Kitz Forum
Broadband Related => Telephony Wiring + Equipment => Topic started by: Ixel on February 17, 2018, 11:12:01 AM
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Hi all,
Hoping someone here might know the answer to my question, especially an Openreach engineer.
I'm moving house soon and the master socket is currently located in the dining room. I want it located in the front bedroom, so I've ordered a new line install as SIM provide (though Zen still haven't given me a committed date or the SIM reference and it's been two days now) so I'm thinking of just ordering with AAISP and using the stopped line in the dining room temporarily as it might activate quicker and in time for the house move.
My question is this... if I still have a new line installed by Zen for the phone calls only then will the engineer also move the current master socket if I ask or will he just place a new master socket next to the one in the dining room for the second line?
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So much confusion around installation 'do's and dont's' ......... I still to this day can't quite get my head around the full rules, but by way of a guide ........
I would definitely confirm with your CP (Not ISP, as you are choosing PSTN services only on the new line), that your connection fee covers the engineers time on-site installing the master socket exactly where you want it ??
Please bear in mind, with any CP and any installation task, the maximum time on a bog-standard task is for the work to take no more than 2hrs to wire from the DP to where you want the master socket.
If it is going to take longer than 2hrs, then we have to send the task back requesting further TRC (Time Related Charges) banding be applied before we go ahead with the installation.
Of course, most residential premises will easily fall under the 2hr remit, but thought it worth a mention. :)
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Thanks Black Sheep.
Yes, I did specify to Zen (who's doing the new line install only, not broadband as that'll be with AAISP) that I want the master socket relocated to another room and they said the order should be placed as a new line installation so an engineer turns up. I did the same for the house I'm currently in about two years ago (new line install) and the engineer relocated the master socket from the kitchen to the front bedroom.
Two hours is more than enough time I believe, I'd be amazed if it took longer than two hours :P. Thanks for mentioning it though.
My main concern is that as I've now placed an order with AAISP for the stopped line to be reactivated, when I eventually get a date from Zen regarding the new line install for voice calls only then will the engineer who turns up be fine with moving the current master socket (that will have AAISP on) to the front bedroom where I also want the new line setup (Zen)? Apologies if that sounds confusing. I'm hoping the two hours remit you mentioned will allow this.
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Someone may be able to provide a better answer as I am not 100% sure (and I am not an engineer), but I think I understood your question.
When you have the second line installed, you can have it installed anywhere within reason; it needs to be accessible by the engineer, and allow the use of existing ducting (if applicable, unless overhead direct to the pole). You just have to make where you want it clear when the engineer turns up.
As for moving the existing master socket, this is not something that can be done during your new [second] line installation appointment since your appointment will be max. three hours and for the new line in itself the engineer will need to make a hole in your wall, connect your drop to an existing pair at the pole (or underground if ducted), carry out works to the cabinet, connect the terminals to your socket and test it before leaving. Ignoring the fact they are installing a different, new service, if they could move the existing master socket they would be bound by the time constraints, and even if they had time they would be working with the existing cabling which would not leave much room for maneuver.
Essentially, if you wanted the master socket moved you would need to request this through the ISP who would probably advise that it is chargeable.
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Someone may be able to provide a better answer as I am not 100% sure (and I am not an engineer), but I think I understood your question.
When you have the second line installed, you can have it installed anywhere within reason; it needs to be accessible by the engineer, and allow the use of existing ducting (if applicable, unless overhead direct to the pole). You just have to make where you want it clear when the engineer turns up.
As for moving the existing master socket, this is not something that can be done during your new [second] line installation appointment since your appointment will be max. three hours and for the new line in itself the engineer will need to make a hole in your wall, connect your drop to an existing pair at the pole (or underground if ducted), carry out works to the cabinet, connect the terminals to your socket and test it before leaving. Ignoring the fact they are installing a different, new service, if they could move the existing master socket they would be bound by the time constraints, and even if they had time they would be working with the existing cabling which would not leave much room for maneuver.
Essentially, if you wanted the master socket moved you would need to request this through the ISP who would probably advise that it is chargeable.
I see, thanks, yeah that makes sense. I guess I'll just have to leave the master socket(s) in the dining room and run a rather long LAN cable upstairs then. I don't believe there's another way around it other than paying a lot just for an engineer to come out and move the master socket.
I'll see what Zen eventually come back to me with regarding the earliest 'committed date' for installing a new line, I have until March 6th which is when I move in, so maybe there's still enough time. I might be able to cancel the current AAISP order which is currently scheduled to be activated on or by the March 5th (remotely activate a stopped line) and re-order as SIM provide if Zen give me a good enough committed date for the new line install w/ SIM provide.
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I see, thanks, yeah that makes sense. I guess I'll just have to leave the master socket(s) in the dining room and run a rather long LAN cable upstairs then.
Is there a specific reason to why you want to have both lines terminating in the same place? Because as long as you ordered a new line installation then as long as they can access the area you want it installed it should be possible.
I don't believe there's another way around it other than paying a lot just for an engineer to come out and move the master socket.
Cost is subjective, but the value depends on how moving the master socket will benefit you. From what I have seen, the cost of moving the master socket is roughly the price of a new line installation (around £130). If you need access to the line in a different room, extensions (slave socket) can be fitted by Openreach for around half the price but you would have to enquire that. But ultimately, you could just have the modems in the dining room and run Ethernet cables across the skirting board, drill a couple of holes and fit sockets in the bedroom (or whatever suits you best).
There are probably ex-Openreach engineers who would move the move the master socket for you cheaply, but I can't say there would be much maneuvering the existing cabling.
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Is there a specific reason to why you want to have both lines terminating in the same place? Because as long as you ordered a new line installation then as long as they can access the area you want it installed it should be possible.
Cost is subjective, but the value depends on how moving the master socket will benefit you. From what I have seen, the cost of moving the master socket is roughly the price of a new line installation (around £130). If you need access to the line in a different room, extensions (slave socket) can be fitted by Openreach for around half the price but you would have to enquire that. But ultimately, you could just have the modems in the dining room and run Ethernet cables across the skirting board, drill a couple of holes and fit sockets in the bedroom (or whatever suits you best).
There are probably ex-Openreach engineers who would move the move the master socket for you cheaply, but I can't say there would be much maneuvering the existing cabling.
Well, I've done it like this is because I want the broadband activated ideally not too far from after I've moved in as I work remotely from home.
The ex-Openreach engineer is an interesting idea, but even if that were do-able isn't that 'illegal' since it's still not someone who is actively working for Openreach? I also have all the tools to relocate the wiring myself but I'm not allowed to touch the master socket hence why I was hoping I could get Openreach to do so without paying a fortune just for that task :P.
Other option I guess is I could do my own extension wiring using better quality cable (not the flat stuff)?
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There may be enough pairs in the existing feed wire, so relocating the original master to where you want the new one may well be doable in the allotted time. The feed for the new one may just be taken from the old one, if that makes sense.
Is it overhead feed or underground?
I know quite a few people who've moved their master socket, as long as you're competent, and do it correctly no one will be any the wiser ;) well except anyone who reads this forum :-X
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You'll be getting a knock on the door, very soon .... :police: :police: :police: ;D
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There may be enough pairs in the existing feed wire, so relocating the original master to where you want the new one may well be doable in the allotted time. The feed for the new one may just be taken from the old one, if that makes sense.
Yeah most likely. Well I'll offer refreshments such as some biscuits and tea or a cappuccino from my coffee machine (like from Starbucks or Costa Coffee) so maybe that'll help ;).
Is it overhead feed or underground?
It's an overhead drop wire that comes into the back of the house, so if it was to be relocated to the front bedroom I guess the engineer would have to route the cable through the back bedroom first. I doubt it'll reach though so that might be a problem unless they have an option to extend on to the wire?
I know quite a few people who've moved their master socket, as long as you're competent, and do it correctly no one will be any the wiser ;) well except anyone who reads this forum :-X
Yeah :lol:, while I can do this easily without anyone realising (other than those on here that is), I don't know if I have the guts to do so as it's 'not allowed' really. Maybe as a last resort :D.
You'll be getting a knock on the door, very soon .... :police: :police: :police: ;D
Shh..... ;)
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It's an overhead drop wire that comes into the back of the house, so if it was to be relocated to the front bedroom I guess the engineer would have to route the cable through the back bedroom first. I doubt it'll reach though so that might be a problem unless they have an option to extend on to the wire?
Does the cable come around the outside from the front of the house to the back? If so there will be plenty of cable to relocate to the front. If not they can extend it as well.
Two of my brothers have the master socket in the loft, as both cables ran down the outside of the house there was plenty of cable to reach the new location. Engineers will not go into a loft, but I believe they are OK to work off of a loft ladder or there own, so both master sockets in my brothers cases are located just inside the loft hatch. One was done by an engineer, he went up the outside of the house, poked the cable in which my brother retrieved and pulled across to the loft hatch. The engineer then fitted the master socket. My brother then run phone extensions and a data extension as required, which you are allowed to do.
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You'll be getting a knock on the door, very soon .... :police: :police: :police: ;D
That's fine, an OR engineer relocated mine FOC when I had FTTC installed, I'll not be mentioning any other names though........ :P
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One was done by an engineer, he went up the outside of the house, poked the cable in which my brother retrieved and pulled across to the loft hatch. The engineer then fitted the master socket. My brother then run phone extensions and a data extension as required, which you are allowed to do.
Would this be something any engineer would normally do? I have no idea where my cable goes so it concerns me if it ever needs changing there would be problems. It enters in the loft and ends up downstairs somehow but if engineer would just poke it through and put the socket at the top of the loft ladder that would put my mind at rest? Hopefully it would never need changing. Thanks
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Does the cable come around the outside from the front of the house to the back? If so there will be plenty of cable to relocate to the front. If not they can extend it as well.
Two of my brothers have the master socket in the loft, as both cables ran down the outside of the house there was plenty of cable to reach the new location. Engineers will not go into a loft, but I believe they are OK to work off of a loft ladder or there own, so both master sockets in my brothers cases are located just inside the loft hatch. One was done by an engineer, he went up the outside of the house, poked the cable in which my brother retrieved and pulled across to the loft hatch. The engineer then fitted the master socket. My brother then run phone extensions and a data extension as required, which you are allowed to do.
Nope, comes in the back from a nearby pole. I see.
Oddly even though I made an order to restart a stopped line I've just had a message from AAISP informing me I will need to be available for the engineer on the morning of the 6th. In the meantime Zen's order is still waiting for a committed date, lol. I guess Zen's system isn't fully automated or as efficient as AAISP's is, as the order on AAISP is now 'committed' and the FTTC part (TTB) is on 'coolingoff' while it waits for the PSTN bit to be done on the same day.
Even though I'll lose the phone number I'm wondering at this point whether I should just cancel the Zen order and cease the line at my current place after I've moved, as I've got no real certainty that the engineer will move both master sockets. So I might be better off doing the extension wiring myself with better quality cable or... you know, yeah :P. That's also assuming I can cancel the new line install order with Zen.
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Would this be something any engineer would normally do? I have no idea where my cable goes so it concerns me if it ever needs changing there would be problems. It enters in the loft and ends up downstairs somehow but if engineer would just poke it through and put the socket at the top of the loft ladder that would put my mind at rest? Hopefully it would never need changing. Thanks
I'm pretty certain the engineer won't go in the loft, but they will work off the loft ladder to mount the socket. Black Sheep will be much better informed to answer what they are and aren't allowed to do.
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I'll wait to see if Black Sheep can reply but if the engineer would poke the cable into the loft and I could pull through 5m or so along the loft to the top of the loft ladder that would be nice to know if that would be acceptable method to an engineer?
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Just seen the latest 'status' on my Zen new line installation order and...
Work in progress, since 14/02/2018 17:06
Wait for committed date - FAILED 17/02/2018 18:45
That was sitting on 'IN PROGRESS' for over a day and now it says 'FAILED'. My order with AAISP earlier however went through fine and I had a committed date within a few hours, although strangely I have an engineer appointment for AM on March 6th even though it was just meant to be a stopped line being restarted.
As a result of Zen, I've decided enough is enough with the hiccups I've had towards the end of last year and now this order being 'delayed' for quite a period of time. I have no SIM reference and no committed date with the Zen order for the new line installation since the 14th and yet the order with AAISP was done in a few hours :lol:. I will probably signup to CIX for the voice phone line, they have a fairly sophisticated control panel and a good price for the line rental and phone calls.
The above is assuming I can cancel my pending order with Zen on Monday. I know I'll lose my phone number but that's a small price to pay in my opinion.
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I believe the Openreach service you require is a "change of point of entry". It is a chargeable service but you can have the drop-cable, service feed and master socket moved to your desired location.
Weaver, I know, has made use of that service and a quick search of his posting history turns up the following --
http://forum.kitz.co.uk/index.php/topic,9723.msg296497.html#msg296497
http://forum.kitz.co.uk/index.php/topic,16300.msg302183.html#msg302183
http://forum.kitz.co.uk/index.php/topic,18586.msg334611.html#msg334611
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I believe the Openreach service you require is a "change of point of entry". It is a chargeable service but you can have the drop-cable, service feed and master socket moved to your desired location.
Weaver, I know, has made use of that service and a quick search of his posting history turns up the following --
http://forum.kitz.co.uk/index.php/topic,9723.msg296497.html#msg296497
http://forum.kitz.co.uk/index.php/topic,16300.msg302183.html#msg302183
http://forum.kitz.co.uk/index.php/topic,18586.msg334611.html#msg334611
Interesting, I'll consider it potentially a last resort option. Thing is I doubt they can route the drop cable to the front wall of the house because there's no pole at the front which is line of sight (blocked by some houses). The only two ways I can see them doing this is either to go through the back wall via one of the back bedrooms to reach the front bedroom, or alternatively to go over the roof to reach the front wall of the front bedroom (that's assuming they can and are allowed to go on a roof). If I had line of sight to the pole at the front then I could possibly be connected to the PCP that's closer to me, sadly I don't have line of sight and secondly I don't know if they'd change the PCP I was connected to as a result.
I'll call Zen on Monday and see if I can cancel the new line installation, I'll proceed with AAISP for now and perhaps contact them to enquire about this. They might have an opinion on it and may well suggest that I still pay for a "change of point of entry". In order to keep my current number I might have it ported to their VoIP service and then just configure my Gigaset phones to use that.
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I'll wait to see if Black Sheep can reply but if the engineer would poke the cable into the loft and I could pull through 5m or so along the loft to the top of the loft ladder that would be nice to know if that would be acceptable method to an engineer?
Aye, engineers are bound by the 'Working in confined spaces' rules and regs, a loft space falls within this category.
In general terms, if the area is boarded and had sufficient lighting, then we are allowed to enter ...... otherwise not.
Of course, most engineers will apply common-sense and will always work with the EU. There would be no issue at all if you performed the loft part of the installation.
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Of course, most engineers will apply common-sense and will always work with the EU. There would be no issue at all if you performed the loft part of the installation.
Thanks for the info so as long as the socket was accessible from the top of the loft ladder and the engineer didn't have to set foot in the loft that would generally be ok? Would the end user pulling cable through existing ducting for the engineer be acceptable also, if you ask the engineer to poke through 10m of cable and end user puts it in the existing ducting in the loft as long as it doesn't take ages to do this that would be ok? Thanks
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Thanks for the info so as long as the socket was accessible from the top of the loft ladder and the engineer didn't have to set foot in the loft that would generally be ok? Would the end user pulling cable through existing ducting for the engineer be acceptable also, if you ask the engineer to poke through 10m of cable and end user puts it in the existing ducting in the loft as long as it doesn't take ages to do this that would be ok? Thanks
Yes to all the above ^^^. In fact they would probably be quite suited that the EU is doing a lot of the work. ;) :) :)
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Well good news is that the new line installation order with CIX is complete in no more than a few hours. I need to change the appointment date but I'm told once I have the login (tomorrow?) then I can do this from their control panel.
In the meantime Zen... guess? If you guessed 'pending' then you would be 100% correct! Five days, I think, with no committed date still :lol:. I've sent them an email asking them to cancel the order so waiting for their response.
As for AAISP, I've been told that I have an engineer appointment for some reason but they're finding out why and will let me know. I ordered it as a 'stopped line to be restarted' which shouldn't have required an engineer appointment.
Fun times!
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As for AAISP, I've been told that I have an engineer appointment for some reason but they're finding out why and will let me know. I ordered it as a 'stopped line to be restarted' which shouldn't have required an engineer appointment.
Do either A&A or you know whether that stopped line has, in the PCP, jumpers linking the D- & E-side cables or does it have connections, via the tie cables, to the DSLAM in the "fibre twin" cabinet?
If the answer to the above is "uncertain" or "unknown" then you will require an engineer appointment.
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Do either A&A or you know whether that stopped line has, in the PCP, jumpers linking the D- & E-side cables or does it have connections, via the tie cables, to the DSLAM in the "fibre twin" cabinet?
If the answer to the above is "uncertain" or "unknown" then you will require an engineer appointment.
I won't know until AAISP confirm, but you could be right. Perhaps the stopped line is actually disconnected and needs reconnecting at the PCP or somewhere between the PCP and the house.
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Well AAISP tried to change it to the afternoon on my request, due to removal van arriving at the current house in the morning on that day, but unfortunately it wasn't possible to get an afternoon slot so I've left it as the morning and will have someone else waiting at the current house while I'll be at the new house for the engineer. I still don't know anything more than 'BT says an appointment is required', I don't think AAISP had more clarification either. I think you're right though, maybe a pair of wires needs reconnecting somewhere and then presumably tested from the master socket to make sure the new connection is working fine.
So, about two weeks from now in the morning I've got an engineer 'restarting the stopped line' for the AAISP service and in the afternoon on the same day I've got an appointment to put in a second line for CIX (phone calls only but I might consider bonding FTTC later on :), especially as AAISP now do quota balancing between terabyte and non-terabyte as far as I know).
I like the CIX control panel, although I've not seen the full functionality yet I do see options to adjust the appointment date/time, add notes for the engineer or such at the moment. They were helpful on the phone, resolving an slight hiccup with me not receiving my login when expected. Manual ordering form is a bit limited so you have to say what you want when you order for the first time, e.g. if you want a SIM2 code then you'll need to ask for that in the comments. However once you're signed up you can place orders automatically in future as well as requesting such things. For example, https://i.imgur.com/2R29Lfm.png (https://i.imgur.com/2R29Lfm.png). For my setup however I ended up not using a SIM2 code hence two lines at the moment :D.
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Thank you. I look forward to your future updates, as and when events take place. :)
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All's well that ends well, as the phrase goes :P.
(https://i.imgur.com/huwpNx9.png)
Frames activity completed today (AAISP), then shortly after that I had an email from AAISP informing me that the engineer appointment is no longer required :). I assume it's something like they found the pair that connect to the new house, cancelling the original necessity for an engineer appointment. Monday evening (5th) I'll have a spare modem and router at the new house plugged in and when it's live the following morning I'll get an email, as it now means I can be at the old (current) house in the morning for the removal company instead of someone else being here in my place.
Well, see you in about two weeks, hopefully good speeds and a less troublesome line which doesn't mean I have to moderately band/cap it. In the meantime more packing and organising to do :-\.
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All's well that ends well, as the phrase goes :P.
:thumbs:
Well, see you in about two weeks, hopefully good speeds and a less troublesome line which doesn't mean I have to moderately band/cap it. In the meantime more packing and organising to do :-\.
Will you be entrusting all your computing equipment and peripherals to "the shifters" or is that going in your own car?
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:thumbs:
Will you be entrusting all your computing equipment and peripherals to "the shifters" or is that going in your own car?
Haha, definitely me that will be handling any computer/networking equipment. I don't want to risk them breaking something that's quite expensive to replace. Accidents can happen, if I have an accident (though highly unlikely) then it's my own fault :).
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Just an update to say that while I don't know all the stats yet, hope to know later this morning, my new connection is still on fastpath. The Fritz!Box 7490 (temporarily being used) is syncing at 76150/20000 with a bit spare on the upstream.
I suspect if I use a broadcom and there's no 'R' (reed solomon coding) on the downstream, which Lantiq/Infineon chipsets always seem to apply, I could probably sync at the full 80000/20000.
I hope to try the Zyxel VMG1312-B10A later this morning, as well as switching the MK2 faceplate to a MK3. Errors are reasonably low, about 353 error seconds in the last almost 17 hours. I suspect this may be higher if I use a modem with a Broadcom chipset but we'll see. Line card version is 13.2.6, which I assume would be 0xb206 and not 0xd086 but I don't know for sure.
I'll post a further reply later with my Zyxel stats.
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Final update, Zyxel is now plugged in and assuming MDWS is still online (not sure when it closes) you should see my new connection on there at the new house. It's fairly similar to the old connection except the continuous downstream CRC errors fault/issue I had no longer exists. In the evening and perhaps at weekends I'm expecting more CRC errors compared to times when there's less people using their FTTC connections on the same route/cabinet, at least that's the pattern I generally notice on my connection when the Fritz!Box 7490 was being used.
R: 0 and fastpath, DLM didn't appear to do anything since the connection went live.
Line card version is also 0xd086 again, upstream UAS is interestingly low, unlike the other connection had a considerably higher upstream UAS (again 0xd086 and was told by the engineer I was put on a fairly new line card, if I recall correctly it was well into a few months worth of UAS).
Upstream UAS: 14204 seconds (which is approximately 3.94 hours)
I'm also currently above my estimated downstream sync rate of 76.1 Mbps :), maybe if I upgrade the SSFP from MK2 to MK3 I might see a further improvement.
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Final update, Zyxel is now plugged in and assuming MDWS is still online (not sure when it closes) you should see my new connection on there at the new house.
Monday 12th March 2018 . . . so your circuit will be the last that I monitor via MDWS.
Who is maker of the electronics is in the "fibre" cabinet? The reason for me asking is that I see a degree of "tail end droop" when viewing the Hlog plot. That hints it is likely to be an ECI Hi-FOCuS Mini-Shelf M41 MSAN.
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Monday 12th March 2018 . . . so your circuit will be the last that I monitor via MDWS.
Who is maker of the electronics is in the "fibre" cabinet? The reason for me asking is that I see a degree of "tail end droop" when viewing the Hlog plot. That hints it is likely to be an ECI Hi-FOCuS Mini-Shelf M41 MSAN.
Sadly still ECI :P.
EDIT: My script has kicked in and has reduced the banding on the downstream in an attempt to preserve fastpath (due to higher than expected ES in a 15 minute bin), in case someone wonders why my connection has re-synced just a moment ago.
[Fri 9 Mar 12:45:08 GMT 2018] Adjusting [DS sync rate banding] from [80000 Kbps] to [64800 Kbps] due to [downstream ES higher than threshold in a 15 minute bin], the line will now be re-synced