Kitz Forum

Broadband Related => Broadband Technology => Topic started by: PhilipD on February 07, 2017, 10:47:57 AM

Title: ECI connected customers, no 3db profile
Post by: PhilipD on February 07, 2017, 10:47:57 AM
Hi

Over at ISPreview  (http://www.ispreview.co.uk/index.php/2017/02/bt-update-uk-fttp-sogea-3db-21cn-wbc-broadband-plans.html)they've said the 3db VDSL profile will be excluded from ECI cabinets, so that is no G.INP (although that may still happen but breath not holding) and now no 3db profile to add to the negatives of being on ECI kit.  Presumably we can say vectoring if it happens will only be Huawei cabinets also.

At least Long Reach G.FastNotSoFast hangs from the PCP so ECI cabinets don't make a difference in deployment, unless of course they find ECI cabinets collapse and fall over on hearing the G.Fast signal as crosstalk and refuse to let anyone sync at all.

Nice one BT Openreach at the choice of ECI equipment.

Regards

Phil



Title: Re: ECI connected customers, no 3db profile
Post by: skyeci on February 07, 2017, 10:52:46 AM
Its possible G.INP may return from April 2017 if the testing went well  which was supposed to have been oct-dec 2016. I would guess if G.INP did work then perhaps we would see the new profiles..



Roll on April in hope...
Title: Re: ECI connected customers, no 3db profile
Post by: Bowdon on February 07, 2017, 11:35:35 AM
I think our only hope for any kind of parity will be when G.fast nodes go up. It'll be huawei and nokia who make the nodes.

I just had a thought.. If the fibre signal passes through the cabinet to the G.fast node, then won't G.fast be controlling the signal quality?

I guess we need to know what the node actually does to see if it can be our saviour.
Title: Re: ECI connected customers, no 3db profile
Post by: blue166 on February 07, 2017, 01:25:59 PM
So, is G.Fast actually going to work with ECI cabs?

I am starting to get a little annoyed with what I am reading about ECI equipment.
Title: Re: ECI connected customers, no 3db profile
Post by: ktz392837 on February 07, 2017, 01:46:59 PM
Yea I saw the same article.

<moan>

I can understand that distance to exchange and distance to cab is under control of the customer they can always move house but it was BTs decision to use ECI cabinets so in my opinion they should swap to cabs that work and give same performance as the Huaweis.

I used to have 90/30 connection (possibly more so was enjoying 80/20 for 18months+) but now down to 55/15 due to crosstalk.

Every time I sign a new contract I have to accept a lower estimated speed as BT keep lowering the estimate of the line so it makes it next to impossible for them to accept a fault as they use the ever dropping speed estimate instead of the initial estimate from several years back.

My line would more than likely be capable of 80/20 on a Huawei cab using Ginp and certainly with 3db.

BT should be using all their research time in fixing the ECI cabs before any further enhancements are applied to the Huaweis.

</moan>
Title: Re: ECI connected customers, no 3db profile
Post by: PhilipD on February 07, 2017, 02:06:02 PM
Hi

So, is G.Fast actually going to work with ECI cabs?

I am starting to get a little annoyed with what I am reading about ECI equipment.

G.Fast will be at the PCP and is completely new equipment, so should be unaffected by the cabinet that serves VDSL. 

G.Fast currently is being tested not using the same frequencies as VDSL, it skips the lower frequencies of VDSL and uses the ones higher up, of course this makes G.Fast more G.NotSoFast because it becomes even more line length sensitive, and could lead to the situation where someone swaps from VDSL to G.Fast and ends up with no speed increase or indeed a slower speed than VDSL they upgraded from.  Presumably BT will ensure their database and ordering systems stop those customers that wouldn't benefit from G.Fast from ordering. Because there are no cross over in frequencies then the cabinet even if ECI shouldn't really be affected by G.Fast.

However, they are currently looking at changing G.NotSoFast to use the same VDSL frequencies, this will give rise to a lot of extra cross talk from a different technology which will impact VDSL customers speeds.  Hopefully ECI cabinets will not be too badly affected but we might have the situation where Huawei cabinets can be tweaked and have firmware updated to make them less susceptible to interoperability issues caused by cross-talk of G.Fast borrowing the same frequencies, with ECI cabinets failing to be update-able in the same way or as tolerant of the cross-talk.  If this happens we may get the situation where G.Fast can't use the lower VDSL frequencies where the PCP is partnered with an ECI cabinet, meaning slower G.Fast speeds where an ECI cab sits nearby.

Regards

Phil
Title: Re: ECI connected customers, no 3db profile
Post by: j0hn on February 07, 2017, 03:45:34 PM
Presumably we can say vectoring if it happens will only be Huawei cabinets also.
That's not presumably, that's a definite. Huawei cabinets can be upgraded to use system level vectoring. The ECI M41's contain VTU-C64 line cards which can only support vectoring at a line card level.
It's a terribly inefficient method of vectoring. It would require every ECI cabinet to be rearranged so that each individual bundle goes to the same line card. ECI's will never have vectoring.
So, is G.Fast actually going to work with ECI cabs?
Nothing to do with the FTTC cab. G.Fast isn't connected to the fibre cab, but to the PCP.
G.Fast will work from PCP's with Huawei, ECI, mix of both, or no FTTC cab at all.
Its possible G.INP may return from April 2017 if the testing went well  which was supposed to have been oct-dec 2016. I would guess if G.INP did work then perhaps we would see the new profiles..
Testing must have went well as it's planned for March now.
If that goes to plan they may look at the (x)dB SNRM target for ECI cabinets.

Naming it a 3dB trial is a little misleading as no line will go straight to 3dB. From the trial we've seen it goes from the current 6dB, to 5dB, to 4dB, then 3dB.
Title: Re: ECI connected customers, no 3db profile
Post by: Bowdon on February 07, 2017, 04:11:14 PM
I'm trying to get this straight in my head.

Is the PCP the older looking cabinet located near to the fibre cabinet?

If this is the case then is it;

1. PCP -> G.fast node -> Fibre cabinet -> customer OR

2. PCP -> G.fast node -> customer ?
Title: Re: ECI connected customers, no 3db profile
Post by: skyeci on February 07, 2017, 04:30:59 PM
That's not presumably, that's a definite. Huawei cabinets can be upgraded to use system level vectoring. The ECI M41's contain VTU-C64 line cards which can only support vectoring at a line card level.
It's a terribly inefficient method of vectoring. It would require every ECI cabinet to be rearranged so that each individual bundle goes to the same line card. ECI's will never have vectoring.Nothing to do with the FTTC cab. G.Fast isn't connected to the fibre cab, but to the PCP.
G.Fast will work from PCP's with Huawei, ECI, mix of both, or no FTTC cab at all.Testing must have went well as it's planned for March now.
If that goes to plan they may look at the (x)dB SNRM target for ECI cabinets.

Naming it a 3dB trial is a little misleading as no line will go straight to 3dB. From the trial we've seen it goes from the current 6dB, to 5dB, to 4dB, then 3dB.


Can you post where the march info was please. I posted OR comments which did indicate april. I am all for March if thats the case but interested where you found this.

Thanks
Title: Re: ECI connected customers, no 3db profile
Post by: j0hn on February 07, 2017, 05:02:38 PM
here (http://forums.thinkbroadband.com/fibre/t/4528034-re-dsl-checker-gfast.html). AndyHCZ is a reliable source.
I've read it on multiple sources.
Title: Re: ECI connected customers, no 3db profile
Post by: Chrysalis on February 07, 2017, 05:42:33 PM
3db I expect is dependent on working g.inp hence no ECI for now on the 3db DRM.  But if the g.inp rollout this spring is successful then ECI should get the 3db profiles after.
Title: Re: ECI connected customers, no 3db profile
Post by: skyeci on February 07, 2017, 05:50:10 PM
here (http://forums.thinkbroadband.com/fibre/t/4528034-re-dsl-checker-gfast.html). AndyHCZ is a reliable source.
I've read it on multiple sources.

Thanks, if it is that great but still not from OR directly so fingers crossed.. OR official update as I posted some months back did say april. Hope its wrong..
Title: Re: ECI connected customers, no 3db profile
Post by: j0hn on February 07, 2017, 06:02:08 PM
Thanks, if it is that great but still not from OR directly so fingers crossed.. OR official update as I posted some months back did say april. Hope its wrong..
He works for OpenReach I believe. The 3dB profile and further DLM changes also happening in March so makes sense. That last update was also from back in August so a change by a couple weeks wouldn't be a surprise.
Title: Re: ECI connected customers, no 3db profile
Post by: Bowdon on February 07, 2017, 06:26:37 PM
here (http://forums.thinkbroadband.com/fibre/t/4528034-re-dsl-checker-gfast.html). AndyHCZ is a reliable source.
I've read it on multiple sources.

I wonder how this will work with people using unlocked HG612 modems?

I noticed he said that a modem firmware would be released. But on the unlocked modems we arent upgrading the firmware. I wonder it'll still work for us or am I going to have to buy home hub?
Title: Re: ECI connected customers, no 3db profile
Post by: ejs on February 07, 2017, 06:42:17 PM
A firmware update for the ECI modems, not applicable or necessary for the Huawei HG612 modems.

Other modem/routers using the Lantiq chipset generally seemed to already have much newer Lantiq firmware than what was in the ECI modems, although we don't have much information on what's actually within the ECI modem firmware. From June 2015 (http://forum.kitz.co.uk/index.php?topic=15632.0), the ECI modem had 05.06.07.05.01.06. Third-party Lantiq devices are already using 5.7.x.x.x.x.
Title: Re: ECI connected customers, no 3db profile
Post by: Ronski on February 07, 2017, 07:01:57 PM
here (http://forums.thinkbroadband.com/fibre/t/4528034-re-dsl-checker-gfast.html). AndyHCZ is a reliable source.
I've read it on multiple sources.

But AndyHCZ clearly states that

Quote
The modems should be updated with the new firmware (although CP wires-only need to ensure their customers have updated modems). The ECI firmware update and retransmission are due to be released next month (I would guess the same time as the new DLM algorithm is introduced).

So who's right, ISP Review or Andy???

Or are ECI cab's getting G.INP next month, and not the lower margins?
Title: Re: ECI connected customers, no 3db profile
Post by: skyeci on February 07, 2017, 07:10:32 PM
As a reminder....

summary of the bulletin recently released and this was the response I had today.

It confirms that Openreach and ECI have now identified the cause of the problems of G.INP on the ECI platform and a set of fixes are currently in development.
 
The fixes include the need for updated firmware for certain Modem Chipsets which impact both the Openreach Modem and the modem component of certain CP wires only Routers as well as software update for the ECI equipment.
 
This software will be tested by Openreach during Q3 (Oct-Dec) with deployment likely to commence, in consultation with the Service Provider community around April 2017.
Title: Re: ECI connected customers, no 3db profile
Post by: ejs on February 07, 2017, 07:38:02 PM
What are the chances that the new ECI cabinet firmware is going to be that d086 version with the poor upload speeds?
Title: Re: ECI connected customers, no 3db profile
Post by: j0hn on February 07, 2017, 08:09:23 PM
As a reminder....

summary of the bulletin recently released and this was the response I had today.

It confirms that Openreach and ECI have now identified the cause of the problems of G.INP on the ECI platform and a set of fixes are currently in development.
 
The fixes include the need for updated firmware for certain Modem Chipsets which impact both the Openreach Modem and the modem component of certain CP wires only Routers as well as software update for the ECI equipment.
 
This software will be tested by Openreach during Q3 (Oct-Dec) with deployment likely to commence, in consultation with the Service Provider community around April 2017.
What's your point though? that was over 6 months ago. OR have released another 2 or 3 updates to CP's since the August post. Plans can change.
What are the chances that the new ECI cabinet firmware is going to be that d086 version with the poor upload speeds?
That would be horrible. I think unlikely though as that firmware was seen way back on August 2nd (http://forum.kitz.co.uk/index.php/topic,18140.msg329379.html#msg329379)
Title: Re: ECI connected customers, no 3db profile
Post by: parkdale on February 19, 2017, 10:19:24 AM
Hi All, thought I would add this to the thread,  Ever since my line went back to fast and no interleaving, I've noticed that the ECI cab keeps trying to drag my SNR down past 4db with the result that I lose sync, line resets, I then have to reset my Fritzbox to get my speed back up >:( obviously this may throw me back to interleaving).
Yesterday I picked up the phone to ring my mate and I noticed a lot of noise on the line, including 17070/2 test. He said all quite on his end of the phone line. Also had over a 1000 crc's a minute before event. Unfortunately I did not capture the said conditions :( to backup my evidence. During this event my SNR went below 4db, line went quite and re synced at 48Mb on J43 profile. So I rebooted, bringing my line back to what you see in pic snr2. snr1 shows dropping SNR values (looking more like a staircase down).
Question, is this due to DLM or am I on trial with 3db noise margin?
Firmware has changed on my ECI cab.
Title: Re: ECI connected customers, no 3db profile
Post by: skyeci on February 19, 2017, 11:25:35 AM
Not aware of any eci cabs on 3db trial. Recent info said for now they were excluded until perhaps g.inp should ever come back, just have to wait and see.

More like you have noise/fault or crosstalk issues ?? One of my worst crosstalkers when online knocks my ds snr from 6.1 to 4.4, then hitting my attainable upwards of 5mb..  You did already mention you noticed noise on the line..
Title: Re: ECI connected customers, no 3db profile
Post by: parkdale on February 19, 2017, 12:39:34 PM
Audible noise (hiss) on line was due to snr going south! dropped below 4db then following re sync, you could hear when snr changed, noise floor would follow.
The eci cab keeps trying to drag it down :(
Title: Re: ECI connected customers, no 3db profile
Post by: ejs on February 19, 2017, 01:03:22 PM
I think it's more likely that the audible noise on the line was the cause of the falling SNRM, rather than the other way around. Sounds more like a fault, not something the ECI cab is deliberately doing.
Title: Re: ECI connected customers, no 3db profile
Post by: parkdale on February 19, 2017, 01:25:47 PM
Sorry ejs, I should have corrected myself it's srnm that keeps falling , lazy typing :-[
We did have an 'event outside in our road' SSE dug up the pavement, next door but one on our side to fix something, but I don't think this will have any bearing on srnm/noise.
Title: Re: ECI connected customers, no 3db profile
Post by: Black Sheep on February 19, 2017, 02:18:39 PM
The 3dB trial on ECI is expected to be at the beginning of April, as far as I am aware.
Title: Re: ECI connected customers, no 3db profile
Post by: skyeci on February 19, 2017, 03:23:32 PM
The 3dB trial on ECI is expected to be at the beginning of April, as far as I am aware.

Hoping this includes G.INP too?
Title: Re: ECI connected customers, no 3db profile
Post by: j0hn on February 19, 2017, 04:09:31 PM
The 3dB trial on ECI is expected to be at the beginning of April, as far as I am aware.
Sounds like crossed wires? 3dB trial on Huawei happening now. No 3dB on ECI as G.INP is not fixed.

Are OpenReach really going to try rollout G.INP and run a 3dB trial on ECI at the same time?

edit: to add, 3dB on Huawei is due to rollout across the country in April, maybe that?
Title: Re: ECI connected customers, no 3db profile
Post by: Chrysalis on February 19, 2017, 04:56:24 PM
Hoping this includes G.INP too?

the date actually sounds like it will start at the end or towards the end of the g.inp rollout.
Title: Re: ECI connected customers, no 3db profile
Post by: j0hn on February 19, 2017, 05:49:20 PM
Firmware has changed on my ECI cab.
What was the firmware before and after?
I'm only familiar with the firmware being in the format of IFTN:0xb204, which then upgraded to IFTN:0xb206
Also seen a single instance of IFTN:0xd086
Title: Re: ECI connected customers, no 3db profile
Post by: NewtronStar on February 19, 2017, 09:22:38 PM
Surely you could have a SNR margin set to 6 - 5 - 4 - 3dB with interleaving or fastpath if your very close to the cabinet, G.INP is just another error correction tool on the DSLAM it was away to get noisy lines which were always interleaved and put onto something resembling fastpath of course with extra INP
Title: Re: ECI connected customers, no 3db profile
Post by: Chrysalis on February 20, 2017, 06:31:02 AM
newt you can but i expect those profiles to not be used on lines which are deemed unstable so not on interleaved lines and i think with fast path they may not be happy of the risk of high errors which is why i believe ginp to be a requirement

On my line I noticed some of my recent new crosstalk has gone, the affect is not big tho and it benefited the upstream snrm more than downstream.
Title: Re: ECI connected customers, no 3db profile
Post by: skyeci on June 12, 2017, 05:28:21 PM
Interesting. Just seen some graphs claiming to be a sky vdsl on eci cab with a snr of 3.3db on the ds with an increased sync on the ds after the resync. Just happened today. Asked for further stats off the modem to be sure if its the correct cab. ... asked him to check if g.inp is on or not too
Title: Re: ECI connected customers, no 3db profile
Post by: parkdale on June 12, 2017, 06:11:30 PM
Hi John, I have attached VDSL2 pic1, on the left is the previous firmware :-\ as displayed.
2nd pic shows 1 weeks worth of stats, since reset been ruler flat SNRM 6db.
OR did something but I haven't found out what it was (Outside of our property!)
Title: Re: ECI connected customers, no 3db profile
Post by: skyeci on June 12, 2017, 06:50:57 PM
Heres an eci line on 3db by the looks of it. DLM  stepped it down from 6 on the ds today to 3.2.Rise in sync and  max attainable.. no g.inp though which seems a little odd ?
(Not my line)

DSLAM/MSAN type: IFTN:0xb206 / v0xb206
Modem/router firmware: AnnexA version - A2pv6C038m.d24j
DSL mode: VDSL2 Profile 17a
Status: Showtime
Uptime: 3 hours 47 min 35 sec
Resyncs: 0 (since 12 Jun 2017 18:22:48)

Downstream   Upstream
Line attenuation (dB): 16.1   0.0
Signal attenuation (dB):   Not monitored   
Connection speed (kbps):   79994   20000
SNR margin (dB): 3.2   11.3
Power (dBm): 6.4   6.4
Interleave depth: 1419   1
INP: 3.00   0
G.INP: Not enabled   Not enabled
Vectoring status: 5 (VECT_UNCONFIGURED)   

RSCorr/RS (%): 0.0336   0.0002
RSUnCorr/RS (%): 0.0000   0.0000
ES/hour: 0   0





xdslcmd: ADSL driver and PHY status
Status: Showtime
Retrain Reason:   0
Last initialization procedure status:   0
Max:   Upstream rate = 28111 Kbps, Downstream rate = 86620 Kbps
Bearer:   0, Upstream rate = 20000 Kbps, Downstream rate = 79994 Kbps

Link Power State:   L0
Mode:   VDSL2 Annex B
VDSL2 Profile:   Profile 17a
TPS-TC:   PTM Mode(0x0)
Trellis:   U:ON /D:ON
Line Status:   No Defect
Training Status:   Showtime
Down   Up
SNR (dB):   3.2   11.2
Attn(dB):   16.1   0.0
Pwr(dBm):   6.4   6.4






Title: Re: ECI connected customers, no 3db profile
Post by: Chrysalis on June 12, 2017, 09:10:09 PM
that sort of thing can happen with a power cut or similar event, I dont think is any 3db rollout on ECI yet and if there was we should expect a step by step migration so 6db -> 5db > 4db > 3db not 6db > 3db.

I think they will be waiting for g.inp first as well.
Title: Re: ECI connected customers, no 3db profile
Post by: skyeci on June 12, 2017, 09:12:22 PM
Who knows, time will tell.. be worth keeping an eye anyways..

He is now uploading on mydsl under the id "beezer"
Title: Re: ECI connected customers, no 3db profile
Post by: Chrysalis on June 12, 2017, 09:27:16 PM
no historical data for the account, so I am very far from been convinced.

where are those rrdtool graph from? beezer is on 3db already when he first started plotting on mdws.
Title: Re: ECI connected customers, no 3db profile
Post by: underzone on June 12, 2017, 09:38:41 PM
I notice that Beezer is with Sky   ???
Title: Re: ECI connected customers, no 3db profile
Post by: tbailey2 on June 12, 2017, 09:56:27 PM
beezer is on 3db already when he first started plotting on mdws.
His most recent resync was at 14:35 before he started uploading at 19:31 and it was an LOS.
Title: Re: ECI connected customers, no 3db profile
Post by: skyeci on June 12, 2017, 10:23:31 PM
I asked him if he would like to upload as he had not heard of mydslwebstats as I was interested in the line stats after seeing the graphs etc..
Title: Re: ECI connected customers, no 3db profile
Post by: Geekofbroadband on June 16, 2017, 03:57:57 AM
Not sure what this is, maybe my upload just came off being interleaved but my hub rebooted twice around 2-4am and my upload went from 14Mbs to 21Mbs MAX, the actual data rate is 20000.
Download didnt change stayed at 67370 / 67602

noise margin is: 6.2 / 6.1
Title: Re: ECI connected customers, no 3db profile
Post by: j0hn on June 16, 2017, 02:31:03 PM
The lower dB DLM profiles move in 1dB stages. A jump to 3dB is a classic power cut/DSLAM reboot. The DSLAM firmware is still 206 also. I would expect to see a newer firmware testing G.INP for an ECI line to have a 3dB target.

OpenReach skipped ECI users from the 3dB rollout because of the lack of G.INP. Seeing as though they appear to have sorted that out it doesn't make sense they wouldn't wait for the G.INP rollout to apply the 3dB changes.
Title: Re: ECI connected customers, no 3db profile
Post by: smallal on September 03, 2017, 09:58:21 PM
Is there any more news on the ECI G.INP fix?
Obviously this needs sorting before the 3db profile issue can be addressed on ECI cabinets.
Much talk in the spring of a solution being piloted over the summer & possibly rolled out this autumn.
However there's been no reports of anyone having had it turned back on, which is odd if they are actually testing in the field.
Title: Re: ECI connected customers, no 3db profile
Post by: burakkucat on September 04, 2017, 01:17:27 AM
Is there any more news on the ECI G.INP fix?

There is a thread, G.Inp on ECI Possibly Delayed (http://forum.kitz.co.uk/index.php/topic,19408.msg343228.html#msg343228), on that topic in FTTC and FTTH Issues (http://forum.kitz.co.uk/index.php/board,45.0.html).
Title: Re: ECI connected customers, no 3db profile
Post by: Chrysalis on September 04, 2017, 11:13:26 AM
Not going to bug anyone 3 days after the start of autumn, please at least wait till the end of September to see if something starts happening.
Title: Re: ECI connected customers, no 3db profile
Post by: stevebrass on September 04, 2017, 11:32:31 AM
To be fair autumn starts September 22. 
Title: Re: ECI connected customers, no 3db profile
Post by: RayW on September 04, 2017, 03:01:02 PM
To be fair autumn starts September 22.

I always thought it was the 21st (with the 20th being autumn equinox), but either way its still summer ... :o

--

Ray
Title: Re: ECI connected customers, no 3db profile
Post by: smallal on September 04, 2017, 03:17:17 PM
Thanks for the link to the appropriate thread.
As for bugging people too early my point was that testing was supposed to have started during the summer in some 'pilot' areas.
The fact that there haven't been any reports of re-activation from these areas (wherever they are) is worrying if an autumn roll-out is planned.
I shall follow the above link with interest.
Title: Re: ECI connected customers, no 3db profile
Post by: j0hn on September 04, 2017, 04:35:10 PM
Quote
The fact that there haven't been any reports of re-activation from these areas (wherever they are) is worrying if an autumn roll-out is planned.
Not really. The chances of a user on here being on 1 of the few cabinets this will 1st be being tested on is extremely slim. It's more likely it won't be seen till a phased rollout begins.

I think we'll hear news of a rollout before we actually see it.
Title: Re: ECI connected customers, no 3db profile
Post by: ejs on September 04, 2017, 05:45:03 PM
Apparently BTWholesale published on August 16th something about an upcoming "ECI Retransmission Trial". So any trial / testing presumably has hardly started yet.
Title: Re: ECI connected customers, no 3db profile
Post by: Beezer on September 05, 2017, 12:22:21 PM
The lower dB DLM profiles move in 1dB stages. A jump to 3dB is a classic power cut/DSLAM reboot. The DSLAM firmware is still 206 also. I would expect to see a newer firmware testing G.INP for an ECI line to have a 3dB target.

OpenReach skipped ECI users from the 3dB rollout because of the lack of G.INP. Seeing as though they appear to have sorted that out it doesn't make sense they wouldn't wait for the G.INP rollout to apply the 3dB changes.

This may have been caused by a power cut, but now it's happened again and I've been on 3db for 6 weeks or more. G.INP is still not activated.

If you look at the graph below, the 1st blip is the 3db episode mentioned in this thread. It switched back to 6db for a while but has been at 3db for ages now.

(https://www.wheep.co.uk/quality.png)
(https://www.wheep.co.uk/speed.png)
Title: Re: ECI connected customers, no 3db profile
Post by: PhilipD on September 08, 2017, 10:01:00 AM
Hi

Quite a few VDSL lines will work quite happily at 3db, it's a margin after all, just less of one. 

So something could have happened where you've sync'd back at a higher sync speed with the normal 6db margin, perhaps because of a wide area event like a power issue and you sync'd up first.  As other people come back online cross talk increases and the margin decreases, but if your line is happy on 3db it will remain there.

The one way to test if you are on a 3db margin is to power recycle the modem/router and let it resync back up, if it remains at 3db then yes you have a 3db profile on an ECI cabinet, if it's back to around 6db, you didn't.

Regards

Phil
Title: Re: ECI connected customers, no 3db profile
Post by: Bowdon on September 23, 2017, 02:44:08 PM
Looks like a trial is in the works: http://forum.kitz.co.uk/index.php/topic,20352.0.html (http://forum.kitz.co.uk/index.php/topic,20352.0.html)

Quote
The good news is that the operator has been developing a solution for ECI kit and they’ve now informed ISPs that a Proof of Concept is ready to be tested on a subset of related FTTC / VDSL2 lines, which will take place from 20th October 2017. PoC’s are typically designed to test new technical solutions and do not usually reflect a large trial (although a larger trial may follow later if the PoC works well enough).

I wonder who the lucky few will be?
Title: Re: ECI connected customers, no 3db profile
Post by: roseway on September 23, 2017, 03:13:15 PM
I'm not sure that Lucky is the right word. Without G.Inp a lot of ECI users will end up with less stable connections.
Title: Re: ECI connected customers, no 3db profile
Post by: Beezer on October 24, 2017, 10:16:08 AM
Quite a few VDSL lines will work quite happily at 3db, it's a margin after all, just less of one. 

So something could have happened where you've sync'd back at a higher sync speed with the normal 6db margin, perhaps because of a wide area event like a power issue and you sync'd up first.  As other people come back online cross talk increases and the margin decreases, but if your line is happy on 3db it will remain there.

The one way to test if you are on a 3db margin is to power recycle the modem/router and let it resync back up, if it remains at 3db then yes you have a 3db profile on an ECI cabinet, if it's back to around 6db, you didn't

Phil, I wasn't brave enough to deliberately reset my router and potentially lose my better performance, but I have had several more power cuts since the last post & each time it's synched again at less than 3db. It remained stable on 80/20. I guess when I'm officially on a 3db profile all will continue to be well :)

(https://www.wheep.co.uk/speed2.png)

(https://www.wheep.co.uk/quality2.png)
Title: Re: ECI connected customers, no 3db profile
Post by: Bowdon on December 07, 2017, 02:00:04 PM
https://www.ispreview.co.uk/index.php/2017/12/openreach-pause-uk-trial-g-inp-fix-eci-fttc-broadband-cabs.html (https://www.ispreview.co.uk/index.php/2017/12/openreach-pause-uk-trial-g-inp-fix-eci-fttc-broadband-cabs.html)

Quote
In an unsurprising development Openreach has paused a trial of Physical Retransmission ReTX (G.INP) technology for their troublesome ECI based FTTC “fibre broadband” street cabinets. The technology works fine on their Huawei estate but ECI has long been the naughty child.

Looks like we're going to remain in the slow lane longer.
Title: Re: ECI connected customers, no 3db profile
Post by: ktz392837 on December 07, 2017, 02:42:04 PM
Thankfully they say it is just a pause due to Xmas etc it should get an expanded trial in early 2018.  I really hope so as I am on ECI.

If they can get Ginp working correctly I hope there is a chance they will look at 3db.   
Title: Re: ECI connected customers, no 3db profile
Post by: Chrysalis on December 07, 2017, 02:59:33 PM
yeah this is just for the holiday break.
Title: Re: ECI connected customers, no 3db profile
Post by: ktz392837 on January 12, 2018, 05:03:57 PM
Does anyone know if the ECI Ginp trial is back being looked at after the XMAS break or is it too early to know?  Tia
Title: Re: ECI connected customers, no 3db profile
Post by: j0hn on January 12, 2018, 06:36:15 PM
It's not a Christmas break as such,  more of a Winter break.
It's usually late March/April they start these things.
If the smaller trial was running successfully it might start back up.
I'd guess April for any full ahead rollout of anything.
Title: Re: ECI connected customers, no 3db profile
Post by: Bowdon on March 02, 2018, 04:38:06 PM
I noticed there was an update to the link I posted earlier in the thread: https://www.ispreview.co.uk/index.php/2017/12/openreach-pause-uk-trial-g-inp-fix-eci-fttc-broadband-cabs.html (https://www.ispreview.co.uk/index.php/2017/12/openreach-pause-uk-trial-g-inp-fix-eci-fttc-broadband-cabs.html)

Quote
UPDATE 1st Feb 2018
We understand that so far the ECI Retransmission Trial has migrated around 600,000 lines and the official rollout is about to commence across their estate. The xdB (3dB profile) has also been successfully applied to some ECI lines.

I haven't really been following this too closely. But as anyone we know had G.INP applied to their line on ECI?
Title: Re: ECI connected customers, no 3db profile
Post by: skyeci on March 02, 2018, 05:04:11 PM
nope. been checking near on 2 years. no change on mdws since April 2016 except 2 users who held on to eci g.inp. I questioned where these supposed 600,000 lines are but did not get a response.
Title: Re: ECI connected customers, no 3db profile
Post by: GaryW on March 02, 2018, 05:14:08 PM
Apparently the word on the street (via Chrysalis I believe?) is that things should start to happen from next week... (i.e. w/c 4th March)
Title: Re: ECI connected customers, no 3db profile
Post by: ktz392837 on March 02, 2018, 05:27:16 PM
This will hopefully be great news.  I can't wait to read about someone new getting ginp / 3db on an ECI cabinet.  I hope they will roll out quite quickly but if similar to last time I was near the end. 
Title: Re: ECI connected customers, no 3db profile
Post by: Ixel on March 02, 2018, 05:42:57 PM
This will hopefully be great news.  I can't wait to read about someone new getting ginp / 3db on an ECI cabinet.  I hope they will roll out quite quickly but if similar to last time I was near the end.

I assume newer lines will be some of the last to get G.INP? I don't know what order they do it in so just guessing.
Title: Re: ECI connected customers, no 3db profile
Post by: ktz392837 on March 02, 2018, 07:20:30 PM
I think in the past rollout has been exchange based not on age of line. 

They do a specific number of exchanges (associated cabinets) at the same time. 

Hopefully MDWS  users will be able to tell quite quickly once rollout begins.

You never know we may get more information from a knowledgeable member once roll out begins - hopefully that is next week :)
Title: Re: ECI connected customers, no 3db profile
Post by: burakkucat on March 02, 2018, 07:26:37 PM
I am wondering if the roll-out will phased in relation to the fibre head-end exchanges and not the local telephony-serving exchanges?  :-\
Title: Re: ECI connected customers, no 3db profile
Post by: j0hn on March 02, 2018, 09:47:30 PM
Apparently the word on the street (via Chrysalis I believe?) is that things should start to happen from next week... (i.e. w/c 4th March)

I believe that to be the 4th week in March, and not the 4th of March.
Title: Re: ECI connected customers, no 3db profile
Post by: ktz392837 on March 22, 2018, 03:40:14 PM
I wonder if we are going to get some good news next week.  I am crossing my fingers and toes as rollout of ECI Ginp is probably the biggest thing to have happened with respect to FTTC for quite a few years.
Title: Re: ECI connected customers, no 3db profile
Post by: skyeci on March 22, 2018, 03:56:16 PM
lol.. I am not getting my hopes up just yet  ::) - seems like we have been here before..

oh look. my post was nearly a year ago saying let's hope it returns in April 2017!!!... :(
Title: Re: ECI connected customers, no 3db profile
Post by: ktz392837 on March 22, 2018, 04:21:29 PM
Let me dream ;)
Title: Re: ECI connected customers, no 3db profile
Post by: Ixel on March 22, 2018, 04:40:50 PM
I hate to say this but I'm honestly expecting something else will happen again that will cause another delay. In the meantime I'm looking forward to my second VDSL2 service which will be bonded as of early next month, but G.INP on both connections would be icing on the cake :).
Title: Re: ECI connected customers, no 3db profile
Post by: kitz on March 22, 2018, 07:35:07 PM
lol.. I am not getting my hopes up just yet  ::) - seems like we have been here before..
oh look. my post was nearly a year ago saying let's hope it returns in April 2017!!!... :(

This came up this week for the site's "On this Day".    :ouch:

[facebook]https://www.facebook.com/Kitz.co.uk/photos/a.301170340021205.1073741825.153712088100365/634462153358687/?type=1&theater[/facebook]
Title: Re: ECI connected customers, no 3db profile
Post by: MrMike on March 26, 2018, 09:43:07 AM
Mark Jackson, the author of the ISPReview article posted earlier in this thread responded to me on Twitter with the following -

Quote
Still being deployed / tested, might get another update in May.
Title: Re: ECI connected customers, no 3db profile
Post by: Ixel on March 26, 2018, 10:30:43 AM
Mark Jackson, the author of the ISPReview article posted earlier in this thread responded to me on Twitter with the following -

Interesting, I wonder if they've found more problems again and are delaying. Hardly surprises me though, I didn't expect to see it this year to be fair.
Title: Re: ECI connected customers, no 3db profile
Post by: Bowdon on March 26, 2018, 10:36:20 PM
I have a question (as I don't want to assume),

If OR put a G.fast pod on the side of the ECI cabinet will there still be as much interference inside the cabinet as there is now? i.e. do the fibre lines with G.fast get moved from the cabinet to the pod?

IF that was the case then they should prioritise G.fast for ECI cabinets so for those who dont get G.fast should get less cabinet interference?

I wonder what the breakdown is of G.fast pods on ECI compared to Huawei? None of the ECI cabinets around my area are getting G.fast pods.
Title: Re: ECI connected customers, no 3db profile
Post by: ktz392837 on March 26, 2018, 10:48:00 PM
Gfast is added to the phone cabinet not the ECI cabinet. 

I believe Gfast has all the bells and whistles by default (great for eci cab users as it bypasses them) or equivalent eg ginp, vectoring but in some cases especially if you are at the limit of the very short range you will probably still end up with a slower sync.

I too are on eci no gfast in my area.  My phone cabinet is closer than eci cab so it would be shorter distance but I am definitely at the limits of it being beneficial especially as upload would probably be slower than fttc, download possibly marginally better, if speeds are worse gfast will not save me from the dire eci cabs at least for me.

My only hope is I think my line when in a good mood is decent quality so I may get surprised by estimates but unless there is some kind of deal gfast will just be far too expensive to consider over fttc even if it means no more eci cab.
Title: Re: ECI connected customers, no 3db profile
Post by: ejs on March 27, 2018, 06:54:57 PM
If some of the people on an ECI cabinet switched to a G.fast service, then yes, there would be a little less VDSL2 crosstalk amongst the remaining VDSL2 lines. The same would happen if people on the ECI cabinet switched to ADSL or ceased their service and got cable or some alternative full fibre, mobile broadband, fixed wireless or anything else.
Title: Re: ECI connected customers, no 3db profile
Post by: skyeci on March 27, 2018, 09:18:20 PM
Has anyone seen a g.fast cab attached to a pcp that sits next to an eci  fttc cab yet?
Title: Re: ECI connected customers, no 3db profile
Post by: burakkucat on March 27, 2018, 10:32:05 PM
Has anyone seen a g.fast cab attached to a pcp that sits next to an eci  fttc cab yet?

I have checked for one of Walter's clients, located in Ewhurst, Surrey, and is at a measured distance of 169 metres from an ECI equipped cabinet twinned with THCN_P19.

Looking at the BT Broadband Availability Checker, via the telephone number, I see only FTTC and FTTPoD are available. There is no mention of G.9700/1 (G.Fast).
Title: Re: ECI connected customers, no 3db profile
Post by: gt94sss2 on March 27, 2018, 10:57:13 PM
Has anyone seen a g.fast cab attached to a pcp that sits next to an eci  fttc cab yet?

Bowden (http://forum.kitz.co.uk/index.php/topic,20121.msg353813.html#msg353813) asked the same question back in September and j0hn responded that he had seen this.