Kitz Forum

Broadband Related => FTTC and FTTP Issues => Topic started by: steenamaroo on February 13, 2018, 02:12:56 PM

Title: ISP Bridge Tap Claims
Post by: steenamaroo on February 13, 2018, 02:12:56 PM
Hi all,
New member here in UK, hoping someone might be able to offer some friendly advice.

I'm being given the runaround, I believe, by my ISP.
For two years straight (literally all day every day) I had 19,999+79,999 up and down respectively from one UK provider.
Since joining the other I've had max down link of around 70 but, every few months or so, my connection will repeatedly drop and link rate will get chipped away until it's at 40-50 down.

Each time the ISP has me run around unplugging faceplates, trying the master, trying filters, switching routers etc which, of course, tells their DLM to clamp down harder.
I appreciate there are troubleshooting procedures that need to be carried out but both times these actions only served to decrease sync and then the ISP shrugs and says "your line rate is within our predicted range".
The past two times I gave up out of frustration and speeds were magically restored after 4-6 weeks.

This time they've concluded, despite initially claiming no line faults, that I have a bridge tap somewhere.

Now, I have no household wiring at all - It was all ripped out during renovations years ago, so there's an A+B from the road going to a mk3 openreach faceplate fitted by an engineer, and on my side I have a phone and a router. That's literally it.

I suspect the ISP is just reading the next line of the 'please go away' handbook and, as having an engineer out to find no fault will cost me good money, I've refused to accept their diagnosis without some evidence. Of course none has been offered.

Anyway, to get to the question - Is it possible to speculate from my line stats whether there is a bridge tap somewhere on the network side?
There's been no noticeable change in these figures for months, or years even, (apart from downlink rate) and my fibre is to the cabinet approximately 200m away.
The 200m stretch is copper which, as I say, supported 79,999 for two years straight without so much as a hiccup. That changed the day I switched ISP.

I did recently have the router replaced as part of their troubleshooting and had a stable connection for 10 days immediately after - Dropouts had been daily/every two days prior to that.
Personally I think the router was giving up and this is just the DLM downward spiral again, but they clam up and either roadblock you with "we can't" or refuse to answer if you mention that. ;)

Many thanks in advance.

(http://steenaudio.com/shared/stats.png)
Title: Re: ISP Bridge Tap Claims
Post by: j0hn on February 13, 2018, 02:23:28 PM
What ISP are you with?

The downstream looks banded to me. The downstream snrm is 12.3dB when it should be 6dB.

What are the lines estimates? If it's below the estimates it should be fairly easy to get the ISP to send and engineer to perform a DLM reset.

What modem do you have? Some modems have access to much more detailed stats, though yours looks like an ISP modem with little chance of that.

Regarding the bridge tap, it doesn't need to be in your property. A bridge tap can be anywhere between you and the DSLAM. It's just prudent to rule out internal wiring 1st.
Title: Re: ISP Bridge Tap Claims
Post by: steenamaroo on February 13, 2018, 02:32:34 PM
Hi j0hn,
Thank you for the very quick reply.

My ISP is TalkTalk.

I've been told that initially my profile was allowing for maximum link rate, so any diminished speeds were not the result of DLM.
I was later told that my profile got changed on 21st to a maximum link rate of 55,000, and interleaving was set to low.
This coincides with the troubleshooting that was carried out.
I think my profile was reduced at least one more time since then, as my rate is now 41270.

I think my original line estimate with the previous provider was 60-80 and, as I say, I saw 79,999 for the duration of my two year contract with them.
I didn't pay much attention when changing providers as there's no reason for anything to change, right? <sigh>.
The bought service is the same - Up to 76, IIRC?

The modem/router is D-Link 3782 - TalkTalk firmware.

I understand that a tap could be outside the property, in fact it has to be in my case, but wondered if there was some way to support or rule out their claim from my stats?

I've asked for a DLM reset - They say an engineer has to come out to do that and that a fault has to be registered for an engineer to come out.
Looking through their support forum, my concern is that they'll send an engineer who will find no fault and charge me for the pleasure. It seems to happen a lot.

I believe my downstream SNR-M has always been around 12. Perhaps I'm wrong?
Would that support their claim?
Title: Re: ISP Bridge Tap Claims
Post by: tubaman on February 13, 2018, 02:56:02 PM
Definitely something odd going on there as those line stats, in terms of errors, look really good for nearly 4 days of uptime.

As @j0hn has said the DS SNRM should be near 6dB, which does suggest banding.

I'm pretty sure that D-link router uses a Mediatek chipset, which most on this forum would stay well away from due to poor performance  :yuck:
But even given that it should perform better on what, from simple stats, looks like a decent line.

I suspect that the only way to get a more definitive answer on the bridge tap question will be to get a modem that supports DSLstats.
Zyxel units are popular on here (for good reason), but there are other Broadcom based units out there too.
 :)
Title: Re: ISP Bridge Tap Claims
Post by: steenamaroo on February 13, 2018, 03:00:59 PM
Hi Tubaman,

I did notice that since the last reduction in speed to 41k, CRC errors have been very low.
It drew my eye because they were actually 0/0 for a few days.

They were never worryingly high before that but the difference caught my eye.

Does this all suggest merit to the ISP's actions and claims?
I'm only hesitant because their information is lacking and often contradictory, and the last two issues with them were drawn out and had no conclusion.
To be blunt, they appear to just guess.
I have had >70 sustained for 2-3 months at a time with them when things are good which also makes me wonder about the sudden realisation that there's a bridge tap.

Unfortunately I don't have access to another modem/router except for a BT homehub 5 and an old Sky BB job that I use to repeat wifi outside.
Title: Re: ISP Bridge Tap Claims
Post by: tubaman on February 13, 2018, 03:19:42 PM
Bridge taps don't just appear so it seems highly unlikely that one is the problem here.
If your previous router was faulty and causing lots of resyncs and/or errored seconds then you may have ended up with a banded line, and that can be very tricky to get removed.
Insist on a DLM reset as faulty hardware (especially as it was theirs!) should be a legitimate reason for requesting one?

IMHO Talk Talks current routers (D-Link 3782 and HG633) are pretty poor. The previous HG635 was quite decent but is only available second-hand now.
 :)
Title: Re: ISP Bridge Tap Claims
Post by: steenamaroo on February 13, 2018, 03:30:39 PM
Thank you very much. You've both been very helpful indeed.
This conversation would have taken about 6 weeks elsewhere. ;)
Title: Re: ISP Bridge Tap Claims
Post by: j0hn on February 13, 2018, 03:52:09 PM
There's a new system starting on 19th February where ISP's can request a DLM reset direct from OpenReach without the need for an engineer.
Most ISP's will request an engineer to be sent if the line is below the estimates. If it's below the downstream handback threshold shown on the BT Broadband Checker then you can leave the ISP without penalty.
A change of ISP would reset the DLM.
If I was below the downstream handback and the ISP refused to send an engineer, I'd be off elsewhere.

Between new customer offers and cashback from tcb/quidco you can save a small fortune switching, even from a budget ISP like Talktalk.

A Broadcom based modem with access to Hlog info would show if the line had a bridge tap. Do you have an old white OpenReach modem by any chance?

Can you post the VDSL estimates and downstream handback from here: https://www.btwholesale.com/includes/adsl/adsl.htm?s_cid=ws_furls_adslchecker
Use the full address checker.
Title: Re: ISP Bridge Tap Claims
Post by: Westie on February 13, 2018, 04:09:57 PM

I suspect that the only way to get a more definitive answer on the bridge tap question will be to get a modem that supports DSLstats.


I second that. And there are some very knowledgeable and helpful people on this forum who would be able to advise you, should you decide to go down that route.  ;D

A good place to start might be here. (http://forum.kitz.co.uk/index.php/board,5.0.html)
Title: Re: ISP Bridge Tap Claims
Post by: steenamaroo on February 13, 2018, 04:25:51 PM
Thank you all again.

I was not aware of the changes on 19th.
Now, wouldn't you think the ISP would mention that, especially when I've voiced my concerns to them them in the same way I did you?

I'm afraid I don't have an old OpenReach modem.
When I first had fibre installed it was just the mk3 faceplate and HH5.

I've attached my stats from the BT checker.

My original 'plan' was to wait it out and see if speeds return as before, then give the ISP hell over it.
Now I think I'll request a DLM reset on 19th and take it from there.
Thank you for that information!

(http://www.steenaudio.com/shared/btstats.png)
Title: Re: ISP Bridge Tap Claims
Post by: re0 on February 14, 2018, 09:20:02 AM
Just out of interest, what type is the Home Hub 5 that you have there? If it is a type B then, as opposed to the type A which has a Lantiq SoC, it will have a Broadcom chipset which is known for it's stability. If it is indeed a type B and you used that on the BT connection you had before without issue, then it is quite likely to be the router hardware supplied by TalkTalk giving you a bad time.

I can see you've mentioned that you have a D-Link 3782 (which sports a MediaTek MT7511T SoC). I would be a bit cautious about putting a modem with a MediaTek SoC (or even Lantiq for that matter) on my own line just so I do not upset the DLM. Any time I have veered away from Broadcom I have had endless issues on both ADSL and VDSL for errors, disconnects and the DLM taking measures to stabilise the line. Your mileage may vary, of course.
Title: Re: ISP Bridge Tap Claims
Post by: tubaman on February 14, 2018, 11:38:16 AM
Agree with @re0.
I would say even a Home Hub 5A (Lantiq) would be preferable to the D-Link, but I'm pretty sure you won't be able to use one on a TalkTalk circuit as it is locked to a BT username and password. :no:
If you don't mind used then there's loads of good kit available on Ebay, and if you a patient there are real bargains to be had.

My main concern is that the line is now banded. DLM may eventually lift this if you have a period of good stats (and the D-Link appears to be behaving in that respect), but if it's stubborn a DLM reset may be the only answer.
 :)
Title: Re: ISP Bridge Tap Claims
Post by: steenamaroo on February 14, 2018, 01:06:14 PM
Hi re0 + tubaman,
It is, indeed, a type B but the Bt user+pass are coded into the firmware, as far as I know.
I'd be up for modding that but it doesn't seem like it's been done. If anyone knows better, please let me know. :)

It looks like TalkTalk offer HG635 with broadcom chipset, and DSLstats "with some fiddling". Do you think it would be worth requesting one from them?
I'm reluctant to spend money - If anything, I want to extract some back.

If the 635 is useless


I'll keep an eye on ebay. If the game is rigged there's no point playing with their ball.

Edited:incorrect information.
Title: Re: ISP Bridge Tap Claims
Post by: steenamaroo on February 14, 2018, 01:14:17 PM
Oh, also.....Interesting development today!
Our electricity provider notified us of a temporary outage today which would have reset the router.
Downlink is up ever so slightly, but this is the first time I've ever seen uplink at anything other than 19,999...ever.

(http://www.steenaudio.com/shared/stats14th.png)
Title: Re: ISP Bridge Tap Claims
Post by: tubaman on February 14, 2018, 03:03:17 PM
Hmm, the fact that the DS has connected at a slightly different rate to before suggests that maybe our banding theory is wrong.
It's that 12dB SNRM together with a low line rate that's really rather strange. ???
I'd be very tempted to get hold of a Broadcom based modem that allows proper stats access so we can get a better idea about what's going on.
 :)
Title: Re: ISP Bridge Tap Claims
Post by: steenamaroo on February 14, 2018, 04:48:11 PM
Understood. I'll ask around - Perhaps I can borrow one.
Do you know, can I flash other firmware to the HH5. It's sitting here doing nothing...

Thanks once again for the assistance, everyone.
Title: Re: ISP Bridge Tap Claims
Post by: re0 on February 14, 2018, 05:27:13 PM
. . . I would say even a Home Hub 5A (Lantiq) would be preferable to the D-Link . . .
Your mileage may vary with a Lantiq chipset. I know the other line here on FTTC (VDSL, with an attenuation of 9.4 dB) was syncing near full 80/20 on a Broadcom chipset using the Billion 8800NL. However, switching the to the Plusnet Hub One (which is a modified HH5A) caused a lot of disconnections (as the SNR dropped into the minus figures very often), hightened error rates (I do not remember exactly, but it was enough to bring browsing and downloads to a standstill) and even a replacement exhibited the same behaviour. This caused the speeds to drop to under 67 Mbps (I think) and it took a very long time to recover to roughly the same speed as before.

Previously, on ADSL, I had the TD-W8970 (v1 I believe, which has a Lantiq XWAY VRX268) for a period of time and it was just so damn unstable with the same symptoms as mentioned above. I admit, it was a fairly attentuated line at 42 dB. But the Broadcom-based Technicolor 582n and Billion 8800NL could happily hold sync at around 7700 Kbps downstream at 6db, even with fastpath.

. . . but I'm pretty sure you won't be able to use one on a TalkTalk circuit as it is locked to a BT username and password.

Oops, I should have mentioned that it was locked down for clarity sake. As far as I know, Home Hubs will work on Plusnet and BT connections only.

Do you know, can I flash other firmware to the HH5. It's sitting here doing nothing...

I am not sure about the HH5B. I know it is possible to flash the HH5A with OpenWRT, but you would need the Type A variant, confidence in your soldering and understanding of serial. ;)
Title: Re: ISP Bridge Tap Claims
Post by: tubaman on February 15, 2018, 10:28:20 AM
As you say @re0 'mileage may vary'.
On my circa 850m line I find that Lantiq (VRX-268 I believe, in both a HH5A and a TP-Link TD-W9980 that I have tried) syncs a few Mbps slower than Broadcom but is still perfectly stable and with acceptable errors.
The only MediaTek I've tried (in a D-Link DSL3882) was very bad for ES and I didn't leave it on the line for long for fear of the wrath of DLM.

The way I would summarise it is that Broadcom based modems seem to behave well on the vast majority of lines, whereas Lantiq and MediaTek (especially) are far more variable in their performance.
 :)
Title: Re: ISP Bridge Tap Claims
Post by: re0 on February 15, 2018, 11:49:58 AM
@tubaman

Actually, now that I come to think about it, it may have been before G.INP was enabled on my line when I had trouble with Lantiq-based PN Hub One. Even still, the point is here that Broadcom did a much better job prior to G.INP being enabled, and Broadcom did not cause me weeks of disconnects and slow speed. >:(
Title: Re: ISP Bridge Tap Claims
Post by: steenamaroo on February 15, 2018, 05:40:26 PM
Technicolor 582n seems very affordable used although I'm concerned about the 10/100 lan for file transfer within my network.

Also considering an HG612 in conjunction with my existing router or the HH5.
I know these are getting old but seem to have a reputation for being stable,
and I've never had any problem with wifi to warrant an upgrade there.

If I understand correctly the 10/100 between modem and router would only bottleneck (but actually wouldn't) the internet connection, while lan machines on the network would communicate with eachother @1000 via the router?

Have I got this right, and do those seems like decent options?
Title: Re: ISP Bridge Tap Claims
Post by: burakkucat on February 15, 2018, 06:24:36 PM
If I understand correctly the 10/100 between modem and router would only bottleneck (but actually wouldn't) the internet connection, while lan machines on the network would communicate with eachother @1000 via the router?

Yes, quite correct.
Title: Re: ISP Bridge Tap Claims
Post by: ejs on February 15, 2018, 07:40:41 PM
I'm not sure what you are planning to do with the Technicolor 582n, but its modem is ADSL only, you would need to use it with a HG612 or some other separate VDSL2 modem for FTTC.
Title: Re: ISP Bridge Tap Claims
Post by: steenamaroo on February 15, 2018, 07:47:41 PM
Oh, that's my bad. Thank you ejs.
Sounds like 612 in conjunction with one my my existing routers is a solid enough plan.
Title: Re: ISP Bridge Tap Claims
Post by: andyfitter on February 15, 2018, 07:52:00 PM
I've got a 612 Flashed with the correct firmware etc going spare, it's posted in the swap shop section if you're interested. £15 all in.
Title: Re: ISP Bridge Tap Claims
Post by: tubaman on February 15, 2018, 07:55:43 PM
Technicolor 589vac (V1 or V2) is Broadcom based and there are plenty available at good prices.
I don't know if they work with DSL Stats, but they do have far better line stats available than your current box.
Worth a punt if you just want something cheap to see if it helps.

Zyxel units are the most popular on here, and are DSL Stats compatible, but they usually cost a bit more.
 :)
Title: Re: ISP Bridge Tap Claims
Post by: steenamaroo on February 16, 2018, 02:36:26 PM
Just updating.
TalkTalk claim to have changed my DLM policy at my request although, surprise surprise, they didn't happen to mention what to/from, so I've asked for clarification.

Anyway, the hope is that they'll set me to speed policy and reset DLM completely, by which time I'll have a 589vac to test.
I snagged one for £13 on the bay.

Thank you for the offer of a 612, Andy!

I'll let you fellas know how I get on.
Once again, your help is much appreciated. :)
Title: Re: ISP Bridge Tap Claims
Post by: re0 on February 16, 2018, 02:50:36 PM
I would be surprised if they set the DLM profile to anything other than Standard. Hopefully they will be able to clarify what to, or perhaps they will probably end up saying they haven't done it and it's not possible for them to do it :lol: ... would be typical of TT ::). But either way, we can hope that the DLM reset will allow you to attain your line's full potential once you have your new router! :fingers:

Keep us posted.
Title: Re: ISP Bridge Tap Claims
Post by: steenamaroo on February 16, 2018, 03:48:40 PM
They said the network team had done it. Personally I'd be surprised if the network team exists! :p
Anyway, here's hoping.
Title: Re: ISP Bridge Tap Claims
Post by: steenamaroo on February 19, 2018, 04:00:31 PM
Hey fellas,
TalkTalk are adamant that they have now set me to speed policy rather than stable.

I had assumed that changing profile and resetting DLM were going to be two different things,
but am now being told that they're one in the same.

I've come here for a plain english answer in fewer than 300 posts. ;)
Would changing my policy to speed reset any previous caps/banding/limitations place on the line by DLM?
Title: Re: ISP Bridge Tap Claims
Post by: RealAleMadrid on February 19, 2018, 04:19:35 PM
It certainly isn't a DLM reset so I would say probably not. :)
Title: Re: ISP Bridge Tap Claims
Post by: steenamaroo on February 19, 2018, 04:34:51 PM
Thank you for the fast reply, RealAleMadrid,

It's unbelievable how obtuse and evasive these people are.
Title: Re: ISP Bridge Tap Claims
Post by: j0hn on February 19, 2018, 04:52:37 PM
Changing the DLM profile from Standard to Speed will result in a DLM reset of some sort.
It would certainly cause DLM to resync the line.

I've never known Talktalk to change a customers DLM profile when asked. I believe ALL Talktalk customers are on the Standard profile.
Title: Re: ISP Bridge Tap Claims
Post by: RealAleMadrid on February 19, 2018, 04:58:37 PM
I wouldn't call a line resync any sort of DLM reset. :P
Title: Re: ISP Bridge Tap Claims
Post by: steenamaroo on February 19, 2018, 05:23:45 PM
OK, thanks fellas.
I've asked them to copy and paste line details as they did before.

I'm sure they'll find some way to copy and paste ambiguously.  :lol:
Title: Re: ISP Bridge Tap Claims
Post by: steenamaroo on February 21, 2018, 01:45:57 PM
As you chaps called, they haven't reset anything.
I'm attaching a transcript here, if anyone fancies a giggle.

I genuinely can't decide if these people have no clue, or if they're deliberately being obtuse.
Either way, I'll let them know I intend to pursue a formal complaint with regard to customer service; Never mind actual service.
The last time I got to this stage, my line magically fixed itself within about 24 hours.

www.steenaudio.com/shared/TT.doc (http://www.steenaudio.com/shared/TT.doc) - Brown text is me.


I should also say that my nice new router tells me that interleaving is off and the delay on the line is 0,
so either someone is tinkering of their info is not accurate.
The router did previously report interleaving as being on so I'm fairly confident it's telling the truth.
Title: Re: ISP Bridge Tap Claims
Post by: re0 on February 21, 2018, 10:15:53 PM
Typical for a lot of consumer broadband services these days and their 1st line support, but the reputation for TalkTalk's support on their forum is certainly at the bottom and I do not know if I can even classify a lot of their responses as being 0.5 line support, let alone 1st. ;) I know the forum used to have some uses back in the days when ADSL2+ was generally the best people could get, and people on their LLU connections (I don't think it was ever applicable to BTW on TT) could request profile changes to adjust their interleaving and SNR, and setting it static so the DLM would not kick in.

Just out of interest, how are your line stats looking now with this new router?
Title: Re: ISP Bridge Tap Claims
Post by: steenamaroo on February 21, 2018, 11:05:29 PM
Yes, I've had a browse through their forums and it does seem like there was a glimmer of support where ADSL2 was concerned.
Shame that's gone in favour of reading from a script until DLM removes any possibility of proving anything.


The new router seems great.
It was 02 branded so I flashed the stock 15.4 firmware the disabled config encryption over SSH.
Not sure there's anything I need in there, but throwing it out there.

No telnet, it seems. I was surprised at that because I read a thread here where someone was having trouble, then succeeded in, working out his telnet password.
No matter.

It's been live for 17 hours at 20/50 with interleaving off and g.inp on.
I'm seeing
Output Power up/down - 13.5 and 5.8
Noise Margin up/down - 16.1 and 17.2
Attenuation is reporting 0 - Bug I guess.


Stats are showing
Up FEC - 197
Down FEC - 747
Down CRC -2
Down ES -1.


Everything else is zero. (ses/uas/los/lof/lom)
Title: Re: ISP Bridge Tap Claims
Post by: tubaman on February 22, 2018, 08:02:28 AM
I'm pretty sure I could telnet into my 589vac when I had it.
Have you logged into the GUI using the 'engineer' user . The password will be the 'access key' on the base sticker.
There are extra settings in there and I think telnet enable is one of them.
 :)

Edit - it was SSH, not telnet that I used (http://forum.kitz.co.uk/index.php/topic,19523.msg344530.html#msg344530 (http://forum.kitz.co.uk/index.php/topic,19523.msg344530.html#msg344530)). Looks like I used the user 'tech' (password as above).
You'd think I'd remember as I wrote a post about it :-[
Title: Re: ISP Bridge Tap Claims
Post by: re0 on February 22, 2018, 11:07:33 AM
@steenamaroo, the stats are looking a lot better already especially considering the FECs are much lower (I imagine that the G.INP is helping). Perhaps you could post some full stats from SSH? :cool:

I am pretty sure @tubaman could correct me if I am wrong since he has owned the router before, but if you download something like Putty and login over port 22 with the router's IP address and use @tubaman's instructions (in ref. to username and password) then you should be able to use the command "sh" for the shell, then "adsl info --stats" to pull up your full stats.

If you run your computer 24/7 or if you have a spare system then you could collect stats on it and have them uploaded to MDWS (My DSL Web Stats, https://www.mydslwebstats.co.uk/ (https://www.mydslwebstats.co.uk/)) on a regular basis for graphing as this will make it a lot easier for yourself to monitor and for us to help. Since the 589vac does not have Telnet access then you won't be able to use something like DSLStats (http://dslstats.me.uk (http://dslstats.me.uk)) (as it requires Telnet). However, if the router has CLI will full access to the required DSL commands then HG612 Modem Stats (http://www.kitz.co.uk/routers/hg612stats.htm (http://www.kitz.co.uk/routers/hg612stats.htm)) should work fine.
Title: Re: ISP Bridge Tap Claims
Post by: steenamaroo on February 22, 2018, 12:45:08 PM
Thank you both for the very helpful information.
I will get on this and see what I can record.

Heh, I don't know if you read the txt document attached but the OCE who was being so evasive replied today and said
"We did not reset DLM, this can only be done by a BT Openreach engineer.
We changed the DLM policy to see if the speed would increase, this is not the same as a DLM reset."


Unbelievable.

Title: Re: ISP Bridge Tap Claims
Post by: tubaman on February 22, 2018, 02:11:01 PM
I think the command you'll need is xdslctl info --stats
 :)
Title: Re: ISP Bridge Tap Claims
Post by: steenamaroo on February 22, 2018, 02:17:04 PM
Indeed it is, thank you.
Unfortunately I tried the broadcom DslDiag and it crashed causing the router to reboot,
but I'll allow a day of uptime then return with full stats from xdslctl.
Title: Re: ISP Bridge Tap Claims
Post by: re0 on February 22, 2018, 05:01:58 PM
@tubaman, on some modems it's interchangable with "adsl", etc. so thanks for clarifying that it's "xdslctl" on this modem in specific.

I just wanted to make a correction to my earlier post and that is to state that HG612 Modem Stats, contrary to what I had implied earlier with it working with SSH, will not work with SSH and will require Telnet access for stats collection. Sorry for any confusion caused in reference to this.
Title: Re: ISP Bridge Tap Claims
Post by: tubaman on February 22, 2018, 06:21:59 PM
@re0 - Sorry, I didn't intend to suggest that you were wrong. As you say some modems use "adsl". I don't know if the TG589vac will accept it as I never tried.
 :)
Title: Re: ISP Bridge Tap Claims
Post by: re0 on February 22, 2018, 07:06:14 PM
@tubaman - I thought you said it to imply "adsl" doesn't work. I just went along with what you said as you own the router so you know which commands are possible so I was just awaiting a correction if necessary. :) It should work anyway.
Title: Re: ISP Bridge Tap Claims
Post by: steenamaroo on February 22, 2018, 07:08:24 PM
What a pleasant bunch you are! ;)
For future readers, TG589vac V1 wanted 'xdslctl info --parameter', with credentials of 'tech' and the printed access key.

Just reading back, I'm reminded that J0hn asked for Hlog, to be able to conclusively determine if there is/isn't a bridge tap.
I'm sorry I can't present it in graph form.
Title: Re: ISP Bridge Tap Claims
Post by: steenamaroo on February 22, 2018, 07:12:49 PM
At a glance it seems like a pretty even pattern, but with nulls at
0-7
33-39
860-871
1206-1215
1962-1975
2783-2799
3971 onwards

This means nothing to me (oh, Vienna)
Title: Re: ISP Bridge Tap Claims
Post by: re0 on February 22, 2018, 07:41:13 PM
Those gaps are gaps in the bands. :) Nothing to worry about there.

I do not know what j0hn would say about this, but to me it looks very consistent.
Title: Re: ISP Bridge Tap Claims
Post by: steenamaroo on February 22, 2018, 08:52:10 PM
It certainly doesn't seem like there's a series of dips but, like you, keen to know what j0hn says.
Should I be concerned that attenuation is reported as 14?
It was 8 with the previous router but I should say, I could almost spit on the cabinet.
It's less than 200m away on a main road; Last house - Straight line.
Title: Re: ISP Bridge Tap Claims
Post by: re0 on February 22, 2018, 09:47:16 PM
I was going to mention that the Hlog does not seem match the attenuation I had seen previously on your old modem. But it is worth noting that modems sometimes have a small margin of difference when reporting the attenuation and some don't even report a figure at all (or at least not in the browser interface, but in the CLI they may). Since I have never owned a D-Link 3782, I cannot comment on what the general differences are between it and other modems when it comes to reporting the attenuation. I did a calculation for your first downstream band's Hlog and I got -10.51, so perhaps the D-Link only calculates the attenuation for the first band that it reports in the interface (which was 8.2 dB in an earlier screenshot)?

Just out of curiosity, what does "adsl info --pbParams" give you?

Regardless, your line appears to be very healthy and you should be able to attain the full 80/20. You should not be concerned by the attenuation being reported as 14 dB unless it impacts your broadband performance.

Don't spit on the cabinet, otherwise the DLM will curse your line eternally. >:D
Title: Re: ISP Bridge Tap Claims
Post by: steenamaroo on February 22, 2018, 09:52:43 PM
Anything I read suggested I should be looking at something like 3db attenuation but I don't know what I'm talking about, so I'll take your word for it. ;)

Formatting of pbParams is being a nightmare, so I'm attaching an image.
If you'd prefer txt let me know.

Title: Re: ISP Bridge Tap Claims
Post by: burakkucat on February 22, 2018, 10:04:03 PM
If you are able to execute as many of the following commands as possible, sequentially, and dump the raw output into one log file (don't attempt to format it) I might be able to produce the usual four "snapshot" plots. (Bit loading per sub-carrier, Hlog per sub-carrier, QLN per sub-carrier and SNR per sub-carrier.)

Code: [Select]
xdslctl info --state
xdslctl info --show
xdslctl info --stats
xdslctl info --SNR
xdslctl info --QLN
xdslctl info --Hlog
xdslctl info --Hlin
xdslctl info --HlinS
xdslctl info --Bits
xdslctl info --pbParams
xdslctl info --linediag
xdslctl info --linediag1
xdslctl info --vendor
xdslctl info --cfg
xdslctl info --webstats
xdslctl info --vectoring
xdslctl profile --show
xdslctl --version
Title: Re: ISP Bridge Tap Claims
Post by: steenamaroo on February 22, 2018, 10:12:52 PM
At this risk of repeating myself, thank you all so much for taking the time!

The file is too large to attach, but this link is direct and on my own webserver.
www.steenaudio.com/shared/AllInfo.txt (http://www.steenaudio.com/shared/AllInfo.txt)

The only command that didn't exist was --webstats
Title: Re: ISP Bridge Tap Claims
Post by: burakkucat on February 22, 2018, 10:57:02 PM
I have downloaded the raw data file and, after a minor manual munge, it has produced a nice set of plots.  :)

Here is a list of the files I now have, ready to send to you --

anf-20180222-2212.txt
Bits-20180222-2212.png
cele-20180222-2212.txt
Hlog-20180222-2212.png
line_stats-L-20180222-2212.png
line_stats-P-20180222-2212.png
pbParams-20180222-2212.png
profile-20180222-2212.png
QLN-20180222-2212.png
Snapshot_Log-20180222-2212.txt
SNR-20180222-2212.png


I could send a ZIP format file, via e-mail, to your registered address . . . if that is appropriate. Please let me know; if an ack then a post here would be sufficient; if a nack then send me a PM with an appropriate e-mail address.  ;)
Title: Re: ISP Bridge Tap Claims
Post by: steenamaroo on February 22, 2018, 11:08:45 PM
Oh, fantastic!
Yes, registered email address is absolutely fine.
Title: Re: ISP Bridge Tap Claims
Post by: burakkucat on February 22, 2018, 11:14:53 PM
An e-mail message is on its way to you.
Title: Re: ISP Bridge Tap Claims
Post by: steenamaroo on February 23, 2018, 12:16:13 AM
Many thanks, burakkucat.
I've hosted the zip at http://steenaudio.com/shared/stats.zip (http://steenaudio.com/shared/stats.zip) for anyone who'd like to take a look.

From the assessments so far it sounds like I really don't have a problem which is great to know.
Even if continue to refuse to request a reset, I'm a little more confident that DLM should eventually step back of its own accord now.
Title: Re: ISP Bridge Tap Claims
Post by: burakkucat on February 23, 2018, 12:29:12 AM
Many thanks, burakkucat.

You are welcome.  :)

I will always first look at the QLN and Hlog plots for a circuit, as they give a good indication the condition of the physical infrastructure. In your case, nothing untoward can be seen.
Title: Re: ISP Bridge Tap Claims
Post by: burakkucat on February 23, 2018, 01:33:06 AM
Having now examined the Hlog plot, I can categorically say that there is not a bridge tap present on your circuit. You are welcome to tell your ISP that fact and, if necessary, refer them to me.  :D
Title: Re: ISP Bridge Tap Claims
Post by: tubaman on February 23, 2018, 09:06:23 AM
Hmm - Max Attainable of 91228kbps - I think you need to get that DLM reset as you can easily get loads more speed from that line.
 :)
Title: Re: ISP Bridge Tap Claims
Post by: re0 on February 23, 2018, 10:30:08 AM
@tubaman - One could only hope with TalkTalk... Expecting results for their consumer products, as steenamroo has experienced, is a lost cause. ::)

@steenamaroo, I do actually have a suggestion for you...

If you're still in contract (which it seems you will be because you switched recently) with TalkTalk, you should request Minimum Guaranteed Access Line Speed (MGALS) from them. The MGALS should specify the 10th percentile speed for similar customers on the same service, at which point they must act to resolve this problem by raising it as fault or let you leave contract free if they have raised it to OR and they have found no fault and the line is at its max capability.

You have done your part, as a customer, by replacing their awful kit, changing filters, etc. Your line is clean and certainly capable of the full speeds as you have previously experienced. There's nothing really more that an ISP could expect you to do.

ISPs should be able to do a remote DLM reset (limited to 1000 circuits a day), though I do not know if TalkTalk have access to or use this yet. I would even consider calling their faults department and state that your line is underperforming because of a "fault" with their own TalkTalk router hardware and that you need them to reset the circuit's DLM after replacing it. As horrible as calling them sounds, you need to try a different avenue because the OCE's on the forum are not giving you straight answers or even providing real support in my opinion.
Title: Re: ISP Bridge Tap Claims
Post by: steenamaroo on February 23, 2018, 01:30:44 PM
Thank you for the suggestion, re0,
As much as the idea pains may, you may be right.

I do feel I can construct a strong complaint about the customer service here, or follow your approach, but I'm even wondering if it's worth it now.
If I leave well alone it seem there's a good chance speeds will return eventually, and it's less likely I'll be penalised in future, now that I have reasonable hardware.

Do you know, would MGALS be any different to the minimum figure I was quoted on sign up?
Unfortunately on sign up I was told to expect 55-75 with a minimum guarantee of 35.
I'm rounding from memory there, but it was certainly in that area.

Having been educated a little about the hardware, maybe it's best that I leave well alone?
Title: Re: ISP Bridge Tap Claims
Post by: steenamaroo on February 23, 2018, 04:50:30 PM
ISPs should be able to do a remote DLM reset (limited to 1000 circuits a day), though I do not know if TalkTalk have access to or use this yet.

This is a fair point too.
I mean they could simply tell me but, of course, they won't.
Title: Re: ISP Bridge Tap Claims
Post by: re0 on February 23, 2018, 05:36:23 PM
Do you know, would MGALS be any different to the minimum figure I was quoted on sign up?

I cannot comment on whether the quoted minimum figure TalkTalk give you is based on MGALS, but it would probably be as a safe bet to cover themselves.

If you have any emails from them, it should state the conditions of when you signed up and what speeds they expect/guarantee minimum for you. If you have not retained that, then perhaps you will need to ask regarding the MGALS.

The chances are that the DLM will steadily improve the line parameters without a DLM reset, providing there is no fault (which I believe is the case). Unfortunately, the process can be slow and it will only occur if the line is performing within thresholds defined for its profile.

What are your errors looking like at the moment? Use "adsl info --stats" and copy the "Since link time" stats so we can estimate the error rate at the moment. :)
Title: Re: ISP Bridge Tap Claims
Post by: steenamaroo on February 23, 2018, 05:43:43 PM
I do still have the email from when I signed up.
I didn't realise that at the start of this thread but I found it last night. That's where they quoted the minimum as 35 or thereabouts.

I just went to check error stats only to find out that my link reset about two hours ago.
I'm aware of no reason that it should have, so that's very annoying.

It's showing 155 FEC up and 106 FEC down for the previous day - Everything else is zero.

Over the last 2:40 it's showing
-----------down--------up
FEC:      4      5
CRC:      0      4
ES:      0      4
Title: Re: ISP Bridge Tap Claims
Post by: re0 on February 23, 2018, 05:55:18 PM
Hmm, too bad there is no way that I know of to enable Telnet on your device. :( It would make logging and looking into your problem so much easier.

Perhaps you could provide your full stats from the CLI and paste them here (and use "Insert Code" formatting to put into its own box)? You may not be seeing many CRCs/ES/SES because of the application of interleaving or G.INP.
Title: Re: ISP Bridge Tap Claims
Post by: steenamaroo on February 23, 2018, 06:01:21 PM
Sure, I can do that. :)
I believe interleaving is disabled but G.Inp is enabled.

Code: [Select]
xdslctl: ADSL driver and PHY status
Status: Showtime
Last Retrain Reason: 1
Last initialization procedure status: 0
Max: Upstream rate = 32786 Kbps, Downstream rate = 90929 Kbps
Bearer: 0, Upstream rate = 19999 Kbps, Downstream rate = 48997 Kbps
Bearer: 1, Upstream rate = 0 Kbps, Downstream rate = 0 Kbps
Link Power State: L0
Mode: VDSL2 Annex B
VDSL2 Profile: Profile 17a
TPS-TC: PTM Mode(0x0)
Trellis: U:ON /D:ON
Line Status: No Defect
Training Status: Showtime
Down Up
SNR (dB): 17.3 15.2
Attn(dB): 14.4 0.0
Pwr(dBm): 13.5 5.7

VDSL2 framing
Bearer 0
MSGc: -6 26
B: 195 237
M: 1 1
T: 0 42
R: 12 16
S: 0.0000 0.3781
L: 13117 5374
D: 4 1
I: 208 127
N: 208 254
Q: 4 0
V: 2 0
RxQueue: 136 0
TxQueue: 34 0
G.INP Framing: 18 0
G.INP lookback: 31 0
RRC bits: 0 24
Bearer 1
MSGc: 122 -6
B: 0 0
M: 2 0
T: 2 0
R: 16 0
S: 8.0000 0.0000
L: 32 0
D: 1 0
I: 32 0
N: 32 0
Q: 0 0
V: 0 0
RxQueue: 0 0
TxQueue: 0 0
G.INP Framing: 0 0
G.INP lookback: 0 0
RRC bits: 0 0

Counters
Bearer 0
OHF: 0 2427716
OHFErr: 0 4
RS: 302590064 3134782
RSCorr: 4 5
RSUnCorr: 0 0
Bearer 1
OHF: 599844 0
OHFErr: 0 0
RS: 4798256 0
RSCorr: 4 0
RSUnCorr: 0 0

Retransmit Counters
rtx_tx: 31616 121
rtx_c: 156 3602
rtx_uc: 72197 135404

G.INP Counters
LEFTRS: 10 31
minEFTR: 48986 19997
errFreeBits: 159227216 426790084

Bearer 0
HEC: 0 0
OCD: 0 0
LCD: 0 0
Total Cells: 907864209 0
Data Cells: 21731760 0
Drop Cells: 0
Bit Errors: 0 0

Bearer 1
HEC: 0 0
OCD: 0 0
LCD: 0 0
Total Cells: 0 0
Data Cells: 0 0
Drop Cells: 0
Bit Errors: 0 0

ES: 10 4
SES: 10 0
UAS: 71 61
AS: 9636

Bearer 0
INP: 51.00 0.00
INPRein: 1.00 0.00
delay: 0 0
PER: 0.00 3.98
OR: 0.01 64.22
AgR: 49248.62 20063.54

Bearer 1
INP: 2.00 0.00
INPRein: 2.00 0.00
delay: 0 0
PER: 16.06 0.01
OR: 63.75 0.01
AgR: 63.75 0.01

Bitswap: 2/2 0/0

Total time = 1 days 3 hours 32 min 5 sec
FEC: 210 160
CRC: 538 4
ES: 10 4
SES: 10 0
UAS: 71 61
LOS: 1 0
LOF: 7 0
LOM: 0 0
Retr: 2
Latest 15 minutes time = 2 min 5 sec
FEC: 0 0
CRC: 0 0
ES: 0 0
SES: 0 0
UAS: 0 0
LOS: 0 0
LOF: 0 0
LOM: 0 0
Retr: 0
Previous 15 minutes time = 15 min 0 sec
FEC: 0 0
CRC: 0 2
ES: 0 2
SES: 0 0
UAS: 0 0
LOS: 0 0
LOF: 0 0
LOM: 0 0
Retr: N/A
Latest 1 day time = 3 hours 32 min 5 sec
FEC: 104 5
CRC: 538 4
ES: 10 4
SES: 10 0
UAS: 28 18
LOS: 1 0
LOF: 7 0
LOM: 0 0
Retr: 1
Previous 1 day time = 24 hours 0 sec
FEC: 106 155
CRC: 0 0
ES: 0 0
SES: 0 0
UAS: 43 43
LOS: 0 0
LOF: 0 0
LOM: 0 0
Retr: 1
Since Link time = 2 hours 40 min 35 sec
FEC: 4 5
CRC: 0 4
ES: 0 4
SES: 0 0
UAS: 0 0
LOS: 0 0
LOF: 0 0
LOM: 0 0
Retr: 0
NTR: mipsCntAtNtr=0 ncoCntAtNtr=0
Title: Re: ISP Bridge Tap Claims
Post by: burakkucat on February 23, 2018, 11:51:39 PM
Last Retrain Reason:   1

That is what has been recorded as the reason for this morning's re-train . . .

Now where are those posts, the ones with the list of codes? Ah, yes. Here's one by asbokid (http://forum.kitz.co.uk/index.php/topic,11349.msg220024.html#msg220024) and one by roseway (http://forum.kitz.co.uk/index.php/topic,12504.msg236038.html#msg236038).  :)
Title: Re: ISP Bridge Tap Claims
Post by: steenamaroo on February 24, 2018, 01:08:20 AM
Heh, thank you burakkucat.
I had been there before you. ;)
There seemed to be mixed reports about reason:1.

I admit, I didn't look much deeper after seeing this post.
btw retrain reason 1 isnt always DLM as my last resync was a manual one by me powering down.  (Not relevant to this topic, but I just happened to spot it during that cmd and recall you talking about this recently with someone else).
Title: Re: ISP Bridge Tap Claims
Post by: steenamaroo on February 28, 2018, 03:14:18 PM
Looks like DLM took a nosey last night after just over 4 days up time.
I'm not entirely sure what it did but I've attached --stats before and after.
Title: Re: ISP Bridge Tap Claims
Post by: re0 on February 28, 2018, 03:30:16 PM
Hmm, looks like G.INP was deactivated on the upstream which would explain the drop in attainable on the upstream. I didn't even know that OR still had upstream G.INP enabled (on Huawei cabinets, of course). :hmm:

Skimming through, I cannot see anything untoward or otherwise worth of a mention (bar the above). Though the formatting of the document is not making it easy for me. :(
Title: Re: ISP Bridge Tap Claims
Post by: j0hn on February 28, 2018, 03:44:07 PM
Quote
I didn't even know that OR still had upstream G.INP enabled (on Huawei cabinets, of course)

It's disabled by default on the upstream.
However if the upstream has a high amount of ES, and the modem is recognised as capable of upstream retransmission, then DLM will apply it.

If the upstream remains "noisy" then it will keep G.INP.
However for most lines DLM removes it after a few days.

I've only had G.INP on the upstream once, for a few days. My line very much benefited from it. It's unfortunate G.INP Mk2 is such a fudge.
Title: Re: ISP Bridge Tap Claims
Post by: steenamaroo on February 28, 2018, 03:45:50 PM
So this would be considered a good thing; The first step?

Title: Re: ISP Bridge Tap Claims
Post by: steenamaroo on March 04, 2018, 04:13:08 PM
Well folks,
I'm very happy to report that my line reset this morning at 19,999 and 79,999.
info --stats shows Retrain reason 1 and SNR down 7.9. :)

I had to reboot the router to actually see that throughput but now that I have everything looks great.

This follows a PM on Thursday, where I asked one of the OCEs to find about whether or not TalkTalk can avail of the recent OpenReach DLM reset changes .
He said he'd ask the network team.

Being that the reset took place at 9/10 am, I guess those guys work Sundays?

Thank you once again to everyone who helped on this thread.
It's very much appreciated!
Title: Re: ISP Bridge Tap Claims
Post by: j0hn on March 04, 2018, 05:00:16 PM
So Talktalk are doing remote DLM resets, great to know.

There's a couple members of this forum who will likely attempt this with Talktalk now.
Title: Re: ISP Bridge Tap Claims
Post by: steenamaroo on March 04, 2018, 06:12:42 PM
It seems that way.
All you have to do is ask, try to figure out the magic combination of words that can't be twisted for about eight weeks or so, then BAM. Reset.

Couldn't be easier. ;)
Title: Re: ISP Bridge Tap Claims
Post by: steenamaroo on March 30, 2018, 12:16:55 AM
Just following up - I've been connected for 20 days and 20 hours at 79.99/19.99.
MTBE is steady at around 1290 or so.

Looks like a happy ending, thanks to all the great advice here. :)
Title: Re: ISP Bridge Tap Claims
Post by: burakkucat on March 30, 2018, 12:46:21 AM
I'm pleased to read that your circuit is not misbehaving and the top-end of the synchronisation speed range is being achieved.
Title: Re: ISP Bridge Tap Claims
Post by: re0 on March 30, 2018, 12:59:30 AM
Nice to see that the problem has been resolved, even though the ISP claimed a bridge tap on your line. :)

Surprising how a modem with a good chipset can make all the difference ... and how ISPs can even provide equipment so bad. :no:
Title: Re: ISP Bridge Tap Claims
Post by: Dcm12 on April 10, 2018, 09:28:05 PM
https://www.btwholesale.com/includes/adsl/adsl.htm?s_cid=ws_furls_adslchecker
you will see if you have bridge tap  with identification letters