Kitz Forum
Broadband Related => FTTC and FTTP Issues => Topic started by: JamesK on August 25, 2017, 06:12:19 PM
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Hi All,
Randomly checked MDWS just now to see the traffic lights for my line not looking healthy at all, which is pretty unusual. Generally my line is very stable.
Looking at the ES and SES graphs there seemed to be a huge burst last night around 9pm and then again today at midday.
There's been no changes in my house, and no roadworks around the route of the line back to the fibre cabinet. The weather has also been fine. So not really sure what could cause such a huge burst of errors.
My profile on MDWS is JamesK.
Question is, with this amount of errors will DLM intervene tonight? I'm hoping not.
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Your SNRM has been taking a few dips starting at 21:50 which co-coincided with the first batch of errors - indicating some sort of noise being generated on the line. Could be caused by numerous things I'm afraid.
>> will DLM intervene tonight?
You may be ok :fingers:.
I think BT mostly uses speed profile - although they have also been known to use standard if you have BT TV.
If you are on Speed 2880 is the magic number for Err Secs & 1440 for Standard.
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I thought I'd got away with it as there was no overnight resync notification... then DLM decided to intervene at 13:30. I'm not sure why it did as the ES/SES didn't increase significantly further yesterday.
This is to let you know that a resync/restart occurred on your line at 13:28 on Saturday 26th August 2017 local time (+/- 1 minute).
Reason: 1 Remote Defect Indicator/DLM
Current Downstream Sync Rate is now 34998kbps @ 7.7db SNRM. Attainable is 46884kbps Current Upstream Sync Rate is now 8558kbps @ 6.0db SNRM. Attainable is 8604kbps as measured at the time of this email.
Not sure what's going on with my line at the moment. A couple of months ago the upstream ES went crazy for no apparent reason, and then settled down. The only change to the property has been having smart gas and electricity meters installed.
My downstream, as measured by speedtest.net is 32.5mbps. Am I at a point where I can raise it with BT? My non-impacted speed estimate is between 45.1 and 34.1. What's the downstream handback threshold? I've never seen that listed on the BT Broadband Availability checker before.
(https://forum.kitz.co.uk/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi74.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fi276%2FJamesK1975%2FBT%2520Cabling%2F2017-08-26%252013_53_23-BT%2520Broadband.jpg&hash=e349b434985e9ef64303c021a6cd2545e2040e8b) (http://s74.photobucket.com/user/JamesK1975/media/BT%20Cabling/2017-08-26%2013_53_23-BT%20Broadband.jpg.html)
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image doesnt work bud, try imgur.
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Didn't realise Photobucket didn't work anymore... here it is again...
http://imgur.com/a/T2qnO
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What was the estimate given to you by BT, thats more relevant than the BT wholesale estimate.
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I've had Fibre since 2012, I think that was in the days when you just ordered a product. I recontracted with BT a few months ago, but again I don't recall them mentioning a specific minimum speed.
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I thought I'd got away with it as there was no overnight resync notification... then DLM decided to intervene at 13:30.
Overnight is no longer a foregone conclusion. As more people have got FTTC the times have extended later on in the day. Mine is usually about 11am but I have had a couple after lunch and Ive seen someone else report as late as 3:30 in the afternoon. There is no strict time frame, it may just be down to how many people have DLM changes on that particular day.
I'm not sure why it did as the ES/SES didn't increase significantly further yesterday.
When I looked last night your traffic lights were showing Red for Standard Profile and Amber for Speed Profile.
I was hoping that you my be on Speed, but I mentioned both profiles because Ive seen people on BT mention both.
I'm afraid that once you trigger the threshold DLM will take action regardless if the line stabilises later in the day.
As the regs on here will no doubt know... its one of my problems with DLM. I will go through a patch of Err Secs at about 11am sufficient to trigger DLM, I can then clear it, but DLM has already spotted it and will penalise me the next day despite the fact the line threw hardly any more errors for the rest of the day.
Not sure what's going on with my line at the moment. A couple of months ago the upstream ES went crazy for no apparent reason, and then settled down. The only change to the property has been having smart gas and electricity meters installed.
From looking at your SNRM, it would appear something regularly causes a small amount of REIN between 9-10pm each evening. Its only small causing a loss of about 0.5dB, but it is visible. For the past couple of days though that 0.5dB loss has increased to 3.5dB and since then its also happening at other times of the day.
Unfortunately REIN (http://www.kitz.co.uk/adsl/rein.htm#REIN) is extremely difficult to track down :(
My downstream, as measured by speedtest.net is 32.5mbps. Am I at a point where I can raise it with BT? My non-impacted speed estimate is between 45.1 and 34.1. What's the downstream handback threshold? I've never seen that listed on the BT Broadband Availability checker before.
To quote something Ive typed elsewhere
The Downstream Handback Threshold is intended to reflect the slowest 10th percentile for a line. This is a figure at which the service is considered totally unacceptable and allows an order to be reversed without charge.
Unfortunately some ISPs - such as Plusnet - appear to be using that figure to be able to raise an intermittent fault and are using it to reflect the MGAL and thus the level at which you can raise a fault. Ive had this discussion elsewhere, but they wont be moved. Full paragraph (relating to an 80/20 line) was actually
Quoting the MGALS rate is ISP related ie the slowest 10% of ISP customers with the same headline speed is irrelvant. Headline speed is 80/20. If you fall below the MGAL level then you are allowed to exit without penalty or charge. MGALS may vary from ISP to ISP and is NOT intended to be a threshold level at which you will or wont raise a fault to BT - See OFCOM 2015 Voluntary Code of Practice Broadband Speeds.
The Downstream Handback Threshold is intended to reflect the slowest 10th percentile for a line. This is a figure at which the service is considered totally unacceptable and allows an order to be reversed without charge. Again it is not intended to be a fault threshold level and other factors such as line history should be looked at. Handback rules relate to a line which can be ceased without charge or reverted back to adsl if the line has been investigated by Openreach for under performance.
In cases such as these connection fees, rental charges, cease & early termination fees should be refunded to the EU. See WBC FTTC Handbook.
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The problem is because of crosstalk, the quoted figures do decrease over time, so any figure given in 2012 is no longer going to be applicable, but as a guide you can use the Downstream Line Rate of 34.1 Mbps
What I'm not liking about your line is your sync is currently 34,998 which looks like it may be capped. The line has been INP 3 for a while, so if it has capped as well as increasing INP to 3.5 that seems a bit harsh for one step. No-one yet has been able to fathom out what is happening with DLM capping.
You could try raising a fault with BT, you obviously do have something REIN like going on with that line. The difficulty could be that Openreach turn up and its at a time when the line is OK. I would definitely keep logging your stats - atm the SNRM is about the only proof that there is something wrong.
I would also do a Quiet Line Test just to make sure you cant hear any noise on the phone line.
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Thanks very much for the detailed response Kitz. It's much appreciated. I probably should've searched for information on the Downstream Handback Threshold definition rather than just asking in my post.
I'm on the 80/20 BT Infinity 2 product, so I'd always assumed that was on the Speed profile by default. I don't know if things have changed with BT but trying to get an engineer out in the past has always been a nightmare. Getting past the offshore call centre was horrendous last time I had to complain back in 2013.
http://imgur.com/a/yFndD
I've attached a map of my area. The area in red was the original estate built in the 1930's-ish. Cabinet 6 serves this area. My area in blue was built in 2001/2002 and was also attached to cabinet 6. The area in green was built in 2002/2003, and was connected to a new cabinet, number 53. This still hasn't been FTTC enabled so users in green are stuck with ADSL. I'm approximately 950m from the cabinet, with the cabling running along Green Lanes, into Campion Road and then Bluebell Way. Cabinet 6 is located in the middle of massively overgrown common ground. When FTTC was installed for me the engineer sent was from a different area, and actually couldn't find it, as the grass, etc has grown so tall. It's approximately 50m from any properties.
As a side note NTL enabled the red estate with cable in the 90's. When the new blue estate was built in 01/02 they went to the trouble to extend their network into Campion Road/Great Braitch Lane as there are NTL manholes everywhere, but for some reason never completed the work. No-one seems to be able to get an answer as to why.
When I had fibre installed in 2012 it was ok for a while, and then download speeds dropped off a cliff after about a year. If I recall it was down to 18mb and capped. I posted about it on here at the time. I had horrendous trouble getting BT to come out. When they did I got lucky and got an excellent engineer. Not only did he fix a fault in the road. The cables housed in a black clamshell device underneath a BT manhole were all trapped in the housing. He fixed that and then reset DLM. He then also discovered I had a 10mb loss in speed with the internal wiring in the house. So we installed the modem in my kitchen, which had the closest socket to where the BT cable entered he property. I then ran Ethernet from there to our living room, which is the best location for the router. Since then the line has been relatively fine. I've always had a degree of interleaving. INP has always been 3 and the interleaving depth has varied from 700-900. I put that down to the distance to the cabinet. Having always had speeds of around 40mb it's never been a problem. I don't know if it helps my issues that the cabinet is ECI.
I've no real idea what could be causing the SNRM to dip at around 9-10pm, unless it's related to street lighting coming on. This is a relatively quiet housing estate with nothing else of note near to us. Obviously if it's now happening during the day it won't be related to street lighting. I'm sure the electrics in the house are good. They were tested when the smart meters were installed, and again a year previously when we had a new kitchen installed and a new circuit needed to be installed.
I'm not looking forward to raising it with BT after my last experiences with them. I'm hoping their customer service has improved since then.
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Large dips on the DS snrm like you have could be down to massive electrical arcing can only equate what your getting is like Lighting strikes just above your house or within the house and close to the modem it's just way to intense for my liking.
If it was a wide area event the DLM would not have taken action on your line sounds more local to me.
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Is it possible the new smart meter is the problem? I had no issues before it was installed. Admittedly I'd not uploaded to MDWS for a couple of months before as the line had been so stable it didn't seem worth it. The modem is less than 3 metres from the smart meter.
It seems there have been issues with smart meters...
http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/articles/5THjNWMjNdKyWwCXt48HJNB/smart-meter-installations
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We have had a electric smart meter installed since 2009 and it does not interfere with VDSL that I can see though its 17 meters away from the modem.
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Hi
We had a smart meter installed as well and absolutely no difference, my broadband continued on a UPS for the duration of the meter installation and SNR didn't vary before during or afterwards.
Now of course the smart meter installation could be faulty, although the regular timings suggest it's something happening by a schedule. If it is something like arching electrical connections you could try tuning an AM radio to to quiet spot and see if you here anything around the trigger time.
It could be something like this near by https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GMbN9nb3qyk (although usually they shouldn't disconnect in quite such a manner) do you have any sub-stations looking similar close by that might have an automatic switching of grid power at those times?
It could just as easily be a thermostat or switch in your house arching, they do a similar thing sometimes although on a much smaller scale.
Regards
Phil
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On reflection I doubt it's the smart meter install. I stopped monitoring during May as the stats on my line were so boring, there didn't seem much point. It was only out of curiosity that I restarted them after the smart meter install as I wanted to see what the HG612 resync'd at. I got quite a surprise to see so many upstream ES... these ceased after about a month, and then the downstream went crazy on Friday. Looking back on previous stats the SNRM dips were happening for quite some time, certainly predating the smart meter install by several months
At the bottom of the next door neighbours back garden is a building that has signage relating to the Electricity supplier:
http://imgur.com/a/UP2ZN.
In the 5 years we've lived here I've never once seen anyone enter the building, so I'm not sure what's in there.
At the moment the thermostat in the house (Nest) is turned so low that the heating will never come on. The hot water is set to constant, so the boiler, pump, etc do come on at random times. I may put that on a schedule so that I can see if the SNRM dips occur during the timeframes that the boiler is permitted to fire up. It's a new system that's less than 2 years old, so it should all be fine.
Short of turning off electrical sockets, is there a way I can easily test items/sockets to see if they're causing a problem?
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Hi
That looks like an electricity sub station, typically they are always on, they shouldn't be switching on and off (as it probably connects directly to your power supply) and shouldn't be doing much on a schedule I shouldn't have thought. Other potential sources are things like sewage pumps, these are often hidden underground and can come on and off by themselves at certain times or randomly depending on the level of sewage. Often you can spot these by a small green box (about shoe box size) along a verge, this contains access to the electrical connections etc leading down to a pump underground, and that box may be the only give away. Similar electronic valves and pumps can exist for clean water so they can reroute supplies remotely.
Essentially you can drive yourself mad trying to find a source. The only easy thing to rule out is something in your own home by turning everything off apart from the modem and perhaps the PC monitoring it.
People suggest walking around with an AM radio tuned between stations and holding it up against electrical items in your home, but essentially every electrical item will sound noisy, so it doesn't always help except make you suspect anything that plugs in.
It could be some electrical item someone is using that is faulty, there have been posts before about a neighbours faulty TV or similar knocking out broadband for people when it was in use. Unfortunately the technology used is flaky due to using telephone cable never designed for data, everyone's connection is there by the grace of god really, and so it takes very little to upset things.
Regards
Phil
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I too live near a substation which is just beyond the other half of two link detached, mine and my neighbour's. A month or so back I had troubles, and checked out with the supply company for known issues. There being none, I requested a site survey of the substation. Nothing was found, but with email- a copy here made anonymous-
Good Morning Mr ****
I hope the attached information above will leave you better informed on the specifics of Electromagnetic Field surveys? (EMF)
I have completed a ‘Desktop’ survey and can confirm there is very little potential to generate any EMF values that would require any further action. I have also attached a copy of our explanatory notes called “EMF the facts” and the associated network drawings to qualify the assessment.
Hopefully, these documents will give you very good information and confirm my decision for no ‘on-site’ assessment.
In reference to the ‘EMF the Facts’ document may I specifically draw your attention to page 4 of the document and the associated reference levels?
My points for no on-site survey;
There is a tremendously high dissipation factor for EMF potential when you move a short distance, even in as little as approximately 3ft or 1mtr from an energised cable or substation.
Your main property is approximately 10 m from the low Voltage underground cable conductor.
Your main property is approximately 15.5m from the High Voltage substation. (Both dependant on cable position in relation to the house building line)
You will notice in the ‘EMF the Facts’ document above we use public exposure reference levels of above 100 microtesla. (Please refer to Page 4).
Typical EMF levels at this distance could traditionally generate EMF readings between 0.01 & 0.3 microtesla.
I would not envisage any reading above 0.4 microtesla at the location. (Well below any potential for concern or further investigation)
Please be advised that if you feel any of the information is not clear please don’t hesitate to call me on my mobile.
In conclusion, I do however understand that piece of mind is everything so will answer any additional question you may have.
were two large scale maps shown the runs of both high and low power cables- not shown here for privacy- and a booklet on EMF
(https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B16WAVYKSZrBUlpDSjd1MEhBSmc).
Hopefuuly it will be of some interest.
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Many thanks Phil and renluop for the useful information.
Something I realised last night is that our baby monitor (one of these (https://www.amazon.co.uk/Motorola-MBP18-Digital-Monitor-Display/dp/B00JPHHNT0/ref=sr_1_1_a_it?ie=UTF8&qid=1504098177&sr=8-1&keywords=mbp18)) seems to lose contact with the remote camera at similar times to the SNRM dips. As soon as display loses contact with the camera it goes crazy with alerts (for obvious reasons). The only guaranteed way of upsetting the baby monitor is to put the microwave on, but we only knew that from having the monitor in the kitchen while preparing food.
I contacted the utility company, and they are going to send someone to check the smart meter installation. Who did you contact regarding the sub-station?
For the past couple of years I've used a raspberry Pi to monitor the HG612. That uses an 'official' Raspberry power supply, and it's plugged into the socket next to the HG612. I've put a longer ethernet lead on it and temporarily moved it to a different socket. I also put the hot water on a timed mode so I'll know the time windows in which the boiler can operate. At this point I'm really not sure what, in my house, could be switching on/activating at the times the SNRM dips are occurring.
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Apologies for resurrecting my old post.... since last posting I've been monitoring the line and found that nothing has improved the daily dips in SNRM. I've tried things like changing the plug sockets, using a different modem (Zyxel 8924) instead of the HG612 and monitoring the line when we've been on holiday with only the modem, Pi and Router powered up the in the house.
Yesterday I put the HG612 back, and also replaced the gel crimps on the incoming feed. This did have the effect of increasing the SNRM from 5.8 to 7.6. However, the regular dips in SNRM continue to occur, so not much chance of DLM relenting. I really have no idea what's causing it.
BT called me yesterday as my contract is up for renewal. They were convinced I could get over 40mb, and wanted me to try their new and improved technical support team. They duly put me through, and unsurprisingly the person I spoke with decided there was nothing wrong with my line, despite the 10mb drop in speed over one night last year. He felt the best course of action would be to send me a new home hub.
So, as the BT renewal price for being a valid customer is £12/month more expensive than their 'new' customer deals, and deals offered by pretty much every other supplier I'm now looking to move supplier.
Would there be any benefit in me requesting the new provider supply me with a new line?
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Would there be any benefit in me requesting the new provider supply me with a new line?
That is difficult to answer and in all honesty it is a decision only you can make. Is there a possibility that a newly provided metallic pathway bearing a circuit from a new supplier will be free of the above problem? Yes . . . but my feeling is that the possibility is rather slim.
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Hi
I agree that a new line isn't any guarantee really, it will usually be provisioned from the spare pair that is already in the same cable, so it travels the exact same route and will likely pick up the same interference. It may make things worse as you then have an extra "antenna" picking up the noise and routing it back into your home.
Regards
Phil
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A few days ago I experimented with limiting the sync speed on the HG612 to 20mb. The SNRM dB immediately went from 7.4 to 17.1. This morning DLM initiated a resync. Interleaving has been removed. However, the SNRM dB has increased to 23.9. Would this be expected behaviour going from interleaved to fast path?
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Had a look at stats on MDWS and was expecting to see an big increase on your attainable sync since the large increase in SNRM but nothing has changed just the opposite attainable has lowered the normal change from interleaving to fastpath as you would expect.
To me it just looks like your circuits banding has been removed.
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The Max attainable has dropped as I would expect as interleaving exaggerates the attainable.
Not sure why it made the SNRM jump so much.
To me it just looks like your circuits banding has been removed.
What gives that impression? I find that impossible to tell with a capped sync.
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I powered off the modem for 30 minutes this morning, and let it start up without any speed restrictions in place. The result is that I'm still banded as before at 34,998. Interleaving is off, and SNRM dB is at 15.6.
It will be interesting to see how the line performs, and how long it remains before interleaving is re-applied.
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I'm sorry I missed something in a very early post! :-[
The substation would be in the hands of the company which cares for the local supply infrastructure. Living, as I do, in SW Hants, I contacted SSE Power Distribution.