Kitz Forum

Broadband Related => ADSL Issues => Topic started by: risk_reversal on December 27, 2017, 02:06:49 PM

Title: New Router - Line becomes noisy
Post by: risk_reversal on December 27, 2017, 02:06:49 PM
Merry Xmas to all.

I am currently on ADSL2+ C&W LLU. My router syncs at 18mbps

I was considering upgrading my BB connection to FTTC. Given that my current router is a DG834GT (DGteam fw), clearly any such upgrade would require a VDSL modem.

I opted for and bought a TP W9970 (Kitz liked it) especially so as I would be using a separate WAP.

I wanted to see whether the W9970 would work on my current ADSL2+ BB connection and connected equipment without any issues.

Everything seemed to go fine during my short test which I did a few days ago (it synched the same as my DG834GT).

So today I decided to install the W9970 and leave it for a week or two to see whether any issues would surface. I did the QLT with the DG834GT in situ and the line was ok. There was a very mild hush in the background.

After installing the W9970 I did the QLT and now the line has a notable hiss to it.

I have 3 sockets in my flat but only have one in use (filter with phone & BB).

I tries using another filter but same thing. If I put the DG834GT back no loud hiss.

I understand that electronic equipment can throw a hissy at times but was wondering if anyone has used this particular router (W9970) and whether it increases the line noise at all.

Many thanks for any info provided
Cheers

Title: Re: New Router - Line becomes noisy
Post by: burakkucat on December 27, 2017, 04:35:29 PM
I don't think the new TP-Link device is generating the hiss that you are hearing. I suspect it is the swapping from an elderly device to a significantly newer device that is making a "borderline" HR (high resistance) or semi-conductive joint more noticeable.  :-\

At this stage, there is possibly nothing that you can do . . . assuming that the telephone is usable and the broadband connection to the Internet operates as normal.

Assuming that your master socket is an NTE5, I would suggest that you make the most basic test by removing the lower-front faceplate (thus disconnecting the two extension sockets) and try connecting the TP-Link modem/router & telephone, via a micro-filter, to the "test" socket. Depending upon whether or not you still hear the hiss, it will then be possible to determine if the defective joint is within your domain or the Openreach wiring. With a borderline (or intermittently) defective joint there is not a lot that can be done . . . until it "ripens" to a hard-fault.  :(
Title: Re: New Router - Line becomes noisy
Post by: risk_reversal on December 27, 2017, 05:16:14 PM
Many thanks for your reply burakkucat.

Quote
burakkucat said:
Assuming that your master socket is an NTE5, I would suggest that you make the most basic test by removing the lower-front faceplate (thus disconnecting the two extension sockets) and try connecting the TP-Link modem/router & telephone, via a micro-filter, to the "test" socket. Depending upon whether or not you still hear the hiss, it will then be possible to determine if the defective joint is within your domain or the Openreach wiring. With a borderline (or intermittently) defective joint there is not a lot that can be done . . . until it "ripens" to a hard-fault.

Regrettably, no NTE5 socket. The main BT socket has a yellow capacitor inside. Also my router is plugged into an extension socket.

Not sure if plugging the W9970 into the main socket will shed any light as, given that it is not NTE5, it will likely not disconnect the extension sockets.

I have reinstated my DG834GT for the time being.

Let me ask you a question. Presumably, if I did go ahead with upgrading to an FTTC connection and leaving aside the audible and irritating hiss on the telephone line, would the FTTC BB connection be unstable?

Cheers 
Title: Re: New Router - Line becomes noisy
Post by: NewtronStar on December 27, 2017, 07:49:40 PM
if you don't have a NTE5 then when ordering FTTC ask the ISP for a managed OR install don't know if it costs extra these days but they will replace your older Master Socket for a NTE5A or C and place a MK3 or 4 filtered face plate on to it then connect the A & B wires for your Data Extension socket where the modem resides.

When installed the OR Engineer should run those line tests to make sure BroadBand & Phone are working correctly.
Title: Re: New Router - Line becomes noisy
Post by: risk_reversal on December 27, 2017, 09:35:04 PM
if you don't have a NTE5 then when ordering FTTC ask the ISP for a managed OR install don't know if it costs extra these days but they will replace your older Master Socket for a NTE5A or C and place a MK3 or 4 filtered face plate on to it then connect the A & B wires for your Data Extension socket where the modem resides.

When installed the OR Engineer should run those line tests to make sure BroadBand & Phone are working correctly.

Sounds like a sensible idea but I have just read up on these potential HR faults and quite a lot of them do not seem that easy to resolve especially if they are on the OpenReach wiring.

Not sure that I want to switch to FTTC and find that I then have several weeks or months of hassle trying to get issues resolved.

My phone line is with BT. I did run the online diagnostics which reported no error.

As it stands, it could potentially take months or years for this fault to 'ripen'.

Presumably, if I called BT to look at this fault and change my master socket they will charge me?
I read the following on some posts

Quote
Ring BT and ask them to run a CIDT test on the line. This should identify the HR fault, and a CIDT skilled engineer will attend to locate and clear the fault.

The 'standard' BT engineer is not usually equipped by BT with the necessary diagnostic kit to detect HR faults and their standard kit will read the line as fault free. A 'specialised' engineer is required to successfully diagnose HR faults


If I accept the BT fee and have an engineer come over I would want that chap to have the required skill to fix this issue.

Cheers
Title: Re: New Router - Line becomes noisy
Post by: burakkucat on December 27, 2017, 09:55:21 PM
Currently all the wiring in your property is classed as "legacy wiring" and is owned by Openreach. You need to approach your CP/ISP and inform them that you do not have an NTE5 and, thus, there is no "test socket" that you can use when attempting to trace any fault. Your CP/ISP should submit a request to Openreach for a technician's visit to "normalise the wiring", which will be performed by fitting an NTE5. That task is free of charge (by Openreach) to your CP/ISP and, so, to yourself.

As to the question that you put to me, above, my honest answer is "I do not know". In return, I ask do you categorise your current xDSL based service as unstable?
Title: Re: New Router - Line becomes noisy
Post by: NewtronStar on December 27, 2017, 09:58:50 PM
My phone line is with BT. I did run the online diagnostics which reported no error.

Noise being introduced from a different modem onto the phone is saying to me the extension socket your using is not well

As it stands, it could potentially take months or years for this fault to 'ripen'.

Agree it can take many years for a small HR fault to ripen into large HR fault that is noticeable on Openreach's diagnostic hardware
Title: Re: New Router - Line becomes noisy
Post by: Ronski on December 27, 2017, 10:15:27 PM
The other option of course is to order a new line for the FTTC and then once installed cancel the old ADSL line. Being a different line it won't have the HR fault of your current line, but that's not to say it won't have any potential problems as it will be existing wires already in the network for the most part, and perhaps all of it - you're current line may well have spare pairs in it.
Title: Re: New Router - Line becomes noisy
Post by: risk_reversal on December 28, 2017, 12:09:16 AM
Currently all the wiring in your property is classed as "legacy wiring" and is owned by Openreach. You need to approach your CP/ISP and inform them that you do not have an NTE5 and, thus, there is no "test socket" that you can use when attempting to trace any fault. Your CP/ISP should submit a request to Openreach for a technician's visit to "normalise the wiring", which will be performed by fitting an NTE5. That task is free of charge (by Openreach) to your CP/ISP and, so, to yourself.

As to the question that you put to me, above, my honest answer is "I do not know". In return, I ask do you categorise your current xDSL based service as unstable?

Many thanks for your insight as to the classification of my wiring ie 'legacy' and how to proceed.

Would the engineer visit to 'normalise the wiring' also look at the wiring to the extensions?

As to my current ADSL2+ BB connection, with the DG834GT I would regard it as very good ie very stable connection. Phone line quality is very good as well.

I am not far from the exchange and usually sync at about 18 MBps.

I replaced the W9970 with the Netgear after a few hours as the hissing / white noise on the phone line was driving me crazy so don't have a reply as to how stable the BB was during that time with the W9970. The W9970 also synched at 18 MBps.

Noise being introduced from a different modem onto the phone is saying to me the extension socket your using is not well

Agree it can take many years for a small HR fault to ripen into large HR fault that is noticeable on Openreach's diagnostic hardware

I will plug the W9970 into the master socket tomorrow and see whether this resolves the phone hissing problem. Thanks.

The other option of course is to order a new line for the FTTC and then once installed cancel the old ADSL line. Being a different line it won't have the HR fault of your current line, but that's not to say it won't have any potential problems as it will be existing wires already in the network for the most part, and perhaps all of it - you're current line may well have spare pairs in it.

Ok. Would this require new cabling being run into my property? and where would this connection terminate? Or are you saying that if there is a spare pair of wires, they could replace the existing ones? Apologies for asking a basic question

Many thanks for your insight and ideas as to how to proceed.

Cheers
Title: Re: New Router - Line becomes noisy
Post by: burakkucat on December 28, 2017, 12:31:58 AM
Would the engineer visit to 'normalise the wiring' also look at the wiring to the extensions?

A competent technician (such as one from our own Black Sheep's flock) would certainly take the time to check the extensions. "Normalisation" would entail removal of the old master socket (the Line Jack Unit (LJU)) and fitting an NTE5 in its place. The remaining wiring and extension sockets would then be "given" to you by Openreach, to do as you wish. The technician would most likely reconnect them via the appropriate IDCs to the NTE5 . . . the connections that an end-user is entitled to make. If you explain exactly where you would like to connect your modem/router before the technician begins her/his work, the appropriate connections would probably be made so that what was an extension telephone socket then becomes a data socket for your modem/router.

Quote
As to my current ADSL2+ BB connection, with the DG834GT I would regard it as very good ie very stable connection. Phone line quality is very good as well.

In that case, I have no reason to suspect that a G.993.2 (VDSL2; FTTC) based service would be any worse.

Quote
I am not far from the exchange and usually sync at about 18 MBps.

For a G.993.2 based service it is the distance from your home to the green cabinet that is significant, the distance to the telephony serving exchange is no longer relevant.
Title: Re: New Router - Line becomes noisy
Post by: risk_reversal on December 28, 2017, 01:09:50 AM
A competent technician (such as one from our own Black Sheep's flock) would certainly take the time to check the extensions. "Normalisation" would entail removal of the old master socket (the Line Jack Unit (LJU)) and fitting an NTE5 in its place. The remaining wiring and extension sockets would then be "given" to you by Openreach, to do as you wish. The technician would most likely reconnect them via the appropriate IDCs to the NTE5 . . . the connections that an end-user is entitled to make. If you explain exactly where you would like to connect your modem/router before the technician begins her/his work, the appropriate connections would probably be made so that what was an extension telephone socket then becomes a data socket for your modem/router.

The master socket is currently in my bedroom. There are two extensions, one in another bedroom and one in my living room.

My modem router and corded phone are plugged into the extension in my living room. No other phones in any sockets.

Please forgive my stupidity but I am not clear on what you said below. What is this 'data socket' and could I also have my corded phone plugged into it?

If you explain exactly where you would like to connect your modem/router before the technician begins her/his work, the appropriate connections would probably be made so that what was an extension telephone socket then becomes a data socket for your modem/router.

In that case, I have no reason to suspect that a G.993.2 (VDSL2; FTTC) based service would be any worse.
As I said with the W9970 connected the phone line has clear hissing / white noise on it.

For a G.993.2 based service it is the distance from your home to the green cabinet that is significant, the distance to the telephony serving exchange is no longer relevant.

Yes I understand this. I have already located my green PCB and the Huawei cabinet next to it thanks to this forum's very informative pages.

Cheers
Title: Re: New Router - Line becomes noisy
Post by: ejs on December 28, 2017, 06:42:12 PM
Your CP/ISP should submit a request to Openreach for a technician's visit to "normalise the wiring", which will be performed by fitting an NTE5. That task is free of charge (by Openreach) to your CP/ISP and, so, to yourself.

Does such an Openreach service really exist? I've never seen anything official about any such service, not that I am in any particular special position to access Openreach's documents for CPs/ISPs. Some of the Openreach contracts, which are publicly available, defines the Network Termination Point as pretty much anything they like.
Title: Re: New Router - Line becomes noisy
Post by: Ronski on December 28, 2017, 07:16:55 PM
Ok. Would this require new cabling being run into my property? and where would this connection terminate? Or are you saying that if there is a spare pair of wires, they could replace the existing ones? Apologies for asking a basic question

Many thanks for your insight and ideas as to how to proceed.

Cheers

No need to apologise, it's only a basic question if you know the answer. Most drop wires (the wire from the telegraph pole to the property) or under ground feed (if you're underground fed) have more than one pair of wires. If your feed does have more than 1 pair of wires then you won't need to new cable being run to the property for a second line.

Title: Re: New Router - Line becomes noisy
Post by: Black Sheep on December 28, 2017, 07:17:22 PM
Does such an Openreach service really exist? I've never seen anything official about any such service, not that I am in any particular special position to access Openreach's documents for CPs/ISPs. Some of the Openreach contracts, which are publicly available, defines the Network Termination Point as pretty much anything they like.

Absolutely it does. I probably perform this at least once a day, on average ??.

Don't get too hung-up on the terminology ..... 'normalisation' is just another term for 'removal of star-wiring' or 'replacement of obsolete master socket' or 'connecting outside bell to SSFP' ...... things of that nature.

In a nutshell, we have approx. 2hrs paid work by the ISP in which to 'normalise' (bring up to current standards), the wiring at the EU's premises ONLY IF it has been allocated to us a module by the ISP.

There are 5 modules the ISP can 'buy' from Openreach.

1) Base (Internal up to NTE)
2) Internal wiring (EU owned - extentions etc)
3) EU's equipment (If they have set it up incorrectly etc)
4) Network (OR's external and underground network)
5) Exchange (What is says on the tin)

Before someone comes up with a 'grey' scenario, there always will be. I'm just giving the run of the mill gist of the job we do.  :)



Title: Re: New Router - Line becomes noisy
Post by: ejs on December 28, 2017, 08:17:02 PM
Those 5 modules sound similar to the SFI modules - is that service free to the ISP?

Yes, I was quite sure Openreach install modern master sockets and get rid of extension wiring all the time, just not as a free service for no other reason besides there not being any even vaguely modern master socket..
Title: Re: New Router - Line becomes noisy
Post by: Black Sheep on December 28, 2017, 09:03:00 PM
That is exactly what is an SFI product ..... that is what is being considered in this debate, is it not ??

Openreach are never free, unless it's proven onto their network.

The 'normalisation' costs tend to be footed by the ISP on behalf of their ISP, I suppose as a goodwill gesture ??  :)
Title: Re: New Router - Line becomes noisy
Post by: risk_reversal on December 28, 2017, 10:44:16 PM
So for clarity, in order to have my wiring 'normalised' (ie replace master socket with NTE5 and check wiring to extensions), do I need to call my ISP (Xilo / Uno) or my phone company, I am with BT?

Cheers
Title: Re: New Router - Line becomes noisy
Post by: NewtronStar on December 28, 2017, 10:59:09 PM
Please forgive my stupidity but I am not clear on what you said below. What is this 'data socket' and could I also have my corded phone plugged into it?

Yes you can have BroadBand and Telephone going to Extension socket which has two ports of course it will need to be wired from the NTE5 & SSFP 1 pair for telephone the second pair for data (internet)

See this thread http://forum.kitz.co.uk/index.php/topic,20694.60.html (http://forum.kitz.co.uk/index.php/topic,20694.60.html)

Have added a picture this will explain it all

[Image removed pending clarification of its origin - roseway]

Title: Re: New Router - Line becomes noisy
Post by: Black Sheep on December 29, 2017, 07:30:12 AM
So for clarity, in order to have my wiring 'normalised' (ie replace master socket with NTE5 and check wiring to extensions), do I need to call my ISP (Xilo / Uno) or my phone company, I am with BT?

Cheers

Your ISP.

On a landline (phone issue), our remit is only to work on the PSTN side of the circuit, and if that is ok when we arrive at site, then it's adios from us.

They are two separate functions in 'our' eyes (us and the CP's/ISP's).

Take your circuit for example, if you were to raise a phone issue but the reality was that your star-wiring was actually causing broadband issues (star-wiring does not affect PSTN services) .... then BT would be miffed that Openreach spent up to a few hours normalising the wiring on their bill ...... seeing as you have broadband provided by Xilo/Uno.

Not ideal, we all know that and the debate has been done to death ............. it is what it is.  :)

 
Title: Re: New Router - Line becomes noisy
Post by: risk_reversal on December 29, 2017, 12:18:58 PM
NewtronStar, that is most kind. Have watched a could of YouTube videos and can see what you mean now.

Black Sheep, many thanks for the clarity.

May I ask the following 3 and hopefully final questions

1. My current (LJU) master socket has a flush fitting face plate (with metal back box). I take it that the BT engineer will replace it with a flush fitting NTE5 face place.

2. Will the engineer replace the existing back box, or just re-use it. Presumably if the existing back box to the 'old' LJU master socket is left in situ the existing screw holes on it will line up with the new NTE5 face plate.

2. What 'flavour' of NTE5 is most likely to be fitted. My previous house had a NTE5A. But I understand that there is now a 'new' NTE5C.

Many thanks again for everybody's kind help.

Cheers


Title: Re: New Router - Line becomes noisy
Post by: Black Sheep on December 29, 2017, 12:38:07 PM
Black Sheep, many thanks for the clarity.

May I ask the following 3 and hopefully final questions

1. My current (LJU) master socket has a flush fitting face plate (with metal back box). I take it that the BT engineer will replace it with a flush fitting NTE5 face place.

2. Will the engineer replace the existing back box, or just re-use it. Presumably if the existing back box to the 'old' LJU master socket is left in situ the existing screw holes on it will line up with the new NTE5 face plate.

2. What 'flavour' of NTE5 is most likely to be fitted. My previous house had a NTE5A. But I understand that there is now a 'new' NTE5C.

Many thanks again for everybody's kind help.

Cheers

Please bear in mind my reply is a generalisation, and not tailored to yours or anybody's, specific situation.

To answer your 3 questions at once (as they kind of all link together) ............... the engineer should replace your existing LJU for the latest NTE5C and also install a MK4 SSFP (filtered front-plate) as well, if required.

I would humbly suggest that 99% of the time, the existing sunken back-box will accommodate the newer faceplate without issue. If it doesn't, we will NOT replace the back-box as I'm afraid OR's policy is, and always has been, to only install flush-fitting fixtures such as cable, boxes and sockets.

The terminology has to be right here ......... flush-fitting in this instance means we would fix a new plastic back-box direct onto the plaster, as opposed to a sunken back-box that the electricians will have chased out and installed when the house was built.

Of the other 1% of occasions the new plate wont connect to the back-box, then it's a case of nattering with the customer and working out what is best for them. More often than not it may be a case of fitting a blanking plate to the older sunken back-box, and extending the cables into a position for the newer flush-fitting back-box .... which would be either above, below or to the side of the original box .... ensuring no wires are actually on show.

I hope this makes sense .... it does it my napper.  ;) ;D
 
Title: Re: New Router - Line becomes noisy
Post by: risk_reversal on December 29, 2017, 01:58:19 PM
Bless you Black Sheep that is very informative.

I am now erring on the side of getting a telephone engineer to come and do this privately instead of going down the ISP route (with BT) so as to avoid the possibility of any unwelcomed surprises and to make sure this replacement is done as per my aesthetic requirements.

Cheers and many thanks

 

Title: Re: New Router - Line becomes noisy
Post by: Black Sheep on December 29, 2017, 02:37:34 PM
Not a problem.  :)
Title: Re: New Router - Line becomes noisy
Post by: burakkucat on December 29, 2017, 06:21:41 PM
I am now erring on the side of getting a telephone engineer to come and do this privately . . .

Most local (free) newspapers have a classified advertisements section and, more often than not, one may find the services of a retired (or ex) GPO/PO Tel/BT/Openreach engineer (technician) there listed.
Title: Re: New Router - Line becomes noisy
Post by: Black Sheep on December 29, 2017, 06:30:29 PM
Most local (free) newspapers have a classified advertisements section and, more often than not, one may find the services of a retired (or ex) GPO/PO Tel/BT/Openreach engineer (technician) there listed.

Alas, you still come across either ex-job, or electricians, or others .... that unfortunately haven't a clue about DSL behaviour. They still work on a PSTN only basis.

The first question I would ask any potential workman is, "Will you be fitting an integrated low-pass filter with the new master socket, to remove any bridged-tap scenarios ??". If his response is .... " I'm not a plumber, I don't do taps" ..... then get an expert in.  ;) ;D
Title: Re: New Router - Line becomes noisy
Post by: burakkucat on December 29, 2017, 06:55:53 PM
Alas, you still come across either ex-job, or electricians, or others .... that unfortunately haven't a clue about DSL behaviour.

A very important point that needed to be highlighted. Thank you.  :)

Of course if risk_reversal (http://forum.kitz.co.uk/index.php?action=profile;u=465) is located either within b*cat (http://forum.kitz.co.uk/index.php?action=profile;u=3667)'s home town or in the catchment area for Walter's Wheelbarrow (http://forum.kitz.co.uk/index.php?action=profile;u=1253) then there would be no problem.  ;)
Title: Re: New Router - Line becomes noisy
Post by: Black Sheep on December 29, 2017, 06:57:27 PM
Of course, sir ....... hardly needed to be mentioned.  ;) ;D ;D
Title: Re: New Router - Line becomes noisy
Post by: risk_reversal on December 30, 2017, 09:14:14 AM
I live in Central London. If you know of anyone or have any ideas please let me know.

Otherwise I was tempted to try out this guy

http://www.tele-installations.co.uk/ex-bt-engineer

Read all of his review here

https://www.freeindex.co.uk/profile%28tele-installations%29_70962.htm

Although as we all know with reviews, they are merely an indication at best

Cheers
Title: Re: New Router - Line becomes noisy
Post by: Black Sheep on December 30, 2017, 02:01:24 PM
On face value, they seem to be exactly what you need.  :)
Title: Re: New Router - Line becomes noisy
Post by: Chrysalis on December 31, 2017, 04:08:45 AM
Absolutely it does. I probably perform this at least once a day, on average ??.

Don't get too hung-up on the terminology ..... 'normalisation' is just another term for 'removal of star-wiring' or 'replacement of obsolete master socket' or 'connecting outside bell to SSFP' ...... things of that nature.

In a nutshell, we have approx. 2hrs paid work by the ISP in which to 'normalise' (bring up to current standards), the wiring at the EU's premises ONLY IF it has been allocated to us a module by the ISP.

There are 5 modules the ISP can 'buy' from Openreach.

1) Base (Internal up to NTE)
2) Internal wiring (EU owned - extentions etc)
3) EU's equipment (If they have set it up incorrectly etc)
4) Network (OR's external and underground network)
5) Exchange (What is says on the tin)

Before someone comes up with a 'grey' scenario, there always will be. I'm just giving the run of the mill gist of the job we do.  :)
thanks for the info on the modules, i wonder how often they only pay for base and then blame openrrach for lack of fix to the end user

Chinese whispers