Kitz Forum
Broadband Related => ISPs => Topic started by: chenks on October 17, 2017, 10:11:10 AM
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thinking of moving from plusnet to zen.
i know zen have get reasonably good ratings on this sites ISPs listing, but looking for comments from other zen users.
(https://forum.kitz.co.uk/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi64.tinypic.com%2F2dahpap.jpg&hash=353f27aefc60d24745e40cc83c3e20faf32e17e7)
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Personally I wouldn't. There's been quite a few customers reporting problems with packet loss or slow single threaded download speeds (myself included).
See https://www.thinkbroadband.com/news/7842-packet-loss-and-speed-problems-at-several-providers
Also see http://forums.thinkbroadband.com/zen/f/4509738-poor-single-thread-performance-problems-return.html?fpart=14&vc=1
They did mostly resolve my problem but I still get issues with speed and some intermittent packet loss at least when I used them until the 13th. I've since had a second line installed by AAISP which goes via the TalkTalk Wholesale back-haul and I've had no issues. The only minor issue I sometimes have is I seem to get an 16ms ping on certain PPP connects. If I kill PPP via the AAISP control panel then it goes back down to the usual 8ms (while I remain on fastpath anyway). AAISP may be more expensive but they are worth the premium for what you get, which is a reliable service, people who know their stuff and a very functional control panel.
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AAISP prices are simply not something i would be prepared to pay.
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I've been pretty happy since moving to Zen two or three years ago.
Big selling point for me was the UK-based call centres, and their reputation for being helpful. I've not had to put them to the test over any technical issues but even just for an enquiry about billing or change of service, contact with Zen has always been both professional and pleasant.
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No opinion on Zen but thought it worth mentioning that one of the collective websites currently has a Zen offer on: https://blog.thebigdeal.com/faqs-broadband-deal-zen/ and https://www.zen.co.uk/thebigdeal which I believe is less than their standard pricing - and open to both current and new customers
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those offers are only if you are also taking line rental with them, and that isn't what i'd be doing.
this is solely broadband only.
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There's been quite a few customers reporting problems with packet loss or slow single threaded download speeds (myself included).
See https://www.thinkbroadband.com/news/7842-packet-loss-and-speed-problems-at-several-providers
How odd, it looks very much like a congestion pattern. The build up from 6pm from home consumers and 8:30am build up is what I saw once for several weeks when on 20:1 from business lines.
To be fair this is not unique to Zen, and based on the other ISP's mentioned that implies BTw. Saffy said it doesnt affect all lines.
If I were to add all of the above symptoms together I'd guess at one of the BTw shared MSILs.
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so what is the @recommendation?
i'm still minded with Zen at the moment.
what is the Fritzbox 3490 they supply like? (i'm sure it's a step up from the billion 8800nl i currently use).
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so what is the @recommendation?
i'm still minded with Zen at the moment.
what is the Fritzbox 3490 they supply like? (i'm sure it's a step up from the billion 8800nl i currently use).
What are your issues with PN? I've been with them for years and they are always very supportive when trying to get OR to fix faults.
I've had a fault open since July, and they keep on rejecting OR when they try to hand it back. I must admit, there have been a couple of agents who don't read the notes and try to hand back to me. But a quick terse response solves that.
Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk
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so what is the @recommendation?
i'm still minded with Zen at the moment.
what is the Fritzbox 3490 they supply like? (i'm sure it's a step up from the billion 8800nl i currently use).
Which Billion 8800NL do you have? the white R1 or the black R2? The older white 8800NL's are pretty good as a pure modem.
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Which Billion 8800NL do you have? the white R1 or the black R2? The older white 8800NL's are pretty good as a pure modem.
The white one.
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What are your issues with PN? I've been with them for years and they are always very supportive when trying to get OR to fix faults.
I've had a fault open since July, and they keep on rejecting OR when they try to hand it back. I must admit, there have been a couple of agents who don't read the notes and try to hand back to me. But a quick terse response solves that.
Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk
The fact that you've had a fault open since July that still isn't fixed would be a hint that plusnet support are incompetent.
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The fact that you've had a fault open since July that still isn't fixed would be a hint that plusnet support are incompetent.
The problem is not PN, it's OpenReach.
There is a potential cable fault, collapsed duct but OR are claiming that as I am.just above my minimum estimate it's OK.
PN are fighting my case.
Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk
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Don't hold your breath.
But this is not a thread about plusnet.
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Don't hold your breath.
But this is not a thread about plusnet.
I was going to come on to Zen, as the wife uses Zen at work. However I was looking for some background on your current issue.....but as you don't appear to like being questioned, I will not waste my time. Especially when responding to a terse statement from yourself.
Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk
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as i said, this thread is not about discussing any current issues.
it is about asking for thoughts on Zen.
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I've been with Zen about 10 years. A year or so ago someone at Zen pointed out I was on an old package and could get a better deal by changing.
It does what it says on the tin - remembering no one is perfect.
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I moved from Plusnet to Zen in July this year. I did notice that the Zen line had slightly better latency (probably partly because of the cabinet modem firmware match and removal of their prioritization service) but apart from that it was identical to Plusnet.
I decided to implement IPV6 and had a bit of trouble with that so had to contact their customer support. Zen support are quick, courteous and knowledgable and had a flexiblity I'd not encountered with Plusnet.
My area doesn't have Zen backhaul so it's using the BT infrastructure. It's been as good as Plusnet, if slightly better throughput at peak times.
I was supplied with the Fritzbox 3490, and had it briefly running as a router modem. It seemed very good. I'd previously had a Billion 8800NL connected to a ECI cabinet and it had performed well. The Fritzbox can achieve a very slightly higher connection speed.
I think if you put a high value on customer service, Zen is better than Plusnet, certainly from my dealings with them, on the other hand Plusnet were a bit cheaper.
Thanks
Tim
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I cannot recommend zen, too many reports of performance issues (remember also it has a small userbase), and the issues that people like ixel have had trying to get line issues looked at.
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what performance issues?
any that were specific to Zen or not BTw wide issues?
and what problems getting a line issue looked at? ixel mentione other issues but not a line issue.
are you basing your non recommendation on your own experience or anecdotal reports from other people?
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The reports are on the TBB forums as well as some I received from friends personally over email.
I said I cannot recommend it, that doesnt mean I am saying stay away.
Ixel's issues are detailed on here and on TBB.
Also I 'think' Andrew on TBB did a recent news article as well. Yeah its here.
https://www.thinkbroadband.com/news/7842-packet-loss-and-speed-problems-at-several-providers, note that idnet rent backhaul from zen, I dont know about the 3rd provider.
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Particularly my line issue which was closed due to CIDT test passing and the voice/line engineer finding no fault with his equipment (except I needed a broadband engineer as this is a broadband specific problem). Only thing I can be thankful for is that Zen didn't pass on the Openreach 'no fault found' charge to me since it wasn't agreed prior to the engineer coming.
Before I stopped using Zen I was still having intermittent performance issues (intermittent packet loss in small amounts as well as slower single threaded download speeds around peak hours). I honestly can't recommend them. I'm with AAISP now for my second and new line as I mentioned earlier, spoke to them on IRC and I was told by Shaun that they could help so I emailed them as well as providing some stats from my HG612 and got a very fast response from Shaun to confirm a fault has been raised with TT and that there will be a broadband engineer! This is what Zen should've asked for based on what I've told them and shown them but it didn't happen for some reason. Even the Openreach voice/line engineer I had who found no fault told me I needed a broadband engineer. Despite all this I've not had slow single threaded download speeds on my AAISP connection.
TLDR: Due to my recent problems when I needed their support I can no longer recommend Zen.
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It would be interesting to know if those on Zen who are experiencing these issues are on a BTw based product or if they are using the new Zen backhaul.
As I mentioned in my post above, it does look like congestion... but the fact that those on other ISPs are also seeing similar... plus its not affecting all Zen customers... I think one of the most useful things people could report is if they are on Zens network... or if BTw. Geographic location could also help.
When PN had issues with the BTw MSILs, it was exceedingly hard to track down because a lot of EU's where OK. Plusnet were saying that it was not their network.
Not being funny but I was one of the first to spot that it only seemed to be affecting certain areas... and I do believe that I was the first to suggest it could be the BTw MSILs. A lot of people didnt believe me at first... but in the end it was later confirmed by PN that I was right and there were some shared MSILs that were running hot. This may or may not have been instrumental to PN moving away from shared MSILs and now using dedicated BTw.
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It would be interesting to know if those on Zen who are experiencing these issues are on a BTw based product or if they are using the new Zen backhaul.
As I mentioned in my post above, it does look like congestion... but the fact that those on other ISPs are also seeing similar... plus its not affecting all Zen customers... I think one of the most useful things people could report is if they are on Zens network... or if BTw. Geographic location could also help.
When PN had issues with the BTw MSILs, it was exceedingly hard to track down because a lot of EU's where OK. Plusnet were saying that it was not their network.
Not being funny but I was one of the first to spot that it only seemed to be affecting certain areas... and I do believe that I was the first to suggest it could be the BTw MSILs. A lot of people didnt believe me at first... but in the end it was later confirmed by PN that I was right and there were some shared MSILs that were running hot. This may or may not have been instrumental to PN moving away from shared MSILs and now using dedicated BTw.
I'm on the Zen back-haul, I used to be on WBMC and don't recall having issues with performance when I was.
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Interesting post on TBB http://forums.thinkbroadband.com/zen/t/4569280-six-months-to-fix-throughput-problem.html (http://forums.thinkbroadband.com/zen/t/4569280-six-months-to-fix-throughput-problem.html) from Zen rep Jon Green, that may add some info.
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i suppose there would be no way to know if you would be on zen backhaul or WBMC before migrating?
Zen aren't listed as an LLU on my exchange.
https://availability.samknows.com/broadband/exchange/WSKIE
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i suppose there would be no way to know if you would be on zen backhaul or WBMC before migrating?
Zen aren't listed as an LLU on my exchange.
https://availability.samknows.com/broadband/exchange/WSKIE
Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but if Zen isn't listed as LLU on your exchange then it's quite possible you'll be on the BTw back-haul.
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The Sam list is outdated as far as Zen is concerned.
Also the way FTTC works, Zen doesnt need to have a presence at your local exchange, but instead at the head-end exchange.
I know where they are hoping to expand, but the difficulty even with having this data is trying to find a way to integrate it into the checker without having a complete BT list of which Headend exchanges serve what local exchanges. I tried to build something in my checker several months ago, but until I know Openreach parent and child exchanges I'm a bit stuck.
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so you wouldn't really know until you started using the service then i guess.
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Their rollout is pretty major and without trying to sound like I'm plugging them (I have no reason to), then eventually this will be Yuge.
As a whole Zen are still growing on the business side and last year they took on loads of new staff. Not just 'any' staff either, a lot came from other ISP's or industries, so even the CS type aren't noobs and less likely to be script monkies.
They have put millions into investing new equipment. I think (hope) what is going on right now is teething problems as they switch over to the new system.
If anyone can come in from behind and do this right, then it should be Zen, because when it is completed it will make them a major player in the UK up amongst the big boy names.
I think they have shown foresight. PN realised that the BTw MSILs weren't working for them and gone dedicated to give them more control. Zen have taken another approach and are quietly plugging away in the background to build something big that they can call their own. The fact that they mostly support business products means that they cannot afford to muck up. I really do hope this works out for them, when completed it will give them a prescence throughout most of the UK. How many other SP's have attempted trying to take BT as much out of the picture as they can - although obviously they will still be reliant on Openreach.
The weird thing is they are quietly coming in from the rear and getting there. There are some other well known names in the industry who have faith they can do this and are watching and waiting. Because their target audience is business rather than consumer, then the media seem to have little interest.
You can read more about it here.
https://www.zen.co.uk/latest-news.aspx?page=12218
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so you wouldn't really know until you started using the service then i guess.
Zen would know though. I'm sure they would tell you prior to ordering if you asked them.
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There is another checker somewhere, but cannot remember where it is, I do know I was able to determine my exchange does not have ZEN LLU using it, but cannot remember what checker it was.
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The Sam list is outdated as far as Zen is concerned.
Also the way FTTC works, Zen doesnt need to have a presence at your local exchange, but instead at the head-end exchange.
I know where they are hoping to expand, but the difficulty even with having this data is trying to find a way to integrate it into the checker without having a complete BT list of which Headend exchanges serve what local exchanges. I tried to build something in my checker several months ago, but until I know Openreach parent and child exchanges I'm a bit stuck.
I can recall reading something about parent /child exchanges several years ago now, i found that the bigger exchange which is an ATME is a child to a smaller sub-exchange , i don't recall where that info was
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Possibly here? The head-end exchange is parent to many smaller exchanges. When it comes to VDSL, the cab's fibre backhaul is fed direct to the parent exchange rather than the local one. Openreach call them head-end exchanges. I posted a simplified drawing I did a while back to show how it worked.
What I don't have is a full list of Openerach parent -> child exchanges.
I do have several thousand of them, but that is far from the complete list nor is it in a particularly friendly format to put into a database.
But.. for example this one which I've just pulled out because it has quite a lot of child exchanges.. and also because it may be of interest to a certain black cat.
Parent Code EABSE
Child Code
EABEY Beyton
EABRR Barrow
EABSE Bury St Edmunds
EACFD Cockfield Green
EACHT Chevington
EACUL Culford
EACWT Coney Weston
EAGBN Great Barton
EAHKD Hawkedon
EAHRR Horringer
EAHTT Hartest
EAPAK Pakenham
EASIC Sicklesmere
EASTT Stanton
EAWLW Walsham Le Willows
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Ah, EABSE. I know it well. :)
Perhaps I should clarify that it is not an East Anglian form of Bovine Spongiform Encephalopathy (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bovine_spongiform_encephalopathy) . . . :D
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the other option i have (or will soon have ) it Virgin Media.
they have just finished cabling my street, but i'm not at all convinced by Virgin.
yes they have great "advertised" speeds, but in reality i believe you are unlikely to every get anywhere near that?
their base 50Mbps package has a very low upstream i believe? and it priced at £27pm (broadband only)
even the 100Mbps package has an appaperent very low upstream
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Did you go for Zen in the end? I'm considering them too, when my current PN contract expires in a month. Thanks.
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I have been with Zen for over 10 years, they are not perfect and I did have some issues a few years ago with what appeared to be congestion. I am on the Tenbury Wells exchange (https://availability.samknows.com/broadband/exchange/WNTW), I don't think Zen have their own local loop connection (or whatever).
In general though they have been very good, both from a connectivity point of view and also customer service, they always pick up the phone, the people are always polite and seem to know what they are talking about.
I also have a PlusNet line, works OK but good luck trying to get any support from them.
Thing about support is, most of the time its completely irrelevant, but when you DO need it ..... its REALLY important.
So, I like Zen.
Chunks
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I have been with Zen for over 10 years, they are not perfect and I did have some issues a few years ago with what appeared to be congestion. I am on the Tenbury Wells exchange (https://availability.samknows.com/broadband/exchange/WNTW), I don't think Zen have their own local loop connection (or whatever).
In general though they have been very good, both from a connectivity point of view and also customer service, they always pick up the phone, the people are always polite and seem to know what they are talking about.
I also have a PlusNet line, works OK but good luck trying to get any support from them.
Thing about support is, most of the time its completely irrelevant, but when you DO need it ..... its REALLY important.
So, I like Zen.
Chunks
Just wondering, when was the last time you had to contact support? I assume it was quite some time ago. You might find their support not as efficient as it was once stated to be if so.
As I believe you already know/heard, I had a problem with my Zen connection probably now two months ago which wasn't resolved where AAISP took on the problem on my new line and got it resolved after four SFI engineer visits (excessive errors on downstream causing heavy interleaving). All I had from Zen was one voice/line engineer visit where I should've had an SFI engineer as it was a broadband related issue. The only positive thing I can say is that Zen disputed the charge from Openreach, otherwise they considered the problem resolved when there was still an underlying problem on that line (and still is last I checked). Then there's the issue of some intermittent packet loss or slow single threaded download speed, while partly resolved in the end it seems the problem started happening again at peak times (e.g. evenings) before I stopped using Zen, instead of previously almost throughout the day every day. I used to like Zen but when I needed their customer service probably two months ago they didn't fight my corner with Openreach like AAISP (and TTB?) did. I'm just waiting for my contract minimum term to end with Zen later next year so I can cancel FTTC, as last I heard if I cancel now I would have to pay the full value of the remainder of the contract which makes no sense for me to do so.
On the other hand the second line (AAISP) is performing much better with no excessive errors any longer and a much higher sync rate, no possible congestion issues and negligible packet loss. I'm even getting just under 6ms latency to YouTube when pinging it over the new TalkTalk backhaul that I'm currently trialling (https://i.imgur.com/5ihudAa.png)!
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Just wondering, when was the last time you had to contact support?
Its been a while for sure, sorry you have been having trouble with them. I can only really comment on my own experience but it sounds like they haven't lived up to expectations in your case.
A&A certainly have a fab reputation but last time I checked they were quite expensive? So perhaps they are no so much a mass-market competitor to Zen?
Not sure what their basic ADSL package costs, I pay £22pm + VAT for basic unlimited ADSL connection (not including line rental).
Chunks
Cheers
Chunks
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Its been a while for sure, sorry you have been having trouble with them. I can only really comment on my own experience but it sounds like they haven't lived up to expectations in your case.
A&A certainly have a fab reputation but last time I checked they were quite expensive? So perhaps they are no so much a mass-market competitor to Zen?
Not sure what their basic ADSL package costs, I pay £22pm + VAT for basic unlimited ADSL connection (not including line rental).
Chunks
Cheers
Chunks
Indeed, AAISP are definitely not the cheapest nor do they aim to be. They are more of a specialist ISP that has certain standards which they uphold proudly.
Their cheapest ADSL package is 200GB (up to I believe 400GB allowing for 'quota bonus' depending on usage) at 25 pounds per month (or 35 pounds per month if you want PSTN/copper line rental with them) over the BT backhaul. The highest home package for ADSL is 1000GB (up to I believe 2000GB allowing for 'quota bonus' depending on usage) at 40 pounds per month (or 50 pounds per month if you want line rental with them) over I believe TalkTalk Business backhaul.
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Their cheapest ADSL package is 200GB (up to I believe 400GB allowing for 'quota bonus' depending on usage) at 25 pounds per month (or 35 pounds per month if you want PSTN/copper line rental with them) over the BT backhaul
Thats actually not bad, 200GB would be plenty.
Cheers
Chunks