Kitz Forum

Broadband Related => ISPs => Topic started by: insidejob on March 23, 2017, 12:07:56 AM

Title: I need a certain type of isp - Recommendations Please
Post by: insidejob on March 23, 2017, 12:07:56 AM
Hi, hopefully in right forum for this. I assume many member on here use a verity of broadband providers?  I need some recommendations of isp's that one, have a dynamic IP and two dont show your home location so close to your actual City/town?

I am after fibre broadband really. I Dont want to go back to slow ADSL type broadband if I can help it.
Not plusnet as that's who I am with.

It would be helpful of members of other isp's, including BT, to say if you home location is shown or the central Hub data centres?

Thanks.
Title: Re: I need a certain type of isp - Recommendations Please
Post by: Weaver on March 23, 2017, 12:32:22 AM
The thing about 'showing your location' is pretty much random, so it seems, in the sense that when you look at different ISPs and the accuracy of the geolocation of customers. We were discussing this a while ago. Certainly, with my ISP geolocation doesn't work at all.

But I certainly wouldn't want dynamic IPv4 addresses, in fact, I have gone to the opposite extreme, where every single box has a globally routable static IPv4 address and no NAT. I want a static IPv4 address because of reliability. If I lose the connection to the ISP, I can automatically reconnect and TCP sessions can carry on regardless, rather than just dropping everything on the floor, as TCP would have to if one endpoint moves.

If you don't want anyone to know where you are geographically, you have more to worry about from services bundled in with your operating system or with web browsers that report location based on Wireless LAN MAC addresses. Your iPhone or google / Facebook apps are pretty keen on identifying your location by a whole range of methods and this has nothing to do with a choice of ISP.

You need to think about cookies tracking you, these will track you even if you keep changing your ISP. So I don't see how picking a particular ISP is going to work because it isn't enough.

I would suggest that you just use Tor and then pick any good ISP you like. You can also use VPN services that move your apparent location away from the location shown for the actual ISP providing the current physical connection.

Also, remember IPv6 is about to take over. When you use IPv6 then you can use privacy addresses which individually are much harder to track. With the advent of IPv6, hopefully, most likely, there will be static /64 prefixes assigned to every LAN and that will identify where you are. But iirc Sky accidentally has dynamic prefix assignement for some imho crazy reason (to do with the advantages of making administration more difficult, the service less capable and minimising reliability.)

Do please ask if you don't know what Tor is. I am afraid that it will really be necessary to learn about all of this stuff unless you just want a false sense of security. A Tor browser and Tor VPN will sort you out and you will be able to have the best ISP because it is the best, not because of accidental characteristics which are going to change anyway.
Title: Re: I need a certain type of isp - Recommendations Please
Post by: ejs on March 23, 2017, 06:25:30 AM
In case anyone wants the history:
https://community.plus.net/t5/Everything-else/Plusnets-IP-s-Now-reveal-your-Location-to-close-to-home-Security/td-p/1422721
Title: Re: I need a certain type of isp - Recommendations Please
Post by: Weaver on March 23, 2017, 08:31:34 AM
My ISP doesn't sell people's home locations to any utter gits for money as far as I am aware, and to do so it seems to me would be very much against their public stance relating to human rights. You can contact them and ask them about this.

All geolocation lookups for my IPv4 addresses are several hundred miles out.

What information can you find out about yourself by searching in various public databases?
Title: Re: I need a certain type of isp - Recommendations Please
Post by: insidejob on March 23, 2017, 11:26:22 AM
Thanks Weaver for your reply. I appreciate you going in to detail but much of what you say isn't a problem like browser, OS, social media but at same time, I dont really want to use tor. It's Plusnet that are the problem.

I am already considering a VPN but Plusnet have only just started this location thing recently and are no longer the right ISP for me. I prefer dynamic IP and only if you are a business, gamer, or run a mail server, is a static IP any use. PN offer static IP at extra cost but I dont want it and will have the same issues, as it's the same isp.

My issues are related to this and as a consequence of it. http://forum.kitz.co.uk/index.php?topic=16711.0


So would like to keep it to isp recommendations and if members kindly on here, can say, if there real home location is showing under that ISP or not.  Thanks :)

Title: Re: I need a certain type of isp - Recommendations Please
Post by: Oldjim on March 23, 2017, 01:20:00 PM
one assumes that your town is one on this list http://www.kitz.co.uk/adsl/MSE_locations.htm and, if so, you need an ISP which doesn't use them
Title: Re: I need a certain type of isp - Recommendations Please
Post by: ejs on March 23, 2017, 02:26:17 PM
The presence of an MSE at your exchange doesn't matter, I think I still connected via the MSE at my exchange while on WBMC Shared with Plusnet, with much more widely varying IP addresses. It's how IP addresses are allocated that's important.

I suppose a smaller ISP would be less likely to have things divided up on a regional basis.
Title: Re: I need a certain type of isp - Recommendations Please
Post by: burakkucat on March 23, 2017, 04:30:42 PM
In case anyone wants the history:
https://community.plus.net/t5/Everything-else/Plusnets-IP-s-Now-reveal-your-Location-to-close-to-home-Security/td-p/1422721

tl;dr just about sums it up.  :-X
Title: Re: I need a certain type of isp - Recommendations Please
Post by: Weaver on March 23, 2017, 05:43:57 PM
Apologies to the op for getting off topic, I didn't know what your _motivations_ / underlying concerns were.

Sincere apologies for repeating myself: A static IP is always a good thing for reliability's sake as I mentioned earlier. If you get line instability problems / disconnects and you are in the middle of doing something then it's obviously far better if you can just reconnect, carry on undisturbed and not lose all your transport connections unnecessarily. If your ISP charges you extra for one static IPv4 and they are not using CGNAT anyway then they are just a rubbish ISP. If you don't reconnect for ages then your IPv4 address is as good as static anyway, please don't think that it is going to change all the time. (But then I'm sure you already knew that.) And when you do reconnect, then there is absolutely no guarantee that the IPv4 address assignment(s) will change anyway, in fact if they are any good they will keep it the same for the sake of maximising reliability. It's an open question for users of ISP x, how often does your IPv4 adddress assignment (or range) actually change on a reconnect, just saying that it's dynamic doesn't do it. I hear you about the point about listing IPs’ geographical locations in databases - obviously it is more difficult to do this if they keep changing.

I can see that people who don't absolutely need it or don't know of the reliability advantage will think it's just a waste of a small amount of money. ISPs such as AA, and also Demon and Zen iirc don't charge extra for a static IP, at least for some of their deals, unless it's buried inside other costs. Only you know what matters to you though. When I was with Zen I had a free block of 8 static IPv4 addresses, zero IPv6. When I was with Demon I firstly had a single IPv4 address, foc, and then I had a reasonable-sized block of static IPv4 addresses, zero IPv6.

And again, I just don't want you to be misled: Don't think solely about IPv4, it's yesterday's technology, although traces of it will obviously be around for many years to come. If you pick an ISP that hands out dynamic IPv4 addresses then what is happening in respect of your IPv6 address assignment? It's essential that you don't end up with IPv4 assignments doing 'the right thing' for you, only to find that your static IPv6 /64 or whatever is being listed somewhere. So only looking at IPv4 assignment policies would be a bad mistake. Now I have been with Andrews and Arnold for a long time and have always had a big block of static global IPv4 addresses and a static IPv6 /48. A few years ago, AA started only giving out a single IPv4 address (static, globally routable) per site because of IPv4 address exhaustion. It's free. But you can have lots of IPv6 space. As well as your initial /48, which is far more than enough anyway, you can simply get more space in the form of additional /64s by just hitting a button.

Certainly Andrews and Arnold don't report me to geolocation databases. So you would be quite safe there. If you feel let down by PN then do move. I just didn't want you to be disappointed or misled in other respects. :-) If you have any questions about policies privacy ethics just ask them, they claim to have a "no bull___" policy. You can chat with them on IRC and there's a web chat thingy, plus twitter, email, SMS. The boss of AA, RevK, is very much fired up about privacy and human rights, and you can chat to him directly eg @TheRealRevK. This is a topic that he would be very keen to discuss. You can even go and see them and extract free beer from them at the AAISPissup in a week or so's time.
Title: Re: I need a certain type of isp - Recommendations Please
Post by: Weaver on March 23, 2017, 05:48:39 PM
Agreed with Burakkucat - I just looked at the length of that thread and despaired.
Title: Re: I need a certain type of isp - Recommendations Please
Post by: Weaver on March 23, 2017, 06:07:51 PM
I looked at the links to geolocation sites that were given in that community.plus.net thread.

* Tracemyip got the isp correct but the location of the ISP was wrong.

* The iplocation.net service is the first one I've ever seen that worked. I looked up the IPv4 address of my iPad and it reported it as Broadford. I’m not in Broadford but it's the correct telephone exchange and the correct post office.

* The whatismyipaddress service failed miserably on my IPv6 address, but it got the name of the ISP correct but the ISP's location was rubbish. When I selected an option "Update your IP location", it showed results from several different database providers, and one of them was spot on. Listed me as in Heasta and that was presumably from my IPv6 /64 too.

Absolutely no reason at all to believe that this is anything at all to do with ISPs. Looking up an ISP by IP address is easy to do using RIPE's database. But beyond that getting to an individual user's site is another thing entirely.

Google, et al are possibly far more important sources of data to the geolocation service providers for all I know. We discussed this in an earlier thread. Also many users are now mobile so it isn't necessarily a question of locating premises, it could be that someone wants to locate a particular box or human.
Title: Re: I need a certain type of isp - Recommendations Please
Post by: Weaver on March 23, 2017, 06:27:40 PM
I tried looking up the (static) IPv4 address of one of my IPads' 4G NICs and it came back as  Rickmansworth, god know where that came from. There is no support for the idea that my ISP sold someone that data.
Title: Re: I need a certain type of isp - Recommendations Please
Post by: sevenlayermuddle on March 23, 2017, 06:35:08 PM
My understanding is...

if anybody who connects to your WiFi has an Android phone, the likes of google will generally be able to pinpoint your IP as, when the phone connects to your WiFi, it will update them with IP address as well as any WiFis in range.   They know where every WiFi is from crowd-sourcing (and Street View) so it's easy to join the dots.  It will be available to anybody who pays Google enough dosh.

A lot of the online IP locators will be miles, or hundreds of miles, out.   But that is simply because they are basically gimics, and are not paying Google for up to date data.

Same goes for Apple and iPhones of course, without the Street View, but I believe they employ similar crowd-sourcing data, and I assume they sell it on.


Title: Re: I need a certain type of isp - Recommendations Please
Post by: burakkucat on March 23, 2017, 06:47:39 PM
Whenever I look at the output produced by such "utilities" for my own circuit it will get the correct ISP "family" but all locations are absolutely wrong . . . At best they are just approximations of the ISP/CP's POP.
Title: Re: I need a certain type of isp - Recommendations Please
Post by: sevenlayermuddle on March 23, 2017, 06:49:37 PM
Whenever I look at the output produced by such "utilities" for my own circuit it will get the correct ISP "family" but all locations are absolutely wrong . . . At best they are just approximations of the ISP/CP's POP.

Am I correct in thinking you have neither an Android or iPhone connected to your WiFi?
Title: Re: I need a certain type of isp - Recommendations Please
Post by: burakkucat on March 23, 2017, 06:59:09 PM
Am I correct in thinking you have neither an Android or iPhone connected to your WiFi?

You are absolutely correct. And for a long time I did not use WiFi access to my LAN.
Title: Re: I need a certain type of isp - Recommendations Please
Post by: Weaver on March 23, 2017, 07:05:54 PM
The OP wrote in the community.plus.net listing

> I logged in from an unknown location and that's because, it now show where I live. I don't want google knowing that much detail or any site.

"Logged in from an unknown location" possibly means that you either logged in to Google from a different IP address, or a different browser, or a cookie was not found in a browser or forty things. There's no evidence this is anything to do with ISPs and it's more to do with Google. What they mean by "location" is possibly not what we understand it to mean. Perhaps other kitizens could comment on Google’s use of terms here?

If you don't want Google knowing so much about you then you need to delete cookies and local storage and use the Private Mode browsing feature of your web browser. Google will track you using cookies, not using IP addresses, and after all you are probably using NAT anyway (since you are with PlusNet) so all the boxes in your house will have the same external IPv4 address anyway as far as Google is concerned, and they need to know which running instance of a web browser on which machine it is that they are dealing with.

If any of this is unclear, please do not hesitate to ask, you are not expected to be an expert. :-)

What kind of machine were you using when you made that community.plus.net posting?
Title: Re: I need a certain type of isp - Recommendations Please
Post by: insidejob on March 24, 2017, 01:31:42 AM
Weaver thanks but I dont want to repeat myself. I know exactly what it means when it says unknown location and explained this on the forum.

Plusnet have a new network and as you should be aware by now, it no longer connects via the hub in London or Sheffield. So google knows me from London, not near my home location, which is why google is saying that. The Issue is Plusnet and nothing will change that while I am with Plusnet.

I have checked Zen and they have static IP, so no good. AAISP is static IP. I don't really want IPV6 or do I need it. My equipment is IPV4 only.

I asked plusnet if I could buy multiple static IP's and use them as if they were dynamic but I cant and only available to business customers.

For the record I dont use,

WIFI
Android phone
Apple iPhone/ipad
Or am i dumb enough, to log into google and do any kind of searches.

It's ISP recommendations I am after for reasons most will know about. Anyone on BT infinity who has this issue of there home city or town showing? I would like to know thanks.
Title: Re: I need a certain type of isp - Recommendations Please
Post by: insidejob on March 24, 2017, 01:53:16 AM
My understanding is...

if anybody who connects to your WiFi has an Android phone, the likes of google will generally be able to pinpoint your IP as, when the phone connects to your WiFi, it will update them with IP address as well as any WiFis in range.   They know where every WiFi is from crowd-sourcing (and Street View) so it's easy to join the dots.  It will be available to anybody who pays Google enough dosh.

A lot of the online IP locators will be miles, or hundreds of miles, out.   But that is simply because they are basically gimics, and are not paying Google for up to date data.

Same goes for Apple and iPhones of course, without the Street View, but I believe they employ similar crowd-sourcing data, and I assume they sell it on.

The IP locators as you call them, are showing the location to your nearest BT Exchange in the City/Town you live in, or close to.
Previously with Plusnet it were only locating the main hub or data centres you were connected to, like London or Sheffield.

The difference between the old shared network and the new dedicated network plusnet are now using.
Title: Re: I need a certain type of isp - Recommendations Please
Post by: ejs on March 24, 2017, 05:18:10 AM
Except that all the end-user Plusnet connectivity is in London, anything using Sheffield as the location was probably just reading from the address of the ISP's head office.
Title: Re: I need a certain type of isp - Recommendations Please
Post by: roseway on March 24, 2017, 07:10:13 AM
I'm with Plusnet, and a lookup of my IP address does indeed reveal my nearest town (Ashford, Kent).
Have a look at https://www.iplocation.net/
Title: Re: I need a certain type of isp - Recommendations Please
Post by: Chrysalis on March 24, 2017, 07:39:20 AM
The site in the post here doesnt say Leicester but if I check my ip on whatsmyip.org then click more info about you it shows London.  It did used to show Leicester tho :p so I wasnt expecting the result London just now.
Title: Re: I need a certain type of isp - Recommendations Please
Post by: roseway on March 24, 2017, 07:58:54 AM
The only information I get from 'whatsmyip.org --> More information about you'  is the normal whois information, which puts me in California. The link I gave above tries a number of geolocation services, two of which return my nearest town correctly.
Title: Re: I need a certain type of isp - Recommendations Please
Post by: sevenlayermuddle on March 24, 2017, 08:13:24 AM
Clicking Eric's link, I see an assortment of results, all adrift by hundreds of miles.  Rochdale shows up twice however which is unsurprising, as I am with Zen.

But if I open Apple Maps on my iPad (no GPS or Cellular data) and click on the arrow it knows exactly where I am, to within a few feet.  I understand that works by looking up nearby WiFis that they can locate by other means.

In my dialogue with the Maps App it downloads data, so Apple also know my current IP even if it were dynamic (Zen are static), therefor Apple can locate my IP location to wihin a few feet.   I have no idea whether they would freely sell that data, but they are a commercial organisation, and the data is of value so I have always assumed they would.   Same scenario of course, for Google.

Frankly the whole privacy issue is something I just begrudgingly accept, as I think we all must.

Title: Re: I need a certain type of isp - Recommendations Please
Post by: sevenlayermuddle on March 24, 2017, 08:54:52 AM
I just tried Maps on the Mac, which uses wired LAN with WiFi normally disabled.  It asked me to turn on WiFi "to determine my location".    It then knew my location even though WiFi is not configured for any of SSIDs, so not actually connected - just 'on'.

So it would appear that particular scenario for Maps they are just using my own and my neigbours' WiFis, not using IP addresses.  But I stand by my assertion that if Apple wanted to collect IP location data via other WiFi devices then they could.  It would not guarantee accuracy as a dynamic IP address could suddenly change, but they would have a very high probability of being accurate.
Title: Re: I need a certain type of isp - Recommendations Please
Post by: d2d4j on March 24, 2017, 10:04:34 AM
Hi

I hope you don't mind but I'm with bt and the results from my mobile over wifi are

Wales and Braintree

Both of which are hundreds of miles away

I am at a loss why location is an issue, or perhaps I have missed the point sorry, but one experience as a family we had was, our daughter was involved in a serious car accident, and we did not know her location, but was able to identify her position, so I was able to be at the scene very quickly. It was a nasty accident and her mobile was thrown from the car but still powered on

I think my point been, there are pro and cons to tracking/location been known, and of course, if for whatever reason you do not want your location known, leave all connected devices at home, but then given we live in a connected world, your captured by other devices like cctv etc

Many thanks

John
Title: Re: I need a certain type of isp - Recommendations Please
Post by: gt94sss2 on March 24, 2017, 10:12:59 AM
Anyone on BT infinity who has this issue of there home city or town showing? I would like to know thanks.

BT Infinity works in a similar way to Plusnet - depending on the IP tool you use - you will either see the location of a localish exchange or one of their regional hubs (not necessarily local to you)
Title: Re: I need a certain type of isp - Recommendations Please
Post by: sevenlayermuddle on March 24, 2017, 10:22:03 AM
Fwiw, I have stopped worrying about this whole subjct to the extent that a fair number of people, even better half's Mum, are now shared by me as followers in iOS 'find my friends'.  That means they can get my GPS location any time they like.   Followers can even get automatic alerts when i arrive at map locations, or when I leave.

Does it bother me?   No, I quite like it.   Worst potential outcome was one day recently I'd spent all afternoon in a pub in town, chin wagging with old pals.   I gather that event was duly noted, even before I staggered home at dinner time. No secrets these days.  :D
Title: Re: I need a certain type of isp - Recommendations Please
Post by: Ronski on March 24, 2017, 01:27:16 PM
Lol, that last paragraph made me laugh  ;D

I use my Google timeline to fill out my time sheet,  as I anyways forget to note what time I get to and leave work. It it annoys me that the locations  are not always accurate though.  Some days I'll get a nice track of my route another it will be a straight line between home and work, or whatever.
Title: Re: I need a certain type of isp - Recommendations Please
Post by: tickmike on March 24, 2017, 02:37:05 PM
I'm with Plusnet, and a lookup of my IP address does indeed reveal my nearest town (Ashford, Kent).
Have a look at https://www.iplocation.net/
Using the above it says I am in Exeter = Wrong I am 211 mile further north.

I also use an iphone on my LAN WiFi. !.

My isp is Eclipse.
Title: Re: I need a certain type of isp - Recommendations Please
Post by: roseway on March 24, 2017, 02:49:29 PM
Quote
Using the above it says I am in Exeter = Wrong I am 211 mile further north.

iplocation.net sends your IP address to a number of geolocation services and reports the results from all of them. Did they all get it wrong in the same way?
Title: Re: I need a certain type of isp - Recommendations Please
Post by: tickmike on March 24, 2017, 03:53:33 PM
Yes.  :o :)
Title: Re: I need a certain type of isp - Recommendations Please
Post by: roseway on March 24, 2017, 04:07:36 PM
I think that says something about Eclipse then, which may be of interest to the original questioner.
Title: Re: I need a certain type of isp - Recommendations Please
Post by: ejs on March 24, 2017, 04:09:06 PM
But do Eclipse use dynamic IPs?
Title: Re: I need a certain type of isp - Recommendations Please
Post by: aesmith on March 24, 2017, 06:16:37 PM
I'm with Andrews and Arnold and none of the geolocation services have my address remotely correct.  None even put it in Scotland.  I particularly like the one that identifies my address as the "Kim Yin Take Away" in Longridge.   
Title: Re: I need a certain type of isp - Recommendations Please
Post by: insidejob on March 24, 2017, 08:56:23 PM
Tickmike I can tell you why it shows Exeter because Eclipse internet were based there.
http://business.kcom.com/contact-us

In the old days more so, your location would show the location of where your isp were situated, or where their head office were. Some isp's still work like that but far less than back then
Title: Re: I need a certain type of isp - Recommendations Please
Post by: insidejob on March 24, 2017, 09:04:06 PM
Except that all the end-user Plusnet connectivity is in London, anything using Sheffield as the location was probably just reading from the address of the ISP's head office.

Sheffield meaning if you live near or in that part of the UK. Some IP's many years ago did show me in Sheffield on occasions. Even though I dont live anywhere near the place but my dynamic IP's, for years, were all showing the London hub until recently.
Title: Re: I need a certain type of isp - Recommendations Please
Post by: insidejob on March 24, 2017, 09:16:07 PM
BT Infinity works in a similar way to Plusnet - depending on the IP tool you use - you will either see the location of a localish exchange or one of their regional hubs (not necessarily local to you)

That is what I would want it to show, one of the regional hubs. Not my local exchange in my local area like it now does.

Well Plusnet told me that I would have the same issue with BT isp as plusnet. So I wanted to find out if there were any truth in it. Even though BT own Plusnet, don't always mean BT retail works the same way.

Is it dynamic IP on BT infinity?
Title: Re: I need a certain type of isp - Recommendations Please
Post by: burakkucat on March 24, 2017, 09:19:22 PM
Is it dynamic IP on BT infinity?

Yes, it is.
Title: Re: I need a certain type of isp - Recommendations Please
Post by: highpriest on March 24, 2017, 10:40:32 PM
That's right, there is no option to get a static IP on BT Infinity.

The iplocation.net results were all hilariously inaccurate for me. I'm with Plusnet and two of them thought my ISP was BT. I have a static IP, FWIW.
Title: Re: I need a certain type of isp - Recommendations Please
Post by: d2d4j on March 24, 2017, 10:42:48 PM
Hi highpriest

I am bt Infiniti 2, with 5 static ip, access to a dynamic ip and we have clients who have Infiniti and Infiniti 2 with only 1 ip

Many thanks

John
Title: Re: I need a certain type of isp - Recommendations Please
Post by: highpriest on March 24, 2017, 10:56:02 PM
Is that a Business or Residential connection?
Title: Re: I need a certain type of isp - Recommendations Please
Post by: d2d4j on March 24, 2017, 10:59:36 PM
Hi

Sorry, business

However, I took the same test as everyone, and it was hundreds of miles out

That said, we use geo ip on our billing platforms, but we are not interested in location of ip exact, just the country it originates from, which does appear to be accurate, and is used to substantially reduce fraud and spam

Many thanks

John
Title: Re: I need a certain type of isp - Recommendations Please
Post by: Weaver on March 25, 2017, 12:59:56 AM
I suggest it is worth actually asking prospective ISPs what their _policy_ on privacy is. Otherwise we are just trying to guess it, and even if guesswork gives a favourable appearance today, it might not continue that way. So a stated policy would surely be a good thing, no?
Title: Re: I need a certain type of isp - Recommendations Please
Post by: ejs on March 25, 2017, 05:40:31 AM
@Weaver

It has nothing to do with the ISP's policy on privacy. It's to do with how they allocate IP addresses. If they assign specific ranges of IP addresses to specific areas, then geolocation companies will be able to work out the locations of the IP address ranges. Unless you think the ISP should have some sort of strategy to prevent geolocation companies working out the locations of the IP addresses.
Title: Re: I need a certain type of isp - Recommendations Please
Post by: Weaver on March 25, 2017, 08:21:36 AM
@ejs - I'm clearly not understanding the claimed mechanism. Is it suggested that some ISPs sell info to geolocation databases? Can't they just get info from the likes of Google anyway who get it via whatever techniques such as wireless LAN MAC addresses plus crowdsourcing?
Title: Re: I need a certain type of isp - Recommendations Please
Post by: aesmith on March 25, 2017, 08:30:08 AM
I think what's being theorised is that if the ISP assigns by using specific prefixes for specific areas, then once some information is learned about addresses within that prefix, it can be applied to others.  So in the Plusnet example if enough customer addresses have been pinpointed by SSID scanning, Android and Iphone location etc and are all found in the same area, now the geolocation services can assume any other address is within that area.
Title: Re: I need a certain type of isp - Recommendations Please
Post by: ejs on March 25, 2017, 08:50:13 AM
Indeed. And presumably the dynamic IP address is essential so that you can change IP address after logging out of Google, if you believe that will make it a little harder for Google to track everything you do.
Title: Re: I need a certain type of isp - Recommendations Please
Post by: Ronski on March 25, 2017, 03:16:16 PM
I'm with Plusnet, and a lookup of my IP address does indeed reveal my nearest town (Ashford, Kent).
Have a look at https://www.iplocation.net/

I've had the same static IP for years on Plusnet, and I really don't care if Google knows where I am, much preferring the benefits of it knowing.

So here's my results from the above link, remember my IP address has been known by Google and many others for years.

Caldicot, Wales
Clowne, Derbyshire
Apparently I'm also in the Thames 51.4964,-0.1224
Whitestone near Nuneaton
Leicester

I'm actually in Broadstairs, Kent


Title: Re: I need a certain type of isp - Recommendations Please
Post by: roseway on March 25, 2017, 03:57:01 PM
:)
Title: Re: I need a certain type of isp - Recommendations Please
Post by: insidejob on March 25, 2017, 11:36:00 PM
While many of you point out about mobiles and WIFI, while there is some truth to that it is not the main reason for this, otherwise I would of been located many years ago but that didn't happen. This also does not apply to me as I use a wired connection and no WIFI.

Plusnet allocate IP's to the exchange.

Others then learn that these IP's are only allocated to a certain exchange in a certain area and that is how it knows your geolocation, to the exchange, in your town or city. As you know it didn't work like this before march 2017 and showed the hub, in my case in London only.


This is what I found out about it and were said before.

Quote
Now I understand why my location is showing close to home and it is as a result, consequence of what plusnet have done that leads to this.

Plusnet have indeed moved from a shared network to a dedicated network. This is meant to improve connections etc but my issue is a consequence of this. Which PN didn’t foresee, so I am told.

Basically what is happening is, Plusnet are allocating individual exchanges, with groups of IP’s of about 120 of them at a time. This is a bit like allocating a static IP to the exchange, except they are not. Also you are much more likely to obtain the same IP, if you disconnect now than before or within the group of ranges allocated to that Exchange. PN is more sticky IP now as I have said before.

Under the old shared network, we all connected through shared data centres, via the hub, like London or Sheffield, if you lived in that area. Now it connects to the allocated IP’s in the BT exchange. Like a static IP to the exchange.

As a result of individual exchanges being allocated these IP ranges, means websites and IP checkers have worked out what location IP's have been allocated to, to these individual exchanges and they are not going to change with Plusnet ISP.

Now I stand by what I said and under the old network system, that because it only connected via the hub, that’s why, is showed London in my case all the time. Nothing to do with google but because of this new dedicated network, your IP’s are allocated from your local exchange and that’s how they know what city/town/village you are from. The IP's allocated to your local exchange are unlikely to be changed and won’t be allocated to any other BT exchange under PN. This may well apply to other ISP’s who use this dedicated system but if they are using a shared network, with other ISP’s, they will be like the old Plusnet network, showing a hub or other data centres.
Title: Re: I need a certain type of isp - Recommendations Please
Post by: insidejob on March 25, 2017, 11:57:37 PM
@Weaver

It has nothing to do with the ISP's policy on privacy. It's to do with how they allocate IP addresses. If they assign specific ranges of IP addresses to specific areas, then geolocation companies will be able to work out the locations of the IP address ranges. Unless you think the ISP should have some sort of strategy to prevent geolocation companies working out the locations of the IP addresses.


Yes, you get it. I do believe that ISP's should have some sort of option to mitigate this. I suggested a location On/Off switch in Plusnets user control panel, a bit like your geolocator on/off on your android phone.

Yes and before you say, just switching off that option on your android or Iphone, is no guarantee that you still can't be tracked. Now you know why I dont use phones like that or with GPS. ;) GPS is the most accurate geolocator to 99%.
Title: Re: I need a certain type of isp - Recommendations Please
Post by: insidejob on March 26, 2017, 12:01:29 AM
So back to finding an ISP with dynamic IP and who does not show your location so close to home, as explained in my above post.

What about Talk Talk, Vodaphone, Sky broadband?
Title: Re: I need a certain type of isp - Recommendations Please
Post by: sevenlayermuddle on March 26, 2017, 12:07:16 AM
@insidejob, may I clarify what form of location tracking it is that worries you..

A) tracking for advertising purposes, eg a popup inviting you to visit a nearby restaurant.

B) social tacking, eg your friends & family know where you are.

C) law enforcement, eg somebody thinks you are up to mischief.

D) ?

I'm not saying any of above are, or are not, worthy of debate.   Just curious.
Title: Re: I need a certain type of isp - Recommendations Please
Post by: insidejob on March 26, 2017, 12:16:18 AM
Pretty much all of it. It's to do with privacy and security and while things may not be 100%, I dont want to hand it to them on a plate and many like me, feel the same way.

I dont want to go much off topic and get into to much about that. All I want is an isp that don't do what Plusnet are doing, as from march 2017.

Also before anyone says and as said before, I clear my cookies, browser history, cache regularly and have done since dial up days. For privacy and security.
Title: Re: I need a certain type of isp - Recommendations Please
Post by: Weaver on March 26, 2017, 12:58:45 AM
I seriously think you would be fine with AA, because as far as I can see their address allocation fits your stated _underlying_ requirements. I wouldn't tell you wrong. They will at least be happy to tell you exactly how their systems work if you ask them and I think you would be able to trust them because there are actual individuals with names and the boss really really cares about privacy. You have little to lose by at least talking to them anyway. In fact they have been known to sort people out when they are not even customers. And there is also the option of talking to AA users not just staff on IRC - see the how-to for AA IRC at https://aa.net.uk/kb-irc.html

An odd idea: In fact if you went IPv6-only, not that that is necessarily possible for you, then the entire IPv4 internet would only ever see the address of AA's NAT64 protocol converter. That service is free and it works. So that is a perfect solution. We have at least one kitizen who is already using it. And in fact you can change your IP address whenever you want, you can simply hit a button and get another /64. In terms of websites' tracking you would also get the benefit of IPv6 'privacy addresses' depending on your o/s and config.

:-) I truly am just trying to give the maximum help I can because I do care about your goals and there may possibly be some things around that are new to you, I don't know. If you would like clarification on any of this stuff, then do please just shout.

Kitizens, am I correct in my thinking that apart from the BT Retail ISP (whatever they call themselves nowadays) just about any ISP would be better than PlusNet given the OP's concerns?
Title: Re: I need a certain type of isp - Recommendations Please
Post by: burakkucat on March 26, 2017, 02:11:32 AM
I can confirm that as a TalkTalk user, any of the "locator sites" just state the TT POP as my "location". Depending upon the IPv4 address I have been allocated, it might be Lowestoft, Cambridge, Bury (the Lancashire version), Guildford, Nottingham, etc, . . .

The one place the "locator sites" never mention is Bury St. Edmunds, Suffolk.
Title: Re: I need a certain type of isp - Recommendations Please
Post by: aesmith on March 26, 2017, 08:21:11 AM
I suggested a location On/Off switch in Plusnets user control panel
That can't be done.  Plusnet isn't providing the information, as has been mentioned many times.   The only thing that Plusnet could do is offer you a static IP.

Weaver's IPv6 idea has merit.
Title: Re: I need a certain type of isp - Recommendations Please
Post by: insidejob on March 27, 2017, 12:28:35 AM
Hi Weaver, thanks but looking at them prices, not so sure about AAISP. I really dont want a static IP especially IPV6. I would need new equipment that I really dont want to buy. I may not even be able to use the modem router setup I have now on IPV6 anyway.

OK thanks burakkucat. Talk talk may well be an option for me then. I would not mind if my IP's showed them locations. They are nowhere near my home place. Some of them location you posted, are even further away than the London hub.

I am aware of some bad press about talk talk but then Plusnet has it's fair share as well. Like now  :D

BTW can other members test this. I have noticed that if you click on google maps without doing any searching, it automatically locates your home city or Town. I don’t think you need to work out why and that's why I don’t like what plusnet have done.

Try it.
https://maps.google.com
Title: Re: I need a certain type of isp - Recommendations Please
Post by: burakkucat on March 27, 2017, 12:38:50 AM
Google maps will "automagically" start-up in the region at which I was last looking. So tonight it was centred on East Anglia.

I don't find that behaviour odd or unacceptable.
Title: Re: I need a certain type of isp - Recommendations Please
Post by: insidejob on March 27, 2017, 12:51:58 AM
No it don't, not for me. Clear your cookies and browser history then try. :)

I didn't search for anything on google maps, it's to do with my issue with plusnet.
Title: Re: I need a certain type of isp - Recommendations Please
Post by: burakkucat on March 27, 2017, 12:58:04 AM
The latest attempt by one of those "location detecting" sites is marginally correct in terms of the county, Suffolk, when it states "Ipswich".

I am not a user of any Plusnet service. So my examples will be invalid when compared with your experiences.
Title: Re: I need a certain type of isp - Recommendations Please
Post by: admin on March 27, 2017, 01:36:57 AM
Quote
I suggested a location On/Off switch in Plusnets user control panel, a bit like your geolocator on/off on your android phone.

Unfortunately the ISP has absolutely no control.   This is down to BTwholesale and will affect all IPSC, WBC and dedicated WBMC ISPs using dynamic IPs.
Just to clarify what is happening here, the IPs are dished out at the point of the BTWholesale bRAS.  The ISP has a pool of IPs that it makes available to BTw which dishes them out once the account has been authenticated.
Since BTw installed MSE BRAS, it brings the IP pool much nearer to the EU, so it could show up as in your next town.... or if you are really unlucky, you pick up an IP previously used by another person who doesnt mind constantly using google geolocates and in those instances they can sometimes be pretty close to home.  I picked up one once which was just a few streets away.

The unfortunate thing is that these IPs are sometimes a bit sticky so you can get stuck with one, or one in a similar range.

If you want to avoid the above, then get a static IP as those are dished out not from the local pool at the bRAS but by the CP.

As per SINET The options are

Quote
 BT Wholesale allocates the address from a dynamic pool supplied to BT Wholesale by the
WBC Customer;
 The CP returns the address in the RADIUS authentication response. This may be used to
allocate Static/Consistently Served IP Addresses or No NAT subnets to an end user

Alternatively look at using an LLU ISP whose RADIUS/BRAS may cover a wider area. 
Title: Re: I need a certain type of isp - Recommendations Please
Post by: jaydub on March 27, 2017, 09:10:59 AM
Worth trying Pulse8 who use the TalkTalk Business network.

Just done an IP Location Finder on my fixed IP address and none of then are very close to where I live:

Geolocation data from IP2Location (Product: DB6, updated on 2017-3-1)

IP Address   Country   Region   City
xxx.xxx.xxx.xxx   United Kingdom    England   Marble Arch
ISP   Organization   Latitude   Longitude
TalkTalk Broadband   Not Available   51.5141   -0.1582
Geolocation data from ipinfo.io (Product: API, real-time)

IP Address   Country   Region   City
xxx.xxx.xxx.xxx   United Kingdom    Lancashire   Clitheroe
ISP   Organization   Latitude   Longitude
Tiscali UK Limited   TalkTalk Broadband   53.8732   -2.3878
Geolocation data from EurekAPI (Product: API, real-time)

IP Address   Country   Region   City
xxx.xxx.xxx.xxx   United Kingdom    Redbridge   Ilford
ISP   Organization   Latitude   Longitude
Tiscali UK Limited   TalkTalk   51.5576   0.0728
Geolocation data from DB-IP (Product: Full, 2017-3-1)

IP Address   Country   Region   City
xxx.xxx.xxx.xxx   United Kingdom    England   Reading
ISP   Organization   Latitude   Longitude
TalkTalk   Tiscali UK Ltd   51.4543   -0.97813
Geolocation data from MaxMind (Product: GeoLiteCity, updated on 2017-3-7)

IP Address   Country   Region   City
xxx.xxx.xxx.xxx   United Kingdom    H9   London
ISP   Organization   Latitude   Longitude
Not Available   Not Available   51.5092   -0.095499999999987

Dynamic IPs are handed out as standard; I pay extra for a fixed IP.
Title: Re: I need a certain type of isp - Recommendations Please
Post by: tickmike on March 27, 2017, 02:26:08 PM
Tickmike I can tell you why it shows Exeter because Eclipse internet were based there.
http://business.kcom.com/contact-us

In the old days more so, your location would show the location of where your isp were situated, or where their head office were. Some isp's still work like that but far less than back then
Yes that is correct.
Title: Re: I need a certain type of isp - Recommendations Please
Post by: aesmith on March 27, 2017, 09:25:27 PM


BTW can other members test this. I have noticed that if you click on google maps without doing any searching, it automatically locates your home city or Town. I don’t think you need to work out why and that's why I don’t like what plusnet have done.

Try it.
https://maps.google.com

I clicked on that link, it took me to North America.
Title: Re: I need a certain type of isp - Recommendations Please
Post by: insidejob on March 27, 2017, 10:40:13 PM
Aesmith, well must be just me then with the issues I am having or any isp doing what plusnet are doing.
Title: Re: I need a certain type of isp - Recommendations Please
Post by: insidejob on March 27, 2017, 10:47:48 PM
Thanks for response admin. That is pretty much what I were saying, had been told but you went into more detail and explained it better. :)

The static IP would only be a temporary thing if I did that. I would need to buy new static IP's every few weeks if I want it to work like a dynamic IP. Not sure if there is any time limits on how long Plusnet allow you to keep a static IP before changing.

Probably better to use a VPN and that's more dynamic than a static IP but short term again.

So can I safely say that, BT infinity wont have the same issues as plusnet or go the same way?
I have not heard from any Sky fibre broadband customers, or Vodafone fibre customers yet?

Title: Re: I need a certain type of isp - Recommendations Please
Post by: jelv on March 27, 2017, 10:51:37 PM
I had a static IP from Plusnet for over 10 years. Not once in all that time did any geolocation get it right - or even close.
Title: Re: I need a certain type of isp - Recommendations Please
Post by: insidejob on March 27, 2017, 10:58:07 PM
Pulse8 line rental is quite good at £13 month but fibre is £39.90 for a 76mbps connection.
Pulse8 dont seem to do phone broadband bundles.

https://pulse8broadband.co.uk/fibreoptic-broadband
Title: Re: I need a certain type of isp - Recommendations Please
Post by: highpriest on March 27, 2017, 10:58:25 PM
Aesmith, well must be just me then with the issues I am having or any isp doing what plusnet are doing.

Google Maps took me to a map of the UK on a private browser session. When I'm logged in to my Google account, it correctly takes me to my home city. So that's Google doing it, not the GeoIP database.

Try downloading the GeoLite2 City database in CSV format and search for the first 2/3 octets of your IP address, identify your subnet and see what comes up in the postcode field.

http://dev.maxmind.com/geoip/geoip2/geolite2/
Title: Re: I need a certain type of isp - Recommendations Please
Post by: sevenlayermuddle on March 27, 2017, 11:20:32 PM
Forgetting about google maps, or Apple maps, imagine a different scenario...

You buy something online, maybe a book or a biro, or you pay a gas bill, whatever.  At electronic checkout, if they don't already have it, you supply full postal address for delivery.   They also have your IP, just like any other website, so they have a full street address for that IP.

Would they be able to sell on the combo of IP and street address?   Probably depends on hundreds of pages of small print T&C.   But most small print T&C tends to include clauses like 'we may share your details with carefully selected partners'. :D
Title: Re: I need a certain type of isp - Recommendations Please
Post by: insidejob on March 27, 2017, 11:21:54 PM
If you log into google, it tracks everything you do so will know where you are from your past history, while logged in. Something I dont do. Mine were without being logged in with all cookies and browser history clear. It's defo plusnet issue and for reason said by me and better from Admin.

I know where my IP is located to. It shows the postcode of my exchange, near where I live on them detailed IP locators. Still to close to home.
 
Title: Re: I need a certain type of isp - Recommendations Please
Post by: insidejob on March 27, 2017, 11:24:10 PM
sevenlayermuddle If that were 100% correct then my location, close to it, would of been known, shown many years ago. That were not the case until recently.
Title: Re: I need a certain type of isp - Recommendations Please
Post by: insidejob on March 27, 2017, 11:26:12 PM
Thanks Jelv good to know but I can't buy multiple static IP's and use them as dynamic, with my plusnet connection.
Title: Re: I need a certain type of isp - Recommendations Please
Post by: sevenlayermuddle on March 27, 2017, 11:29:50 PM
sevenlayermuddle If that were 100% correct then my location, close to it, would of been known, shown many years ago. That were not that case until recently.

It might have been known for years among the various spammers and orher nuisances.  The fact you only got wind of it recently would be irrelevant.
Title: Re: I need a certain type of isp - Recommendations Please
Post by: insidejob on March 27, 2017, 11:34:38 PM
I know because I have been checking the location of my IP's since I have been with Plusnet.

It always showed London hub but not anymore.
Title: Re: I need a certain type of isp - Recommendations Please
Post by: sevenlayermuddle on March 27, 2017, 11:37:40 PM
If you log into google, it tracks everything you do so will know where you are from your past history, while logged in. Something I dont do.

Without meaning to worry you any more, google track every interactin with their websites regardless of whether you are logged in.    Logging in allows you to see some of the stuff that google record, and creates the illusion that you can 'edit' that stuff.  But in reality they collect much more and there is nothing you can do to edit it.
Title: Re: I need a certain type of isp - Recommendations Please
Post by: insidejob on March 27, 2017, 11:42:05 PM
Ok but not like you say it. When you have dynamic IP's it makes that much harder as other people will of used the same IP, so makes it much harder to know who or where, the real person or location is.

Not including android or iphones.

Anyway have you got and ISP suggestion with dynamic IP and dont do what PN do?
Title: Re: I need a certain type of isp - Recommendations Please
Post by: sevenlayermuddle on March 27, 2017, 11:42:46 PM
I know because I have been checking the location of my IP's since I have been with Plusnet.

It always showed London hub but not anymore.

Yes, but that just shows that the data is a secret that is concealed from the IP location service.   It might still be known to many other commercial parties, willing to pay for it.   The fact they have paid for it, as opposed to public domain, would explain why they assist in keeping it as sectet.

Oh dear, did I say I didn't want to worry you more? :D
Title: Re: I need a certain type of isp - Recommendations Please
Post by: insidejob on March 27, 2017, 11:44:47 PM
You are not worrying me more. You know what you know and I know what I know. Simples  ;)
Title: Re: I need a certain type of isp - Recommendations Please
Post by: jaydub on March 28, 2017, 12:12:07 AM
Pulse8 line rental is quite good at £13 month but fibre is £39.90 for a 76mbps connection.
Pulse8 dont seem to do phone broadband bundles.

https://pulse8broadband.co.uk/fibreoptic-broadband

The phone line is included in fibre connections.  It's £39.90 all in.
Title: Re: I need a certain type of isp - Recommendations Please
Post by: jelv on March 28, 2017, 08:52:20 AM
Pulse8 dont seem to do phone broadband bundles.

Try working out how many calls you'd have to be making at Pulse8's rates before you'd reach the cost of a typical call package from other suppliers!
Title: Re: I need a certain type of isp - Recommendations Please
Post by: jaydub on March 28, 2017, 09:11:07 AM
It's a lot.

We don't use our home phone much, but we had an expensive invoice last month: 51p.  I think previous months we've struggled to get above 10p.
Title: Re: I need a certain type of isp - Recommendations Please
Post by: jelv on March 28, 2017, 09:53:08 AM
A lot of the calls we make are daytime (so that would mean an Anytime package - £8.99/month from BT). Our average Pulse8 calls are around £4 to £5 - i.e. total cost less than BT's line rental without any package or calls.
Title: Re: I need a certain type of isp - Recommendations Please
Post by: Ronski on March 29, 2017, 06:44:02 AM
tl;dr just about sums it up.  :-X

I just read that thread to, talk about going round in circles.......
Title: Re: I need a certain type of isp - Recommendations Please
Post by: insidejob on March 29, 2017, 01:35:42 PM
Ronski that's the paid trolls for you.


Well it's been far better on this forum than over on plusnet with more technical members who understand what my issue is. Now I am just after feedback from members who use other isp's and can let me know if they have there location showing close to home. Also if your isp offers dynamic IP.


Please refer to Admins post that does a top job of explaining this in detail and what I need or don't need.
Admins post here http://forum.kitz.co.uk/index.php/topic,19551.msg345162.html#msg345162


Static IP is not something I want, so not an option. Please remember I am talking about wired home broadband through your wired phone line. Not mobile, iphone, Android or WIFI broadband. So at the moment it's Talk talk, Maybe BT infinity and pulse8.


All I will say is, if you are like me and concerned about security and privacy, dont setup broadband with plusnet for reasons you can see and plusnet are not going to change it back or stop your locations showing near you, anytime soon.
Title: Re: I need a certain type of isp - Recommendations Please
Post by: jelv on March 29, 2017, 02:35:14 PM
I don't get this - if you don't do anything to tell systems where you are located on Plusnet's fixed IP they get it hopelessly wrong. My best guess at what was happening for me is that they used the location of others with IP addresses with the same first three parts as mine. At various times on the same IP address I have apparently been in Reading, Sheffield, Liverpool, London, I'm pretty sure there was one in Scotland as well as many other random locations. Not once did they say anywhere near Brighton where I did live or South West Wilts where I am now.

I'm now on a fixed IP with AAISP (same one since the end of November) and https://www.iplocation.net/ tells me I'm in Bracknell or Reading or Crowthorne (all around 60-70 miles out).

http://www.whatsmyip.org/more-info-about-you/ says I am in Aston-under-Lyne

http://www.ipdatabase.com says Reading.

On IPv6 whatismyipaddress points to somewhere near Skipton. On IPv4 it says Crowthorne.

Tracemyip says Richmond.

If I go in to Google maps using a different browser to normal it hasn't a clue where I am and defaults to showing the whole UK.

I think the key is that I don't have a smartphone or anything that has inbuilt GPS that has connected to the internet via my router.

Conclusion: if on a Plusnet or other fixed IP the geolocation sites know where you are there's only one person to blame: you!
Title: Re: I need a certain type of isp - Recommendations Please
Post by: gt94sss2 on March 29, 2017, 05:34:21 PM
Static IP is not something I want, so not an option. Please remember I am talking about wired home broadband through your wired phone line. Not mobile, iphone, Android or WIFI broadband. So at the moment it's Talk talk, Maybe BT infinity and pulse8.

As I have said before, BT Infinity won't be suitable for you as one can usually easily tell which part of the country you are in from the routing if nothing else.

Tbh, I think you are worrying to much about your choice of ISP - just use a VPN - so that no one 'knows. your real IP address
Title: Re: I need a certain type of isp - Recommendations Please
Post by: insidejob on March 29, 2017, 08:33:57 PM
Gt94sss2 Well BT retail broadband is quite expensive for what you get so may not be such a loss.

I called pulse8 today and they answer the phone within seconds of it ringing. Impressed :) Not like, due to high call volumes our current wait time is approaching over 30 minutes. Now what ISP does that remind you of ?  ;) Lol

Pulse8 is dynamic IP. Very dynamic from what I were told. You can buy static IP to. I started to say about my current issue and right away, said that wont be a problem with pulse8. They use talk talk business services. I were told that prices have come down and were £44 ish before. So good to see this isp reduce prices where it can. Pulse8 say they have good reputation and have very little leaving customers, as most want to stay with them due to good service.

The only sting really is, the £49 charge I need to pay to move to them. I have to pay that. I can use my existing setup and pulse8 provide login details for any routers.


I also called tentel who are based in Edinburgh. They use talk talk and BTW depends on where you live. Tental have dynamic IP as well. £1.50 for a static IP. Cheaper that plusnet.

According to this they have reduced there prices.
 http://www.ispreview.co.uk/index.php/2017/03/uk-isp-tentel-cuts-unlimited-fibre-broadband-phone-prices.html

Any tentel customers on here? What's you experiences?

Title: Re: I need a certain type of isp - Recommendations Please
Post by: Ronski on March 29, 2017, 10:19:06 PM


I also called tentel who are based in Edinburgh. They use talk talk and BTW depends on where you live. Tental have dynamic IP as well. £1.50 for a static IP. Cheaper that plusnet.

I should point out although irrelevant to you Tentel fixed IP charge is per month, Plusnet is a one off charge of £5, so who's is the cheapest?
Title: Re: I need a certain type of isp - Recommendations Please
Post by: insidejob on April 01, 2017, 08:38:18 PM
Well that's two ISP's I have ruled out.

First carrying on from newtronstars thread about Vodafone fibre. I called them about this VF router only thing. The adviser had to ask the technical team but confirmed that, Vodafone dont give out username and passwords for use with another router and Vodafone don't support third party routers at the moment.

So avoid Vodafone broadband, if you want to use your own router.


Called sky today and while pleasant enough and helpful, its the same situation as with Vodafone. Sky said, you have to use there supplied router and they dont give out router login details either.

Prices are a bit expensive for top speeds. I have been told it's a static IP across all broadband packs not just the top fibre pack.


So it's pulse8, tentel and maybe talktalk or a company who users the talktalk network.

I looked at origin broadband but to many bad reviews and even co-op broadband that use the talktalk network but again, to many bad reviews. :(

http://www.broadband.co.uk/broadband/providers/origin/reviews/
Title: Re: I need a certain type of isp - Recommendations Please
Post by: Chrysalis on April 01, 2017, 09:09:29 PM
dont worry about sky

its very easy to get sky router login details and use your own, you can see in my sig I use pfsense.
Title: Re: I need a certain type of isp - Recommendations Please
Post by: NewtronStar on April 02, 2017, 12:52:23 AM
Must admit EE was different this time around regarding user name and password for modem PPPoE details, the last time (18 months ago) they sent you a letter with the username & password before the modem arrived, now you need to call CS Support to see/get the password to use another modem.

Imagine if all ISP's started to deny access to customers PPPoE login details the third party modem industry would cease to exist in the UK
Title: Re: I need a certain type of isp - Recommendations Please
Post by: burakkucat on April 02, 2017, 01:24:49 AM
Imagine if all ISP's started to deny access to customers PPPoE login details . . .

I can think of one ISP/CP who would not do so . . . Andrews & Arnold Ltd (http://www.aaisp.net.uk/).
Title: Re: I need a certain type of isp - Recommendations Please
Post by: Weaver on April 02, 2017, 01:53:03 AM
Luckily this is never going to happen because business users will not stand for it, so it's totally unrealistic for that reason outside the home market. But I can quite understand ISPs not wanting to have to support kit that they know nothing about, which may have bugs in, and worse still duff modems that may cause all kinds of apparent line faults. The whole business of terminating the service boundary before a dodgy dsl modem is rather problematic. Of course having enough choice so that you can get the absolute best modem is important in a way. But I have a lot of sympathy with the idea of BT delivering FTTC with a bundled Huawei modem, since after all modems are a commodity item and they either work or don't, and may or may not be less performant, but apart from service definition things like MTU they are just protocol converters so there is an attraction to say that the service is presented as Ethernet (x protocols delivered in Ethernet). It is then up to BT to get together a superb modem in order to make the service look good. The Huawei did have a naughty bug in it as I recall, corrupting user data under certain special circumstances. But there is also an opportunity to get a stunningly high quality modem put together and to get huge economies of scale.

Someone like, say, AA, in contrast with BT, has to try and find really good modems from somewhere, and I doubt they can realistically commission their own. Perhaps they could, if they banded together with others eg ISPA (earlier thread about the 'dream modem').
Title: Re: I need a certain type of isp - Recommendations Please
Post by: aesmith on April 02, 2017, 04:07:53 PM
I think the bundled modem on FTTC was partly due to the service maturing before they wanted to trust third party kit.  It was the same with ADSL, it was quite a while before they offered wires-only.
Title: Re: I need a certain type of isp - Recommendations Please
Post by: burakkucat on April 02, 2017, 06:26:33 PM
I think the bundled modem on FTTC was partly due to the service maturing before they wanted to trust third party kit.

You are absolutely correct.

Quote
It was the same with ADSL, it was quite a while before they offered wires-only.

Agreed.
Title: Re: I need a certain type of isp - Recommendations Please
Post by: NewtronStar on April 02, 2017, 07:39:58 PM
But I have a lot of sympathy with the idea of BT delivering FTTC with a bundled Huawei modem, since after all modems are a commodity item and they either work or don't,

Sure Vodafone supplied a all in one Modem/Router which is Huawei HHG2500 guess what it didn't work very well on my line, I have no sympathy for any ISP who shoves out modems to customers which have not been tested thoroughly it's almost like the ISP are tying you into 18 months worth of beta testing
Title: Re: I need a certain type of isp - Recommendations Please
Post by: burakkucat on April 02, 2017, 09:35:32 PM
. . . it's almost like the ISP are tying you into 18 months worth of beta testing

It certainly seems like that, from your experience of Vodafone Connect.  :-X
Title: Re: I need a certain type of isp - Recommendations Please
Post by: NewtronStar on April 02, 2017, 10:12:44 PM
Guessing G.FAST will just be like the HG612 Openreach will supply the modem for a few years most likely locked down and a bright boy/girl will unlock it and away we go again then the third party modems arrive and then ISP's move in to fill the space in this never ending circle of tech.
Title: Re: I need a certain type of isp - Recommendations Please
Post by: burakkucat on April 02, 2017, 10:20:13 PM
Guessing G.FAST will just be like the HG612 Openreach will supply the modem for a few years most likely locked down . . .

Yes, I'm certain, that will be the case.
Title: Re: I need a certain type of isp - Recommendations Please
Post by: ejs on April 03, 2017, 04:10:02 PM
I think they're working on wires-only / self-install G.fast to be available much sooner than was the case with FTTC. One of the advantages of G.fast over full fibre is that it can be done without requiring the engineer home visit.
Title: Re: I need a certain type of isp - Recommendations Please
Post by: NewtronStar on April 03, 2017, 07:27:29 PM
Was just checking Sky Broadband forums for the first time they seem very strict on the use of a third party modem and you won't get any help even on the Sky forums it seems third party modems is a taboo subject  :o

http://helpforum.sky.com/t5/Fibre/Lose-connection-with-TP-Link-VR2600/m-p/2635893#M45672 (http://helpforum.sky.com/t5/Fibre/Lose-connection-with-TP-Link-VR2600/m-p/2635893#M45672)
Title: Re: I need a certain type of isp - Recommendations Please
Post by: insidejob on April 03, 2017, 10:32:37 PM
Weaver I don't thinks its good for any isp to lock down there broadband, fibre service to only use that company's router or modem, or both.

When I joined plusnet I were given a technicolour 582 router with the BT ECI modem. I didn't like the router or did I want to use it to much for other reasons. So after short use, I changed it and bought my own router that I have used for years with little issue.

The other things is and this has been suggested to me by plusnet in past but obvious. If you call support for speed issue or other fault, some isp's will ask you to try another router to rule out that the router is the cause of your issues. Now you can't do that if the isp won't give you connection password and username.

It is wrong for any isp to make you use only their routers or modems, if there are compatible third party modems or routers you can use.

Maybe ofcom should put a stop to this practice and make all isp's, give out users account password and login details so to use other routers/modems.
Title: Re: I need a certain type of isp - Recommendations Please
Post by: insidejob on April 03, 2017, 10:45:45 PM
So glad I didn't sign up to Sky Fibre for 18 months and Vodafone thankfully.

I wonder if EE is any better than BT, considering BT own them. EE are offering some money to pay for you to get out of your contract, if you sign up with them. It's 50 quid. https://broadband.ee.co.uk
Title: Re: I need a certain type of isp - Recommendations Please
Post by: highpriest on April 03, 2017, 11:02:43 PM
I wonder if EE is any better than BT, considering BT own them. EE are offering some money to pay for you to get out of your contract, if you sign up with them. It's 50 quid. https://broadband.ee.co.uk

A colleague of mine was with them and was generally happy with the service. I believe they freely give out login credentials so no problems there. They also don't do any traffic management, but annoyingly, block port 25 (to all non-EE SMTP servers) and the NetBIOS protocol.
Title: Re: I need a certain type of isp - Recommendations Please
Post by: Chrysalis on April 03, 2017, 11:06:04 PM
Was just checking Sky Broadband forums for the first time they seem very strict on the use of a third party modem and you won't get any help even on the Sky forums it seems third party modems is a taboo subject  :o

http://helpforum.sky.com/t5/Fibre/Lose-connection-with-TP-Link-VR2600/m-p/2635893#M45672 (http://helpforum.sky.com/t5/Fibre/Lose-connection-with-TP-Link-VR2600/m-p/2635893#M45672)
always been no support but you can still use 3rd party

Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk

Title: Re: I need a certain type of isp - Recommendations Please
Post by: NewtronStar on April 04, 2017, 12:57:37 AM
And EE supplied modem/router BrightBox2 is very stable and it's GUI has plenty of stuff to tinker with and a working Wan socket to bridge it to a third party modem
Title: Re: I need a certain type of isp - Recommendations Please
Post by: NewtronStar on April 04, 2017, 01:09:55 AM
Hmm port 25 wondering why it is blocked

http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/explainer/2008/07/the_spam_superhighway.html (http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/explainer/2008/07/the_spam_superhighway.html)
Title: Re: I need a certain type of isp - Recommendations Please
Post by: Chrysalis on April 04, 2017, 01:33:39 AM
some isps block it to prevent their networks been used as source of spam, you should be able to access email services using port 587 if 25 is blocked.
Title: Re: I need a certain type of isp - Recommendations Please
Post by: Weaver on April 04, 2017, 07:05:45 AM
Insidejob - I quite agree about it being wrong to lock you into using some crappy kit that doesn't fit your requirements. However for people who don't care, perhaps a lower-cost support deal would be an option. User-choice kit could mean more support calls if users use bad modems especially, if you leave out bad modems then you could perhaps say 'we won't give guidance on routers that we know nothing about'. Basically I am all for splitting support off as a separate cost, because some people need more support than others. That way those of us who are more savvy could save some money. Also those of us who are awkward would need to pay more if we want our choices to be covered. It's all about being explicit in what is and isn't covered by which types of support.

I doubt that ofcom would be of much help, they don't seem to be about protecting the consumer, but more about Thatcherite obsession with competition on price (but nothing else).
Title: Re: I need a certain type of isp - Recommendations Please
Post by: aesmith on April 04, 2017, 01:48:42 PM
The other things is and this has been suggested to me by plusnet in past but obvious. If you call support for speed issue or other fault, some isp's will ask you to try another router to rule out that the router is the cause of your issues. Now you can't do that if the isp won't give you connection password and username.
Essentially if they lock you down to the supplied router, the router becomes part of the service.  So if they wanted you to try another router, they'd have to send one out.
Title: Re: I need a certain type of isp - Recommendations Please
Post by: jaydub on April 04, 2017, 02:07:35 PM
Sky only do this if your existing router is in warranty.  When I left I had an intermittent issue which was almost certainly down to the router.  They wouldn't go beyond offering me a replacement at a reduced price.  The router limitation is one of the reasons I won't reconsider Sky.

Sent from my EVA-L09 using Tapatalk

Title: Re: I need a certain type of isp - Recommendations Please
Post by: insidejob on April 12, 2017, 07:11:42 PM
Thanks for the input from other members and the members who understood what my issue with Plusnet is. I have started a move to another isp but it's not the main ones I would of gone for. It will do as I want to get off plusnet.

There are other reasons for this and it were mostly cost reasons. I will get cash back and got a good deal, which will cover my leaving costs from plusnet and the activation charge.

I am hoping I wont have the same issues but will use this as a steeping stone, to one of the other isp's posted about on here. Need a bit more money first. lol

I decide not to go with EE in the end, as I found out on the EE forums that the IP's allocated to EE customers, are very sticky. Probably worse than plusnet. I may consider them though maybe in future, I will see.

I won't say which one for now and see what happens. :)

I must admit, I dont like this new system and seems to take ages. 14 days a bit too long to wait.
Title: Re: I need a certain type of isp - Recommendations Please
Post by: gt94sss2 on April 12, 2017, 08:10:28 PM

Who did you choose to go with in the end? I watched this podcast (https://twit.tv/shows/know-how/episodes/301?autostart=false) the other day and thought of this thread then!
Title: Re: I need a certain type of isp - Recommendations Please
Post by: insidejob on May 01, 2017, 01:04:29 AM
Who did I choose to go with? Well dont get mad but they own EE ;)

I did this for costs reasons and stand to get about £225 back which pays for the connection fees and plusnet leaving fees, which BTW I were over charged but they have, are sorting that out by giving me refund of some of it. Plusnet are keeping my account open for about 30days after leaving at least until my last bill is paid DD and my refund back to my account.

On first connecting, my speeds were good and at around 49mbps. It's now at 45mbps :(. I have had some major issues until about 20 min ago, trying to get my own router setup and Working for some days, trying on and off.

I took off the supplied router and set my own up, just as I did with plusnet. Problem is user name and password. I were told so many ways and believe that this may of had something to do with it. It's not the same way as plusnet and were a pain. It should of worked just like it did on plusnet but would just not work. I tried again this evening and although It showed me allocated an IP, it would just not load any webpages. I keep getting the BT wholesale holding page or page can not be displayed. I dont know if it were to do with the DHCP lease as I had to change it to max. I never had to touch these settings in my router on plusnet.

I were just about to get my old plusnet router out and try that, as I were at my wits end but then it started working on booting into my other drive OS. Its almost like someone switched a switch to on, so it would work. I have heard some other people having issues  this though.

I will be looking to move after contract to pulse 8 hopefully but that depends on what happens in a year, as other things may change.
Title: Re: I need a certain type of isp - Recommendations Please
Post by: burakkucat on May 01, 2017, 01:12:33 AM
Who did I choose to go with? Well dont get mad but they own EE ;)

Ah, yes. I understand. That little company which owns both EE and Plusnet.  :D
Title: Re: I need a certain type of isp - Recommendations Please
Post by: insidejob on May 01, 2017, 01:18:13 AM
That's right burakkucat you guessed it.  ;D
Title: Re: I need a certain type of isp - Recommendations Please
Post by: Delta4orce on May 02, 2017, 11:37:07 PM
If you don't want anyone to know where you are geographically, you have more to worry about from services bundled in with your operating system or with web browsers that report location based on Wireless LAN MAC addresses. Your iPhone or google / Facebook apps are pretty keen on identifying your location by a whole range of methods and this has nothing to do with a choice of ISP.

Fromt that link to the plusnet forum you're wasting your time with that explantion Weaver as he refuses to accept that mobiles and browsers have anything to do with geolocation tracking.

Well it's been far better on this forum than over on plusnet with more technical members who understand what my issue is. Now I am just after feedback from members who use other isp's and can let me know if they have there location showing close to home.

To be fair to the guys on the plusnet forum they seem to have a good understanding of the problem you were facing and how it worked. Its you who appears not to understand how you're being tracked by external parties.

Anyway at least you've moved away to another ISP..
Title: Re: I need a certain type of isp - Recommendations Please
Post by: jelv on May 03, 2017, 09:10:30 AM
He has received a suggestion on the Plusnet forums which would absolutely 100% guarantee no geo-location list would have his IP: https://community.plus.net/t5/General-Chat/Recommend-a-fibre-ISP-with-dynamic-IP/m-p/1436283#M223855
Title: Re: I need a certain type of isp - Recommendations Please
Post by: Delta4orce on May 03, 2017, 09:18:47 AM
 ;D
Title: Re: I need a certain type of isp - Recommendations Please
Post by: 4candles on May 03, 2017, 10:57:41 AM
 :lol:
Title: Re: I need a certain type of isp - Recommendations Please
Post by: Chrysalis on May 03, 2017, 12:02:49 PM
Jelv yeah.

On android, google I know actually will periodically phone home on its location service to report location of active ip addresses, they then put this into a database which is shared with commercial partners.

This occurs even if location is disabled in the phone settings, it will honour the GPS setting tho, so if GPS is disabled it wont use that for tracking just wifi and cell towers.

The location setting is basically just a permission master switch for apps to use the location API.
Title: Re: I need a certain type of isp - Recommendations Please
Post by: insidejob on May 04, 2017, 01:07:42 AM
I see some of the trolls from PN forum are bringing up the same old same old rubbish, I have been over and over again. I am not going to repeat myself, especially about smart phones.

I am glad I left PN as the service were getting worse and no reply to tickets for weeks. Utter disgrace. Also Plusnet have put there prices up once again but then I got a better deal and more out of it, than if I had stayed with plusnet.

While not perfect, I have had far better advisers where I am now and more polite,helpful. Just the Indian call centres that are still flaming useless. That will be less of a problem soon, as they are going. ;)

This is a steping stone isp, or that's what the plan is but we will see.

Oh and another thing. I got myself a decent VPN before I left PN. ;D  :cool:

Just dont use a Romanian one, as kitz blocks Romanian spammers. ;)
Title: Re: I need a certain type of isp - Recommendations Please
Post by: gt94sss2 on May 04, 2017, 01:43:42 AM
Who did I choose to go with? Well dont get mad but they own EE ;)

<cough>They also own Plusnet</cough>

Not that I blame you - I use the same ISP - and they tend to be very reliable with decent introductory and reasonable retention deals.

You are of course dealing with a mass market ISP so won't necessarily get the same specialist support as easily as you might from a smaller ISP though customers on BT's own forums are quite knowledgeable and the moderators there can help resolve issues that their normal support struggles with.

Surprised you had a problem authenticating with your own modem though - that should have been very simple to do.
Title: Re: I need a certain type of isp - Recommendations Please
Post by: Delta4orce on May 05, 2017, 12:45:40 AM
I see some of the trolls from PN forum are bringing up the same old same old rubbish, I have been over and over again. I am not going to repeat myself, especially about smart phones.

Well after the way you behaved over on the PN forum (completely ignoring advice about how locations are worked out - and then returning to tell those same people what they had told you) are you really surprised that people were watching this forum to see how long it took you to post here?

You tried to hold the PN board to ransom - help me or i'm going to kitz. Kinda silly really - that kinda attitude always does a great job of winding people up.
Title: Re: I need a certain type of isp - Recommendations Please
Post by: insidejob on May 05, 2017, 01:03:33 AM
"After the way I behaved" I dont think so! Try looking in the mirror next time.

I were trolled by the many plusnet shills. I happen to get far more detail from speaking to a manager on the phone in the end but you lot just kept saying the same things.

Plusnet forums are not there to help customers or be transparent. The services and support from plusnet, even on the forum is crap!

I came over here because it's a better forum, with more knowledgeable and better understanding members. Kitz could probably knock cats off, off bob P. ;D I know what I know and that's all that matters. If you don't like that, that is not my problem. Believe everything PN tells you. I am still better off where I am now anyway, even if it's until the end of my contract but we will see.

If you registered on here to troll me, then you have wasted your time.  :police:
Title: Re: I need a certain type of isp - Recommendations Please
Post by: insidejob on May 05, 2017, 01:12:25 AM
Hi gt94sss2. Yes were a good deal for me and save some cash compared to plusnet.

I dont know why I had issues with my own setup. Maybe their equipment is more finicky. I will try at some point the hub3 and then see what happens, if I try and put my own router back on. See if I get the same issue or if connects OK, which it should anyway.

Title: Re: I need a certain type of isp - Recommendations Please
Post by: jelv on May 05, 2017, 02:29:51 PM
Kitz could probably knock cats off, off bob P. ;D
For anyone that is aware of Bob P's ability that comment has just proved something - and it doesn't reflect well on you! He and Dave (who we don't see so often) are without doubt the most reliable sources of technical information on all things Plusnet!

In fact it would not surprise me if a lot of the information Kitz has garnered over the years came from Bob P.
Title: Re: I need a certain type of isp - Recommendations Please
Post by: NewtronStar on May 05, 2017, 07:15:21 PM
Could have jumped onto Plusnet ISP & Phone 3 times in the last year but the cost is just to much for what you get, for example for me it would need to be unlimited 40/10 and anytime International call plans caller ID and EE do all this for much less than Plusnet and don't even know if there Upstream is 10Mbps or just 2Mbps

OK you don't have an active CS support forum with EE but I always use the phone to call Customer Services if a issue surfaces which is unlikely  :fingers: 
Title: Re: I need a certain type of isp - Recommendations Please
Post by: burakkucat on May 05, 2017, 07:21:59 PM
. . . Plusnet and don't even know if there Upstream is 10Mbps or just 2Mbps

It is the 40/2 Mbps product for new customers.  :(
Title: Re: I need a certain type of isp - Recommendations Please
Post by: NewtronStar on May 05, 2017, 07:49:28 PM
Strange that it does not clearly show it's only 2Mbps Upload burakkucat, on their purchase now Web page and ran though all the options and can't find it.
Title: Re: I need a certain type of isp - Recommendations Please
Post by: gt94sss2 on May 05, 2017, 08:42:04 PM
As you go through their order process, it says:

Quote
Great news!
All our broadband packages are available in your area.

Postcode: XXXX XXXX
This means you can get our superfast Unlimited Fibre Extra Broadband, with an estimated download speed of 59 - 80Mb, and an estimated upload speed of 20Mb.

If you choose our Unlimited Fibre Broadband, you could get an estimated download speed of 40Mb, and an estimated upload speed of 2Mb.

and hidden under the 'Here's the legal bit' on the public page which lists their different packages it says:

Quote
Fibre Broadband

† Fibre broadband speed is described as 'up to' because your actual speeds will vary. We'll give you the best speed available on your line, with up to 76Mb download speed and 19Mb upload speeds on Unlimited Fibre Extra, and up to 38Mb download speed and 1.9Mb upload speeds on Unlimited Fibre. This is dependent on your location, phone line, home wiring and time of day. We'll provide you with a speed estimate when you check availability of our products.
Title: Re: I need a certain type of isp - Recommendations Please
Post by: Delta4orce on May 07, 2017, 10:35:46 AM
"After the way I behaved" I dont think so! Try looking in the mirror next time.

Multiple people there told you how your location was being worked out and published. Instead you chose to blame and accuse plusnet of deliberately publishing it.

Now while its true that they are using pools of IP addresses for particular locations, they are not deliberately publishing your IP address. But despite the explanations from multiple members you chose to ignore that and then go round insulting people.

I happen to get far more detail from speaking to a manager on the phone in the end but you lot just kept saying the same things.

I seem to recall that the manager actually told you what you had already been told - you just refused to believe it until that point and THEN you decided to tell the plusnet members how it worked as if you were educating them!

Look!:

(http://s22.postimg.org/4uhhjvq29/screenshot_416.jpg)

(http://s22.postimg.org/f5tucjhrl/screenshot_417.jpg)

(http://s22.postimg.org/rlqk6ab3l/screenshot_418.jpg)

(http://s22.postimg.org/h06oua4s1/screenshot_419.jpg)

(http://s22.postimg.org/md04m5i29/screenshot_420.jpg)

(and so you went with BT - almost as if you're deliberately trying to find yourself more hassle)

and then after all of that.. (including other replies there that i've not bothered with) you then returned to educate those who had already told you how it worked - "now that you understand":

(http://s22.postimg.org/o631ah38x/screenshot_421.jpg)


Plusnet forums are not there to help customers or be transparent. The services and support from plusnet, even on the forum is crap!

Thats a matter of perspective. You're the one harping on about state control.. yet plusnet will let you slag them off on their own forums - hows that for freedom of speech?. As for support.. well if you're the type of person who jumps up and down screaming "I want it now" then it's not for you i'll agree. Nobody likes "me me me" types. It must be said though that they're well known for being utterly useless with their phone waiting times.

I came over here because it's a better forum

You had to wait for it all to die down on the plusnet forum though didn't you!!!

Believe everything PN tells you.

On the contrary, i've been burnt by that ISP in the past myself - people on the phones there are idiots.. and i see thats been pointed out to you on their forum too!

If you registered on here to troll me, then you have wasted your time.  :police:

Sorry but you're not the most important person in my life although i will admit this particular thread is interesting.
Title: Re: I need a certain type of isp - Recommendations Please
Post by: roseway on May 07, 2017, 11:15:57 AM
I think it's time to draw a line under this thread, as it's become a slanging match.
Title: Re: I need a certain type of isp - Recommendations Please
Post by: insidejob on May 07, 2017, 01:32:34 PM
Hi Roseway. I’m afraid that’s what happens when you have the plusnet trolls invade your forum to attack there own or ex customers. It really is an inside job. ;)

I am not going to respond to the trolls post above anyway as I have said all I need to before and the troll on here has just twisted once again, what I didn’t say.

My post I quoted and the post by admin on here is what it’s all about and correct but admin did a better job at explaining it than me.

Most of the members on here understand what my issue were anyway but I am so glad I left plusnet, as it's far worse than just ip locations showing you close to home.

Once I get my refund I am owed, then that will be it with Plusnet. Thank god. :drink:
Just need to leave some reviews when I get time.   :)


Anyway yes, lets change the subject.  ;D

Will there be any decent isp’s left in 20 years time or will they all be gobbled up?
Title: Re: I need a certain type of isp - Recommendations Please
Post by: burakkucat on May 07, 2017, 04:40:40 PM
Will there be any decent isp’s left in 20 years time or will they all be gobbled up?

My feeling is that there will always be a specialist type of ISP/CP, such as Andrews & Arnold (http://www.aaisp.net.uk/).