage case, the data-extension would actually be the Ethernet link between the modem and the router.
Title: Re: HG612 using G.DMT returning ADSL Max speeds rather than ADSL2+
Post by: re0 on April 16, 2018, 08:59:14 AM
I would prefer an NTE5/A plus the Mk 3 SSFP (service specific face-plate i.e. a centralised filter) over the latest NTE5C plus Mk 4 SSFP (which is, basically, cheap tat and is best avoided).

I've heard that the MK4 is absolute garbage compared to the MK3 filter. Fortunately, engineers don't usually carry or install the MK4 when doing new installs or socket changes where the NTE5C is involved due to "costs" (or at least what an engineer has told me). Though I don't have any problems with the NTE5C (not like I had much choice at install).
Title: Re: HG612 using G.DMT returning ADSL Max speeds rather than ADSL2+
Post by: ejs on April 16, 2018, 06:51:15 PM
I've heard that the MK4 is absolute garbage compared to the MK3 filter.

Where? I thought it was exactly the same thing, just in a different physical shape to fit the NTE5C.
Title: Re: HG612 using G.DMT returning ADSL Max speeds rather than ADSL2+
Post by: re0 on April 17, 2018, 04:37:22 AM
I can't remember every source for places I've visited in the past, but just doing a quick Google pulled up http://forums.thinkbroadband.com/fibre/4532655-new-mk4-faceplate.html?fpart=all (http://forums.thinkbroadband.com/fibre/4532655-new-mk4-faceplate.html?fpart=all), which strikes me as one of the places I probably visited previously when I was considering buying the MK4 filter to use in conjunction with the new socket.

Now, I wish not to insinuate that the above source is an accurate represntation of the full spectrum of users and usage scenarios considering the limited samples with concise information (there aren't really any), but rather just to back up my claim that I have "heard" it is worse.

Ignoring the filtering for the moment, the new socket itself is certainly different from the previous NTE5/A as those previous iterations had components soldered to a PCB while the NTE5C has the components literally just mounted (and not soldered) to what seems like sheets of metal which are themselves just clipped onto the plastic. I can't say at what detriment to performance, but https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jD67a-ZC7VY (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jD67a-ZC7VY) may be worth a watch if you're interested.

I do not necessarily think the filtering is worlds different from the MK3, but rather the PCB and layout of components on the MK4 is looking different. Though perhaps there is an inclusion of cheaper components? Maybe someone could shed some light on this.
Title: Re: HG612 using G.DMT returning ADSL Max speeds rather than ADSL2+
Post by: tubaman on April 17, 2018, 08:31:53 AM
Having just looked at the close-up photos of an NTE5C at http://www.davefrydoes.co.uk/install-an-new-style-nte5c-bt-openreach-etc-telephone-master-socket-replacing-nte5a/  (http://www.davefrydoes.co.uk/install-an-new-style-nte5c-bt-openreach-etc-telephone-master-socket-replacing-nte5a/) I must say I'm in shock at the cheapness of the build quality. :no:
I'd heard they were bad, but I didn't realise how bad!
They are probably fine when new, but I suspect Openreach may regret using these when the faults start rolling in in the years to come.
 :)
Title: Re: HG612 using G.DMT returning ADSL Max speeds rather than ADSL2+
Post by: re0 on April 17, 2018, 09:53:00 AM
One thing I overlooked when I originally wrote my comment is that potentially the MK4 has a bad reputation not necessarily because it is inferior to the MK3, but rather because the NTE5C is of a worse quality compared to NTE5/A. Perhaps the MK4 has the approximate level of filtering and performance of the MK3, but in conjunction with the NTE5C (the only socket it will fit) it performs worse than the MK3 combined with NTE5/A? Just a thought, of course.
Title: Re: HG612 using G.DMT returning ADSL Max speeds rather than ADSL2+
Post by: ejs on April 17, 2018, 08:19:43 PM
Considering the contents of our BT66 on an outside wall, I'm pretty sure that whatever type of master socket I have is the least of my worries. :P

In this case, I don't think the finer points of exactly which type of modern master socket, filter and a fancy dsl cable are going to be the cause of a substantially underperforming ADSL line.
Title: Re: HG612 using G.DMT returning ADSL Max speeds rather than ADSL2+
Post by: noposter on April 21, 2018, 08:30:13 PM
The line has got back up to speed which is nice. I tbh don't want to mess with that upload considering I'd have to move to ADSL2+ for it to be uncapped, as if ADSL2+ isn't as stable as ADSL Max on rural lines, I definitely don't want to risk making things worse. Thanms though for all the help!
Title: Re: HG612 using G.DMT returning ADSL Max speeds rather than ADSL2+
Post by: ejs on April 21, 2018, 08:50:41 PM
You can have uncapped upstream on WBC (21CN) ADSL1 (for free).

You could have the line set to ADSL2+, then set the mode yourself on the modem if necessary. You won't know which of ADSL1/2/2+ is best for your line unless you try them.
Title: Re: HG612 using G.DMT returning ADSL Max speeds rather than ADSL2+
Post by: re0 on April 21, 2018, 08:59:00 PM
The line has got back up to speed which is nice.
Good to see that it's at a healthier speed with fastpath.

... ADSL2+ isn't as stable as ADSL Max on rural lines ...
ADSL2+ isn't as stable as ADSL (known as G.DMT) or ADSL2 (known as G.DMT.bis) on longer lines. ADSL Max refers to old IPStream (backhaul) connectivity (which I do not believe you are on based on what you've said).

You can have uncapped upstream on WBC (21CN) ADSL1 (for free).

You could have the line set to ADSL2+, then set the mode yourself on the modem if necessary. You won't know which of ADSL1/2/2+ is best for your line unless you try them.
I agree with ejs. Plus, you have a lot to gain from uncapping the upstream.
Title: Re: HG612 using G.DMT returning ADSL Max speeds rather than ADSL2+
Post by: ejs on April 21, 2018, 09:11:17 PM
I think it's not really ADSL2+ itself that's worse than the others on longer lines, it's just than some of the older exchange equipment isn't very good at ADSL2+ (on any length of line). On newer types of exchange equipment, it selects ADSL2 automatically when appropriate, or it makes no difference. But people don't seem to complain about it like they do about ECI vs. Huawei FTTC cabinets.
Title: Re: HG612 using G.DMT returning ADSL Max speeds rather than ADSL2+
Post by: Chrysalis on April 22, 2018, 12:05:43 AM
adsl2+ allocates less power per tone, even if higher tones are not used (not sure if its supposed to beef up power on lower tones if no high ones used, but thats not my experience).

Thats the reasoning I have always considered it poorer on longer lines, short lines still can get enough bitloading for good performance with the reduced power so isnt a problem on those lines.

I see it fairly consistently when people try adsl2+ on long lines it performs worse than adsl2.

Given that modems will always try adsl2+ first even on high loop loss, I think locking long lines down to adsl1 at the dslam is sound.

Locking down to adsl2+adsl1 is possibly better, but BT with their rigid profiles probably dont have such a profile, so the next best thing is just for an ISP to order the adsl1 product.
Title: Re: HG612 using G.DMT returning ADSL Max speeds rather than ADSL2+
Post by: ejs on April 22, 2018, 07:19:46 AM
I think the power levels and limits per tone are exactly the same in the ADSL2 and ADSL2+ specifications.
Title: Re: HG612 using G.DMT returning ADSL Max speeds rather than ADSL2+
Post by: Chrysalis on April 22, 2018, 05:02:00 PM
Well I posted my observations on tbb a while back, someone came back and confirmed the power per tone is lower, but they also said its supposed to be increased if less tones are used.

On ukonline my adsl2 sync was lower than adsl1 but only by a small amount a couple of hundred kbit.  On adsl2+ it was about 1.5mbit lower, a much larger amount.
Title: Re: HG612 using G.DMT returning ADSL Max speeds rather than ADSL2+
Post by: ejs on April 22, 2018, 05:41:23 PM
Well, less speed achieved would generally be due to less signal or more noise. What I'm saying is, that if it is indeed that on ADSL2+ you get lower power on some tones, that will be because the equipment in the exchange is pretty poor at doing ADSL2+, not because of any fundamental difference between the ADSL2+ and ADSL2 technical recommendations.
Title: Re: HG612 using G.DMT returning ADSL Max speeds rather than ADSL2+
Post by: Chrysalis on April 22, 2018, 06:47:07 PM
every tone was weaker the hit was equal across the board, the line wasnt good enough to use a single adsl2+ tone so it was the same tones as adsl1/adsl2, meaning any noise would apply to all 3 modes.

I am not saying you wrong, as I am no expert, but just I can understand why an isp would not allow adsl2+ on long lines to be synchronised. 1.5mbit on my line was about 25% of the line capacity so significant.
Title: Re: HG612 using G.DMT returning ADSL Max speeds rather than ADSL2+
Post by: noposter on April 29, 2018, 07:37:58 PM
Earlier had a fault in the area, one of the cabinets was apparently causing the network for everyone connected to the exchange to go down.

They fixed the fault about an hour ago from writing and the connection is much stronger again than it was before which is fantastic, back to 4mbit.

But even though we were speaking to someone from a Swansea call centre, not an Indian one, so at least he could understand... He insisted on that my setup is the problem because I don't use their s###hub, and that they need that to just simply be able to see if there's a damn fault on the line.

I just asked him how the heck do other ISPs, such as EE with their Brightbox, which is setup like a 3rd party router and isn't s### like the s###hub, see if there's faults on the line when you don't use their s###?

I just told him everything is set up right on my end, and I am happy to go through the settings with you if you want to. He just put me on hold and came back to state exactly what I asked originally. Yes there's a fault in the area.

Going to damn well keep that in mind to ask if there's a fault "in the area" not "on the line". Hopefully that'll cut us past the initial insistance on using the s###hub.

Anyway, that part is sorted, and I can definitely say in the few weeks that I've used the modem and my Netgear router instead of the s###hub, the issues I was consistantly having with the s###hub due to it's stupid locked down DNS etc, I just don't get now.

On the topic of regarding that upload cap at 448Kbit. How the heck do I get BT to actually own up that there is a cap? As the guy on the phone was just denying that there is any cap when I was specifically stating that my line is capable of uploading at 1Mbit, but is capped at 448kbit, which as mentioned, is a very known obvious cap.

If anyone can give their trick on getting it through to them, that would be great!
Title: Re: HG612 using G.DMT returning ADSL Max speeds rather than ADSL2+
Post by: re0 on April 30, 2018, 02:01:51 AM
In reference to your example, EE's BrightBox is not a third-party modem/router if used in conjunction with EE broadband (since they provided it). Though if you use something that is not provided by the ISP then it would classify as third party. Though this wouldn't stop them running line tests at all.

I imagine that it is not unusual for support at ISPs to question user setups (since they are only trained to do so as customer equipment can sometimes be the problem), especially in the case when ISP provides hardware as it will conform to the Openreach standards and work on their network. Granted, most modern routers will support virtually every ISP out of the box but they may not configure with optimal settings for the ISP and, in the case where it is a modem-router combo, it may not conform to Openreach standards (so when they do line tests they may ask you to use their provided hardware so they can be sure of the results because of conformity and it may help cover your back if your hardware is actually at fault).

Don't just take my word for it because I do not know, but maybe BT use TR-069 to access customer equipment for details. Perhaps someone could confirm whether that is something that they use?

I think we've already established that the line is on 21CN connectivity, so it is certainly not ADSL Max at least. There is no reason to why ADSL2/2+ should not be possible on BT's 21CN connectivity, and even on ADSL (G.DMT) the upstream could be over twice the rate. The DSLAM (the hardware in the exchange, or at least that is the case for ADSL variants) is preventing you from using anything but ADSL, even though you are trying to force it.

I don't have any magic words for you, but I think you need to insist that it is capped and restricted to ADSL (as opposed to ADSL2/2+).

Just on a side note, as far as I know, there is only one big ISP that disallows the usage of third-party hardware as specified in their terms and that is Sky (maybe NowTV also, but I cannot remember). There are a few more complexities to this but I won't go into them since it does not have too much relevance here.
Title: Re: HG612 using G.DMT returning ADSL Max speeds rather than ADSL2+
Post by: noposter on April 30, 2018, 02:37:11 AM
I know the EE Brightbox obviously isn't 3rd party when you're on EE, but what I meant by that as an example..
It's very much like a typical 3rd party router. It requires you to set it up in pretty much the same ways, it is advanced and not locked down, and it sure as heck does not communicate with EE in the ways that the Smarthub does with BT. Also, at least in the case of the first gen Brightbox, it could be unlocked/modded to work on other ISPs.

So yea I understand it's still the ISP's, so therefore not 3rd party. Though in the way the BT guy was insisting I need the hub for them to just check the line.. if that was the case, then EE and other ISPs with routers that are just like the Brightbox and 3rd party routers, they would definitely be doing some crazy black magic to troubleshoot connections when they don't have the control over the routers like BT has with the hubs. Or I wonder if the magic  is that most of their textbook methods on setting up connections is actually the just the same on their routers as you do with 3rd party routers.
Title: Re: HG612 using G.DMT returning ADSL Max speeds rather than ADSL2+
Post by: tickmike on April 30, 2018, 10:29:03 PM

On the topic of regarding that upload cap at 448Kbit. How the heck do I get BT to actually own up that there is a cap? As the guy on the phone was just denying that there is any cap when I was specifically stating that my line is capable of uploading at 1Mbit, but is capped at 448kbit, which as mentioned, is a very known obvious cap.

If anyone can give their trick on getting it through to them, that would be great!

 It looks like your ISP has you on maxdsl that has a limitation of 448 for the upstream.  Max premium (business) should sync at up to 832 upstream.
Title: Re: HG612 using G.DMT returning ADSL Max speeds rather than ADSL2+
Post by: re0 on April 30, 2018, 11:01:27 PM
It looks like your ISP has you on maxdsl that has a limitation of 448 for the upstream.  Max premium (business) should sync at up to 832 upstream.

ADSL Max on 21CN product?
Title: Re: HG612 using G.DMT returning ADSL Max speeds rather than ADSL2+
Post by: ejs on May 01, 2018, 06:59:08 PM
It'll be whatever they're calling ADSL1 on 21CN / WBC. The upstream can either be capped at 448k or uncapped.

Max Premium with its 832k upstream is only applicable to 20CN.

Maybe try the community.bt.com forums if you haven't already done so.
Title: Re: HG612 using G.DMT returning ADSL Max speeds rather than ADSL2+
Post by: noposter on May 01, 2018, 07:22:55 PM
Time to see what happens from
there then. Hopefully it goes smoother than the phone and hopefully they will remove it without moving me from Max.

https://community.bt.com/t5/ADSL-Copper-broadband/448kbit-upload-cap-on-21CN-ADSL-Max/td-p/1843292
Title: Re: HG612 using G.DMT returning ADSL Max speeds rather than ADSL2+
Post by: re0 on May 01, 2018, 07:45:55 PM
The thing is, it's not actually ADSL Max that you are on since the BTW speedtester returns a profile for the upstream - so it's certainly just going to be ADSL1 (G.DMT) on 21CN WBC with capped upstream.

If I am proven wrong, I will eat my hat.

I hope that they can resolve your problem on the forum. Having that extra upstream would be nice, and you should get up to around 1 Mbps (around 0.8 Mbps actual throughput).
Title: Re: HG612 using G.DMT returning ADSL Max speeds rather than ADSL2+
Post by: noposter on May 01, 2018, 07:47:26 PM
Don't mistake your hat for mine. I like my hat lol.
Title: Re: HG612 using G.DMT returning ADSL Max speeds rather than ADSL2+
Post by: re0 on May 01, 2018, 07:49:43 PM
Don't worry, I don't eat fedoras. ;)
Title: Re: HG612 using G.DMT returning ADSL Max speeds rather than ADSL2+
Post by: re0 on May 03, 2018, 11:02:16 PM
I got a bit bored and nosy, so I took a peek at the progress at the BT forums. Good to see that you've got responses, so that's progress.

DanielS said:
Quote
Providing it's available to you, we should be able to change the upstream to uncapped. However; we will have to change your onto ADSL2+.
This is confusing me a bit, since it seems like it is almost implying that you need to move from ADSL Max (to 21CN) rather than it just being the case where you are on 21CN and they just need to uncap the upstream and enable ADSL2/2+ on your line. I could be wrong, but I know BTW 21CN connectivity from the DSLAM perspective allows for capping to 448 kbps on the upstream since it was and maybe still is the standard for Plusnet provisions (I know the OP is with BT, but just for example), and I don't see any technical limitation to disabling certain modulation modes.

To me, it seems a bit counter-intuitive to provision someone on ADSL Max (20CN, essentially legacy connectivity and backhaul) where ADSL2+ enabled 21CN connectivity is available. Of course, the excuse of low estimates could be used, but to me all this is just not adding up.

Perhaps someone here can shed some light on this? I could be wrong completely ... maybe I am just going insane.

Anyway, sorry for stealing the spotlight and essentially hijacking the thread for my own curiosity.
Title: Re: HG612 using G.DMT returning ADSL Max speeds rather than ADSL2+
Post by: noposter on May 03, 2018, 11:08:53 PM
When they do enable it, if I find that ADSL2/2+ is worse than Max on my line, am I able to just switch the modem to not use ADSL2/2+ so use ADSL Max as right now whilst the ADSL2/2+ is enabled on the line?
Title: Re: HG612 using G.DMT returning ADSL Max speeds rather than ADSL2+
Post by: re0 on May 04, 2018, 12:08:02 AM
If you find the modulation modes ADSL2+ (G.DMT.bisplus) and ADSL2 (G.DMT.bis) to be worse than ADSL (G.DMT), you can specify the modulation mode to only use ADSL. Chances are, as I am pretty sure someone said a bit earlier in this thread that I agree with, ADSL2+ modulation in itself probably won't offer any benefits in terms of speed on your long line. ADSL2 may give you the best speed and stability since it has improved modulation over ADSL. Just a bit of trial and error to see what works best for you with your hardware and hardware at the exchange. Regardless, all modulation modes can support up to 1.3 Mbps upstream (unless artificially limited, as far as I know) so you will have an increase no matter which you chose compared to currently after the change.

Just to note:
While ADSL Max uses ADSL (G.DMT) modulation for its connectivity between the customer's equipment and DSLAM, it should not be used synonymously with ADSL since they are both two different things. ADSL Max refers to a type of services offered by BT (which uses the IPStream platform as a backend) while ADSL (G.DMT), like with ADSL2/2+, refers specifically to the type of modulation used by modem (modulator–demodulator) and DSLAM for communicating digital (encoded) information.
Title: Re: HG612 using G.DMT returning ADSL Max speeds rather than ADSL2+
Post by: noposter on May 04, 2018, 12:44:00 AM
A tad bit of information overload, but I think I get the important part of it.

So once I'm transferred, I just want to make sure ADSL2+ is unticked so ADSL2 is used which will firstly take off the cap and should give some more consistency than right now?
Title: Re: HG612 using G.DMT returning ADSL Max speeds rather than ADSL2+
Post by: re0 on May 04, 2018, 02:58:26 AM
My apologies. I should have just answered the question as opposed to giving too much additional information. :( I will try and make this clear.

The cap will be removed when you transfer. No matter whether you choose to use ADSL/2/2+, you will be able to attain more than 448 kbps upstream.

I think the ideal setup for you is to untick "auto" mode and ensure only ADSL2 is ticked. The reason why I think you should not tick ADSL2+ is because it does not benefit on long lines.

You may want to try your own experimentation to see which mode is best. But I think ADSL2 will give you the best speed and stability compromise.
Title: Re: HG612 using G.DMT returning ADSL Max speeds rather than ADSL2+
Post by: ejs on May 04, 2018, 06:54:05 PM
I'm pretty sure that you can have uncapped upstream on 21CN ADSL1. Refer to BT SIN 472 if you like. And the upstream on ADSL2+ can be capped to 448k. So the bit about needing to switch to ADSL2+ is incorrect (they probably incorrectly assumed that you are on 20CN, due to the endless confusion about ADSL Max).

Yes if your line is configured to use ADSL2+, you can just set your modem to use ADSL1.
Title: Re: HG612 using G.DMT returning ADSL Max speeds rather than ADSL2+
Post by: Weaver on May 05, 2018, 12:13:48 AM
What ejs said. I would be surprised if locking the modem to G.DMT (G.992.1/ADSL1) helps with performance but stranger things have been known. Definitely worth trying locking modem on to G.992.3/ADSL2-only, not auto, mode.

On 21CN I can use ISP-end controls to cap the us rate to half a dozen speeds. 488 is one of the rates listed (no 448 as in ADSL Max service).