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Announcements => News Articles => Topic started by: Bowdon on January 31, 2017, 11:20:35 PM

Title: BT Openreach Adding G.fast to “Fibre Broadband” Availability Checker
Post by: Bowdon on January 31, 2017, 11:20:35 PM
BT Openreach Adding G.fast to “Fibre Broadband” Availability Checker (http://www.ispreview.co.uk/index.php/2017/01/bt-openreach-adding-g-fast-fibre-broadband-availability-checker.html)

Quote
Openreach (BT) has confirmed to ISPreview.co.uk that their Fibre Availability Checker will tomorrow be updated to enable the inclusion of a G.fast order journey, but you shouldn’t expect to get a lot of detail. Plus the coverage of their “ultra fast” service is very limited.

The new ‘up to’ 330Mbps capable G.fast (ITU G.9700/9701) broadband technology is currently being deployed into a 138,000 premise strong pilot at 17 locations across the UK and this should be ready by the end of March 2017. However the commercial roll-out, which aims to cover 10 million premises by 2020 and then “most of the UK” by 2025 (including FTTP coverage), isn’t due to begin until the last half of this year.

It feels like Christmas eve.. are we going to be lucky to be in the first wave or not  :)
Title: Re: BT Openreach Adding G.fast to “Fibre Broadband” Availability Checker
Post by: niemand on February 01, 2017, 01:49:05 PM
This will only provide any feedback for those in the 17 pilot areas. Everyone else will not receive any further information.
Title: Re: BT Openreach Adding G.fast to “Fibre Broadband” Availability Checker
Post by: Ronski on February 01, 2017, 04:14:54 PM
Here's a couple of lucky ones in Gillingham, note they are on two different cabinets.

Title: Re: BT Openreach Adding G.fast to “Fibre Broadband” Availability Checker
Post by: Chrysalis on February 01, 2017, 05:20:11 PM
so the first one has a min speed only 20mbit higher, and that is a reasonable guide I think to how my line would operate.

My low clean rate is currently just 62 on vdsl (keep drifting down, presumably with 20th percentile dropping with copper pair degradation and crosstalk issues), that line with a 12mbit higher estimated vdsl speed does not have a impressive g.fast estimate. The estimated upstream rate is actually lower than vdsl, and the estimated downstream rate is not very impressive.  This is the issue with g.fast not been able to use both the adsl and vdsl frequencies. Poor tech but cheap to deploy.
Title: Re: BT Openreach Adding G.fast to “Fibre Broadband” Availability Checker
Post by: ip75 on February 01, 2017, 05:24:33 PM
On that first line, you'd actually take a speed cut on the upstream by switching to G.fast. And that's on a line that does 80/20 on VDSL. The estimate for VDSL looks almost identical to mine, which is only a 250m line.
Title: Re: BT Openreach Adding G.fast to “Fibre Broadband” Availability Checker
Post by: Chrysalis on February 01, 2017, 05:30:36 PM
also I wonder how fast the vdsl line could go if uncapped on that first estimate as vdsl is capable of higher than 80mbit speeds.
Title: Re: BT Openreach Adding G.fast to “Fibre Broadband” Availability Checker
Post by: Bowdon on February 01, 2017, 06:33:15 PM
Hmm why would the upload speeds drop on the first one?

I thought upload speed was always more stable than download speeds?
Title: Re: BT Openreach Adding G.fast to “Fibre Broadband” Availability Checker
Post by: Chrysalis on February 01, 2017, 06:40:55 PM
its not like adsl where upload had the best frequencies.
Title: Re: BT Openreach Adding G.fast to “Fibre Broadband” Availability Checker
Post by: highpriest on February 01, 2017, 09:28:14 PM
On that first line, you'd actually take a speed cut on the upstream by switching to G.fast. And that's on a line that does 80/20 on VDSL. The estimate for VDSL looks almost identical to mine, which is only a 250m line.

That poor upstream speed estimate is quite disappointing. My line is around 300m and theoretically at least, it should be possible to hit 300+ Mbps at that distance. But if that estimate is accurate, I'm probably looking at something similar when G.fast rolls into town. I'll pass I think.
Title: Re: BT Openreach Adding G.fast to “Fibre Broadband” Availability Checker
Post by: S.Stephenson on February 01, 2017, 10:42:41 PM
A thing to remember is all of the gear out in the field now is 1rev stuff, revision 3 gear should allow 300mbps at 300m.
Title: Re: BT Openreach Adding G.fast to “Fibre Broadband” Availability Checker
Post by: displaced on February 01, 2017, 11:32:22 PM
Hmm.  Makes me wonder how my ~650m line (20.5 dB downstream attenuation) will fare.

I live in an area with very high Virgin Media uptake.  Got a great deal on Infinity when we moved here 4.5 years ago since BT were desperate to put a dent in VM.

...but it seems that G.fast won't be something that'll give me anything like VM speeds. Still, VM would be much more expensive I suppose!
Title: Re: BT Openreach Adding G.fast to “Fibre Broadband” Availability Checker
Post by: ktz392837 on February 01, 2017, 11:39:37 PM
I pay for a 80 down and 20 up service (actual 55/16) due to increased upload speed offered by the package.  If gfast means upload will be slower that is madness if BT are trying to sell it as a better product.
Title: Re: BT Openreach Adding G.fast to “Fibre Broadband” Availability Checker
Post by: Bowdon on February 02, 2017, 10:51:08 AM
I think G.fast will come in to its own when it gets pushed out to the pods.

I can understand why BT are attaching pods to cabinets, that they are doing things in stages. But as we've said before thats only going to suit the people already getting 80/20. I don't really understand that decision in a commercial sense as I'm sure they won't get many buys from that.

When it gets pushed out to the pods then the upload speed will improve as well as the download speed as we'll be physically closer to fibre.
Title: Re: BT Openreach Adding G.fast to “Fibre Broadband” Availability Checker
Post by: niemand on February 02, 2017, 02:57:02 PM
The current rollout is as much a political as a commercial one. Needing to get 'ultrafast' out there to as many homes as possible as quickly as possible.

It serves that purpose fine. Relatively cheap, very fast, and ticks the >100Mb and to a lesser extent >300Mb boxes.

It's not a speed competition with VM. For headline speeds they will lose right up until they deploy FTTP.
Title: Re: BT Openreach Adding G.fast to “Fibre Broadband” Availability Checker
Post by: Ronski on February 02, 2017, 03:53:55 PM
Here's a thread on TBB

http://forums.thinkbroadband.com/fibre/f/4527806-dsl-checker-gfast.html
Title: Re: BT Openreach Adding G.fast to “Fibre Broadband” Availability Checker
Post by: ktz392837 on February 02, 2017, 06:04:30 PM
Is there any updated estimated gfast speed graphs using line length and attenuation?
Title: Re: BT Openreach Adding G.fast to “Fibre Broadband” Availability Checker
Post by: S.Stephenson on February 02, 2017, 06:11:59 PM
Here is one from Alcatel.

I've also attached one from an article which is an estimate of what G.Fast may achieve with the new standards in development.

Source for 2nd graphhttp://www.electronics-eetimes.com/design-center/advanced-simulations-gfast-vectoring-co/page/0/2 (http://www.electronics-eetimes.com/design-center/advanced-simulations-gfast-vectoring-co/page/0/2)
Title: Re: BT Openreach Adding G.fast to “Fibre Broadband” Availability Checker
Post by: highpriest on February 02, 2017, 06:19:54 PM
A thing to remember is all of the gear out in the field now is 1rev stuff, revision 3 gear should allow 300mbps at 300m.

But chances are, the first gen kit will never get replaced so you almost don't want to be part of the initial roll-out ::)
Title: Re: BT Openreach Adding G.fast to “Fibre Broadband” Availability Checker
Post by: S.Stephenson on February 02, 2017, 06:23:34 PM
Hopefully BT will replace the older ones this time as they don't have many ports.

If not then its just typical BT :D
Title: Re: BT Openreach Adding G.fast to “Fibre Broadband” Availability Checker
Post by: Chrysalis on February 02, 2017, 07:10:34 PM
so the modified improvements are not significant especially at the higher distances.
Title: Re: BT Openreach Adding G.fast to “Fibre Broadband” Availability Checker
Post by: ktz392837 on February 02, 2017, 07:40:02 PM
Those graphs are interesting for me I think my line would need a closer pod as at 400-500m I would be at the limit of the technology. 

Would anyone be happy to guess as some attenuation figures for the line lengths?  Would 16-17db be at the 400-500m end?

Looks like I will be stuck with my ECI cab for many years to come.

Is there any information on how closer pods may be deployed?  I can "see" 3 cabs from my house but typically I am connected to the furthest away one.
Title: Re: BT Openreach Adding G.fast to “Fibre Broadband” Availability Checker
Post by: S.Stephenson on February 02, 2017, 07:54:06 PM
Well my line is 14.4db and that is roughly 350m which makes G.fast pretty crap...

However because they are attaching the G.Fast pods to the old cabinet a g.fast line would be 300m for me.

In regards to which cabinet it will come from it will be the one you are currently connected to, the pods would be standalone further down the line and would have nothing to do with preexisting cabs.
Title: Re: BT Openreach Adding G.fast to “Fibre Broadband” Availability Checker
Post by: Ronski on February 02, 2017, 08:00:58 PM
Would anyone be happy to guess as some attenuation figures for the line lengths?  Would 16-17db be at the 400-500m end?

I don't think guessing is much use as they just vary too much, my line is 450 to 500 meter and is 21db, current sync is 47.7/6.2
Title: Re: BT Openreach Adding G.fast to “Fibre Broadband” Availability Checker
Post by: Bowdon on February 03, 2017, 11:41:12 AM
Well my line is 14.4db and that is roughly 350m which makes G.fast pretty crap...

However because they are attaching the G.Fast pods to the old cabinet a g.fast line would be 300m for me.

In regards to which cabinet it will come from it will be the one you are currently connected to, the pods would be standalone further down the line and would have nothing to do with preexisting cabs.

I think its going to be pretty crap for most people. The people who would benefit most, and most likely to pay for it, won't get the benefit much.

I do wonder how BT came to the economic decision about putting nodes next to the cabinet is worth it.

Also what happens if your in a grey area at 300m and order G.fast to get an extra 30Mbps.. then 12 months later they put a node 100m from your house, will they re-route you to the node? Because its going to be a pain in the butt if you're then stuck at 300m because you bought early on.
Title: Re: BT Openreach Adding G.fast to “Fibre Broadband” Availability Checker
Post by: Black Sheep on February 03, 2017, 12:31:13 PM
I think its going to be pretty crap for most people. The people who would benefit most, and most likely to pay for it, won't get the benefit much.

I do wonder how BT came to the economic decision about putting nodes next to the cabinet is worth it.

Also what happens if your in a grey area at 300m and order G.fast to get an extra 30Mbps.. then 12 months later they put a node 100m from your house, will they re-route you to the node? Because its going to be a pain in the butt if you're then stuck at 300m because you bought early on.

My personal guess would be because of the necessity to power the G.fast kit ?? To 'forward power' to remote deeper nodes, will require spare capacity in the ongoing D-side cables. The side-pod solution is the most obvious choice for the time being.
Title: Re: BT Openreach Adding G.fast to “Fibre Broadband” Availability Checker
Post by: highpriest on February 03, 2017, 12:45:07 PM
Wasn't there a plan to power the pods using electricity from customers?
Title: Re: BT Openreach Adding G.fast to “Fibre Broadband” Availability Checker
Post by: j0hn on February 03, 2017, 01:32:50 PM
Wasn't there a plan to power the pods using electricity from customers?
I would be very surprised at that. I wouldn't be keen on the possibility that my node could be turned off because old Mr Smith next door was having done work done.
They would need a feed to tap into (like a lamppost) or unused D-Side pairs.
FTTrn trials main issue was power. It cost just as much to power a small node as it did for an entire DSLAM. Last I read OpenReach were trying to see if it was possible to aggregate power between various nodes, but I've no idea if that was successful.
Title: Re: BT Openreach Adding G.fast to “Fibre Broadband” Availability Checker
Post by: highpriest on February 03, 2017, 02:17:11 PM
Read it here.

https://arstechnica.co.uk/information-technology/2016/01/bt-reveals-300mbps-g-fast-trial-routers-some-with-reverse-power/
Title: Re: BT Openreach Adding G.fast to “Fibre Broadband” Availability Checker
Post by: Black Sheep on February 03, 2017, 02:29:02 PM
From what little I've read and can recall from memory ............. the 'reverse power' situation is far from favourable as it is reliant on EU's.
The 'forward power' method and the use of stand-alone 'power-pillars' are the preferred method.

Now, that said it could all have changed as I've not kept my ear close to the ground recently. Got fed up with it all.
Title: Re: BT Openreach Adding G.fast to “Fibre Broadband” Availability Checker
Post by: j0hn on February 03, 2017, 02:46:44 PM
Rings a faint bell after reading that. Still sounds like a horrible idea to me. Relying on a single domestic supply for a group of customers broadband is asking for trouble. Forget to put a few pennies on the meter and bye bye broadband. Switch off the modem and go on holiday and again bye bye broadband.

Perhaps workable if the power was generated between all on the node and would continue to operate if 1 or 2 went offline. Might be ok for unique locations where there are absolutely no other power sources available. Bad idea for large scale deployments imo!
Title: Re: BT Openreach Adding G.fast to “Fibre Broadband” Availability Checker
Post by: Chrysalis on February 03, 2017, 03:41:41 PM
When I read up on it last year, the power is pooled from all customers, and gets rebalanced automatically when a user goes offline.

So in theory the only time it loses power is when there is no customers connected, I assume there is also some kind of battery to allow it to respond to connection requests when there is currently no customers active.
Title: Re: BT Openreach Adding G.fast to “Fibre Broadband” Availability Checker
Post by: highpriest on February 03, 2017, 04:08:44 PM
When I read up on it last year, the power is pooled from all customers, and gets rebalanced automatically when a user goes offline.

That's right. This was my understanding too.
Title: Re: BT Openreach Adding G.fast to “Fibre Broadband” Availability Checker
Post by: j0hn on February 03, 2017, 09:02:54 PM
That article is poorly worded then, and suggested the opposite
Quote
There are a few ways to power these G.fast nodes, but one of the simplest is to take some power from a nearby G.fast customer. There hasn't been much discussion of it yet, but presumably Openreach would repay the home or business owner for the electricity consumed in this way.
should be customers and owners.
That's actually workable. I thought the prospect of using a single EU's power was just plain stupid.
Title: Re: BT Openreach Adding G.fast to “Fibre Broadband” Availability Checker
Post by: niemand on February 04, 2017, 04:09:28 PM
I do wonder how BT came to the economic decision about putting nodes next to the cabinet is worth it.

Cheapest, fastest way to hit the target they set themselves. The target is nothing to do with how many customers get uplifted by what percentage, it's purely about getting >100Mb to 10 million premises.

Also what happens if your in a grey area at 300m and order G.fast to get an extra 30Mbps.. then 12 months later they put a node 100m from your house, will they re-route you to the node? Because its going to be a pain in the butt if you're then stuck at 300m because you bought early on.

Either everyone or no-one goes onto the new node. Can't have pairs in the same d-side bundle getting G.fast signals from different nodes. With this in mind it would need some discussion with CPs and Ofcom to allow for forced migrations or for G.fast to simply never go deeper into the network.
Title: Re: BT Openreach Adding G.fast to “Fibre Broadband” Availability Checker
Post by: Bowdon on February 04, 2017, 09:36:59 PM
Either everyone or no-one goes onto the new node. Can't have pairs in the same d-side bundle getting G.fast signals from different nodes. With this in mind it would need some discussion with CPs and Ofcom to allow for forced migrations or for G.fast to simply never go deeper into the network.

It'll be interesting how they actually link people up to the nodes when the nodes get pushed out. I wonder if the fibre will go from the cabinet to the node, or go from node to node in a link?

I guess if they linked together then by default if the 2nd node was closer to your house on the pole your line goes to.. then they would have to link you through that one.. though I guess its going to come down to which poles I guess.

It'll be interesting if BT hit enough 100Mb connections with the current nodes being so close to the cabinet. The people around the cabinet are the least likely to upgrade to G.fast.
Title: Re: BT Openreach Adding G.fast to “Fibre Broadband” Availability Checker
Post by: Chrysalis on February 04, 2017, 09:54:17 PM
I think the target only needs to be availability not signups.
Title: Re: BT Openreach Adding G.fast to “Fibre Broadband” Availability Checker
Post by: niemand on February 05, 2017, 01:11:04 AM
Yes indeed. Target is premises passed. The more they can sell the better of course but the very limited capacity of the nodes, either 32 or 48 ports initially, maximum 96, should tell you about the level of uptake expected.

There are options in the future of course. Pair bonding will increase range and speeds, as will advances in power and modulation density, but be under no allusion that G.fast via the cabinet pod is a temporary stopgap.
Title: Re: BT Openreach Adding G.fast to “Fibre Broadband” Availability Checker
Post by: stevebrass on February 05, 2017, 04:06:02 AM
That article is poorly worded then, and suggested the oppositeshould be customers and owners.
That's actually workable. I thought the prospect of using a single EU's power was just plain stupid.
 
I can't see energy being monitored and reimbursed to consumer. More likely the agreement for using G.Fast will give BT the right to use energy from the consumer.
Title: Re: BT Openreach Adding G.fast to “Fibre Broadband” Availability Checker
Post by: gt94sss2 on February 05, 2017, 07:26:13 AM
I think its going to be pretty crap for most people. The people who would benefit most, and most likely to pay for it, won't get the benefit much.

I do wonder how BT came to the economic decision about putting nodes next to the cabinet is worth it.

Its all about being able to provide a service at prices that enough people will be willing to pay for it.

BT recently said (about their initial roll out) in their Q3 results Q&A (http://www.btplc.com/Sharesandperformance/Quarterlyresults/index.htm)* that:

Quote
The way to think about G.fast is that we leverage the infrastructure that is already deployed for VDSLs. So we leverage the backhaul from the cabinet. We leverage the power supply. Our costs are really just the costs of the new G.fast box.

and on g.fast rollout/performance itself, Clive Seeley said:

Quote
We're rolling out those side pods on the cabinets a quite a place now we have the production hardware, we have the production firmware and we're building a footprint quite quickly now. The first pilot customers the indications are that the performance of the product over the new equipment is pretty much spot on what we had predicted from the labs in the earlier few trials and I am very pleased with that. So I'm very pleased with where we stand right now on G.fast.

(*different answers at approximately 40 and 50 minutes into the call)